[Enhancement] Future Legion Resources

[miffy23]

It remains to be seen. I'm optimistic but the mastery nerf was pretty nasty. At the very least it will help significantly with the Doom Winds synergy.

I think it's too early to tell. Right now it's too low for sure, but with the additional incoming changes it may be just right. It was definitely too much beforehand, Maelstrom seemed almost irrelevant.

[Guchie]

It doesn't take much to see that they went too far tbh. Even going Rockbiter spam you don't have enough maelstrom for talents like Overcharge to fit into your main rotation. They have a lot of tuning to do.

This is what is so infuriating, they didnt change the numbers they completed gutted the playstyle of build and dump, now its build and build and build and build and OH GOD YES I CAN USE AN ABILITY.

Stormbringer procs can end up being absolutely useless to you, nothing says fun like that.

[miffy23]

Why are so many here reacting as if this were the final iteration? This build is literally 2-3 iterations away from their internal one, and they've already announced that Maelstrom generation as it is now is not intended. Chill.

[-aiko-]

Things change, and we all realize that, but the current build is really really bad. As long as its constructive criticism it's important that we express our displeasure so they know what aspects we don't like. We also don't have anything else to talk about right now as this is the only build we have to work with. It wouldn't do us any good to just not play the spec and wait for the next iteration. Testers gon' test.

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Stormbringer procs can end up being absolutely useless to you, nothing says fun like that.

To be completely honest with you, I kind of dread getting Stormbringer procs haha. I'm like "shit, there goes all that maelstrom I built up".

[valkhy]

Why are so many here reacting as if this were the final iteration? This build is literally 2-3 iterations away from their internal one, and they've already announced that Maelstrom generation as it is now is not intended. Chill.

True they did say about windfury will be on MWeapon.

The 25 -> 20 new generation on boulder fist isn't really the problem. It's really about windfury i think.

But they also said they intend to have Boulderfist builds being Maelstrom starved and to have empty global cooldown which is in my opinion the worst idea ever that could happen for the spec. If feels like a pain that you have nothing to do (not even thinking about miss Auto Attacks and so maelstrom weapon).
Why so? It's isn't making the spec "slow" it's just boring to cap some definite number of Maelstrom do start using an ability.

It also make a lot of talent difficult (or not worthy) to use (Tempest, hailstorm, Earthen spike) due to this starving situation.

Enh being an Afk AA spec with boulderfist build is really a bad idea.

I don't know if it's for balancing the lvl-15 talent row but i don't really like smashing a filler 80-90% of time so you can finally use an ability( Yeah Much success.Such accomplishment.WOOT), creating boring rotation. Boulderfist should offer an decent gameplay for people who doesn't want this sort of thing. I think Enh was before this build a great spec who needed to be tuned off on some damage but now it's really need some focus attention cause i don't know if people will like the direction taken by Blizzard.

So just wait next build guys, stop the whine we all know the situation even blizzard know. If next build it still the same problem then we have to tell them DECENTLY that it's not good to play this sort of gameplay. Pretty plz

[Deleted]

Before the patch playstyle was fun but noob friendly. Now you can't use every spell you have whenever you want, but instead you have to think what you are doing. That's fun either. Where is the fun when sometimes you couldn't prevent Maelstrom capping. Stupid as hell, but it's my own opinion. Now you have to always check your Maelstrom progress and use spells acordingly.

ps. I still wonder why people, even if everyone know there gonna be Maelstrom from WF procs, ignore it and stubbornly cry over Maelstrom starving. Wait for beta update.

[Deleted]

But they also said they intend to have Boulderfist builds being Maelstrom starved and to have empty global cooldown which is in my opinion the worst idea ever that could happen for the spec. If feels like a pain that you have nothing to do (not even thinking about miss Auto Attacks and so maelstrom weapon).
Why so? It's isn't making the spec "slow" it's just boring to cap some definite number of Maelstrom do start using an ability.

It also make a lot of talent difficult (or not worthy) to use (Tempest, hailstorm, Earthen spike) due to this starving situation.

Enh being an Afk AA spec with boulderfist build is really a bad idea.

I don't know why people still complaining about boulderfist?! It's intended for a playstyle where you not have to press something every gcd. And there are enough players who want's exactly this style of gameplay, for these players this talent was made. If you like to press something every gcd than don't take boulderfist. So people stop complaining about this!

[Guchie]

ps. I still wonder why people, even if everyone know there gonna be Maelstrom from WF procs, ignore it and stubbornly cry over Maelstrom starving. Wait for beta update.

Spoken like a person who never played Shaman before.

"Why cry abotu damage in beta for WoD, we know they will look at it"
I didnt play Mop so apologies
"Why cry about lack of a proper execution, finisher, anything other than simple rotation whack-a-mole dps that is subpar, they'll fix it"

Shaman has been in "fix it" mode since TBC. At least enhance has. Always picked last, always forgotten and usually shit on by Blizzard ignoring all facts, evidence and outcries from the people who play the class.

If you played WoD launch, just remember this quote going into it, "You dont know how overpowered you really are".

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I don't know why people still complaining about boulderfist?! It's intended for a playstyle where you not have to press something every gcd. And there are enough players who want's exactly this style of gameplay, for these players this talent was made. If you like to press something every gcd than don't take boulderfist. So people stop complaining about this!

The only way rockbiter should be better is if we are absolutely starved for maelstrom and NEED to spam rockbiter to stay up.

SO thats what they did, instead of altering boulderfist alone by removing a charge, or increasing duration or anything else they butchered the class so it NEEDs rockbiter to do anything.

[garonne]

This is what is so infuriating, they didnt change the numbers they completed gutted the playstyle of build and dump, now its build and build and build and build and OH GOD YES I CAN USE AN ABILITY.

Stormbringer procs can end up being absolutely useless to you, nothing says fun like that.

before it was build, dump, dump, dump, build. in this case you don't need a resource.

the class is balanced around 110, not 100. with the minimal amount of haste a lvl 110 pvp character has it feels fine. once you have the proper gear and WF starting to proc maelstrom we'll have a lot more. again, the maelstrom change just accounts for using less lava lash. the mastery change is separate.

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True they did say about windfury will be on MWeapon.

The 25 -> 20 new generation on boulder fist isn't really the problem. It's really about windfury i think.

But they also said they intend to have Boulderfist builds being Maelstrom starved and to have empty global cooldown which is in my opinion the worst idea ever that could happen for the spec. If feels like a pain that you have nothing to do (not even thinking about miss Auto Attacks and so maelstrom weapon).
Why so? It's isn't making the spec "slow" it's just boring to cap some definite number of Maelstrom do start using an ability.

It also make a lot of talent difficult (or not worthy) to use (Tempest, hailstorm, Earthen spike) due to this starving situation.

Enh being an Afk AA spec with boulderfist build is really a bad idea.

I don't know if it's for balancing the lvl-15 talent row but i don't really like smashing a filler 80-90% of time so you can finally use an ability( Yeah Much success.Such accomplishment.WOOT), creating boring rotation. Boulderfist should offer an decent gameplay for people who doesn't want this sort of thing. I think Enh was before this build a great spec who needed to be tuned off on some damage but now it's really need some focus attention cause i don't know if people will like the direction taken by Blizzard.

So just wait next build guys, stop the whine we all know the situation even blizzard know. If next build it still the same problem then we have to tell them DECENTLY that it's not good to play this sort of gameplay. Pretty plz

million of players, cant please everyone. ppl like that playstyle, all who don't have hot hands and windsong.

[wordup]

Let me be frank here, I think that a lot of people want to have their cake and eat it too.

You want the benefits of frontloaded MP and increased damage via taking Boulderfist, but you also want to be GCD locked as if you didn't take it. That makes the choice irrelevant, you like it because it's broken, and masking that as some arbitrary "feel" argument is plain as day. If it was truly about "feel", you'd be campaigning to have the alternative choices on the tier brought level with Boulderfist, not let Boulderfist effectively be a better Rockbiter in every possible way with zero downsides.

Ultimately, I think a lot of those who said it was a "great playstyle" before in which Maelstrom was completely worthless would either find it progressively more overwhelming with gear (assuming you didn't play with that properly), in which you get so much resource, so many procs, and have to juggle so many things you simply cannot do with the GCDs available to you that the chance for error rises significantly, or; they'd enjoy it because it's completely broken to be spamming a finisher every global and would be displeased at the inevitable nerf to the base spell which would accompany it.

The MP generation is not good right now, it's still however playable in particular from trying it in LFR it wasn't unreasonable with a Boulderfist/Hailstorm build which is one of the more GCD unlocked specs, it does however encourage pooling instead of dumping significantly (and I suspect there are very few who spent time with the pooling style from early Alpha when SS was 60 MP, so transitioning is likely much harder for you guys). I do, however, strongly agree with their choice to bring Windfury back, and I think that will provide a mid-point in generation.

If you want it to go back to how it was you'll have no support from myself or many others, from a TC and design perspective it makes no logical sense to dilute procs as significant as Stormbringer as well as your resource to be literally meaningless (which it was).

[garonne]

its not good because we wont be able to utilize certain talents to their full benefit and turning enhance into a slow class doesnt feel right, we are moving closer to the rng shamans we used to be and thats not fun. its what most enhance shamans wanted gone in the first place

you can select the other two talents for the spammy playstyle. the only time you have problem is when you have procs back to back to back. otherwise, manage your resource a bit better. plus its going to be better when windfury procs maelstrom.

[miffy23]

Let me be frank here, I think that a lot of people want to have their cake and eat it too.

You want the benefits of frontloaded MP and increased damage via taking Boulderfist, but you also want to be GCD locked as if you didn't take it. That makes the choice irrelevant, you like it because it's broken, and masking that as some arbitrary "feel" argument is plain as day. If it was truly about "feel", you'd be campaigning to have the alternative choices on the tier brought level with Boulderfist, not let Boulderfist effectively be a better Rockbiter in every possible way with zero downsides.

Ultimately, I think a lot of those who said it was a "great playstyle" before in which Maelstrom was completely worthless would either find it progressively more overwhelming with gear (assuming you didn't play with that properly), in which you get so much resource, so many procs, and have to juggle so many things you simply cannot do with the GCDs available to you that the chance for error rises significantly, or; they'd enjoy it because it's completely broken to be spamming a finisher every global and would be displeased at the inevitable nerf to the base spell which would accompany it.

The MP generation is not good right now, it's still however playable in particular from trying it in LFR it wasn't unreasonable with a Boulderfist/Hailstorm build which is one of the more GCD unlocked specs, it does however encourage pooling instead of dumping significantly (and I suspect there are very few who spent time with the pooling style from early Alpha when SS was 60 MP, so transitioning is likely much harder for you guys). I do, however, strongly agree with their choice to bring Windfury back, and I think that will provide a mid-point in generation.

If you want it to go back to how it was you'll have no support from myself or many others, from a TC and design perspective it makes no logical sense to dilute procs as significant as Stormbringer as well as your resource to be literally meaningless (which it was).

All of this.
MP generation was ludicrous previously, and will be in a good place where our resource MATTERS and you can actually mess up once Windfury changes are in place.

[garonne]

I must have shit for luck then, because I don't seem to get shit for WF procs.

1 proc of WF is 3 hits, doomwinds makes every main hand proc WF for 6 sec. just the first 6 secs of combat if you use doomwinds will result in 75 maelstrom (auto attacks and WF). windsong increases this, and if you use rockbiter 2 or 3 times that's an another 26 MS (gathering of maelstrom) so that's a total of 101 in 6 secs. when strombringer procs you get 10% attack speed for 3 secs (increasing auto attacks to give more maelstrom; miniscule but its a bonus).

after this manage your maelstrom, manage procs, and doomwinds is every 45 secs(as well as windsong that also increases maelstrom gain)(hot hand gives free lava lash)(and boulderfist will give open gcds).

sn: forgot spirit wolves (raptor) that gives a huge influx of MS as well every 2 minutes(which I would prefer be 20 sec duration but that's just a personal gripe)

sn 2: and ascendance has a passive maelstrom gain (though I wish it went back to resetting stormstrike)

[Guchie]

you can select the other two talents for the spammy playstyle. the only time you have problem is when you have procs back to back to back. otherwise, manage your resource a bit better. plus its going to be better when windfury procs maelstrom.

Everyone says this but has anyone actually done the calculations?

I did a legion invasion with Skada up and assuming Skada isn't a gd liar heres what my hits looked like.

Rockbiter 351
AA 571
Windfury 79

More data would be better but I am too lazy to do my rotation on a dummy for 5 minutes or so, so if someone else would like to I'd love to punch in the numbers.

But for the final boss in phase 4 my numbers looked like this

Rockbiter76
Attack 128
windfury 16

Assuming windfury would generate 5 MP per attack Rockbiter generates 10 MP and any AA(that hits right?) generates 5 MP.

Windfury generating MP would give an extra 6.2 percent maelstrom over the course of the legion invasion
Windury would generating 5.7 percent more MP vs the final phase of the invasion.

If I'm wrong please correct me cause this does not sound good.


If you want numbers vs Phase 4 boss WF procs would generate 80 maelstrom total, during the entire invasion wiould generate 395 total.

[garonne]

classes are balance around being lvl 110... it kinda sucks but its just the way it is and over the next two year's you'll spend over 95% of the time being lvl 110 anyway so to worry about before is kind of a waste (past a certain point).

with that said, i did several 5 minute test on the lvl 110 pvp realm and i was getting about 230 auto attack hits with 183 MF hits. the stats on that character (mastery,haste,crit) suck with the template. your numbers seem extremely low.

[wordup]

Everyone says this but has anyone actually done the calculations?

I did a legion invasion with Skada up and assuming Skada isn't a gd liar heres what my hits looked like.

Demon Invasion on the PTR really doesn't seem like it provides relevant information when it comes to 110 balance.

When it comes to calculations, I have a spreadsheet calculator here which I've been using to estimate some things (though spreadsheets inherently rely on using averages which doesn't strictly account for RNG).

If you go through the sheet there's 300~ regular Windfury MP coming in, alongside 475 MP from Doom Winds. Just the passive MW alone generates just over 1k MP through autos ergo adding in WF is a significant bump in part due to Doom Winds.

[BiggestNoob]

If you go through the sheet there's 300~ regular Windfury MP coming in, alongside 475 MP from Doom Winds. Just the passive MW alone generates just over 1k MP through autos ergo adding in WF is a significant bump in part due to Doom Winds.

There's something quite wrong with that calculation. Passive generation is nowhere close to that high.

Let me be frank here, I think that a lot of people want to have their cake and eat it too.

No, it's just obvious that simply changing our builder with MP generation appropriate to validate other talent options and allow for things like HS/LL to be used at all would not be sufficient to result in open GCDs consistently.

The only way to possibly cause this is to lower MP generation to the point that the only GCD locked spec is Rockbiter because all you do is push Rockbiter. Before even a Rockbiter spec didn't spend most of its time hitting Rockbiter either.

That's what's not feeling right, spending an excessive amount of time waiting for a spender to get us MP, meaning Stormbringer feels bad and every other MP spender is awkward or a nonstarter. That's just bad design. It wasn't broken, Blizzard just didn't make other talents to pair with Boulderfist properly to allow for a slower gameplay with open GCDs.

[wordup]

There's something quite wrong with that calculation. Passive generation is nowhere close to that high.

You're welcome to find and correct the error then, nothing in the sheet is hidden. There are 210~ calculated auto attacks, each generate 5 MP, that presents 1k passive generation over a 5 minute fight.

[Advent]

So, we're supposed to feel like shit until level 110? I think it might be better for Blizzard to increase maelstrom generation to 110 levels somehow, that progressively gets weaker until level cap. This way, leveling doesn't seem like a slog through build x4, spend. And don't discount "feel" so easily. Many of us simply felt like the spec felt best when we had buttons to press that were spenders without feeling like you were being punished for it. I'm hoping there will be some kind of balance, because right now I feel like warriors with no gear did before they "fixed" rage generation.

[BiggestNoob]

You're welcome to find and correct the error then, nothing in the sheet is hidden. There are 210~ calculated auto attacks, each generate 5 MP, that presents 1k passive generation over a 5 minute fight.

Sorry, I misread what you said. I thought you were talking about the base maelstrom generation from WF which is ~95% coming from DW. It'll be well under 1 MP/s in the next patch so 5-6 MP/s seems accurate.

There are issues with the calculations but it has more to do with overvaluing certain things due to averages being no different than assuming perfect RNG spacing which doesn't happen in reality.