Furious Slash is excessive and unnecessary

[Archimtiros]

Indeed, IMO Fury on Beta/PTR is the best it's been since at least WotLK and the OP's changes would hurt that (Inner Rage is awesome). Of course that's just my opinion based on what I like, but that's all this thread is, opinions based on what people like.

It's definitely an improvement, though I wouldn't call it the best. Mechanically speaking, it's definitely not as smooth as SoO (see, that's objectivity over subjectivity), though you can certainly say you like it more than SoO (subjectivity over objectivity).

Though you've never quite said why you dislike my suggestion or how it would change that. The only argument against I saw is that you don't like the fact that Inner Rage would no longer be an Execute strength individual attack. I suppose I can understand enjoying the big hit (everyone loved SoO Storm Bolt), but I personally don't put too much weight on the damage of one individual hit - I'm far more concerned with the cumulative effect of DPS. Raging Blow would still very much have a place in the rotation.

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The issue is though he's 100% right, you formed a conclusion based on your personal opinion and then sought out data to try and back it up.

Yes I can understand it may be annoying having a filler ability that isn't required as much if you take talents that make it less used (I.E Wrecking Ball) but that's due to personal choices you've made. None of the data you have gathered supports FS being bad/etc, it just supports it being disliked by some players, this is the very definition of a subjective issue.

If you don't like using FS then build to only have to use it 5 times a minute as you did, if you don't like not using it then build not to only use it 5 times a minute. But don't try and claim theres some big issue that requires an ability being removed/merged just because you simply don't like the way it works.

See, this is completely incorrect, and I'm not sure why you keep bringing it up after I already addressed it the first time.

As I explained the last time you brought it up, this is not solely an issue with Wrecking Ball. In addition to effecting the entirety of the Execute phase, and the conflict being present with any one of the other 4 procs we have, it also happens when talenting no attacks whatsoever.

This is all clearly shown here. Wherein using not using any talented abilities led to even less Furious Slash use (8 Furious Slash against 69 Raging Blow over the course of 4 minutes).

Your argument basically consists of "I don't like this, everyone should agree and if anyone does like it that's only because they don't understand mechanics so their opinion should be ignored".

As I explained to you earlier, the point made is fully objective. A problem is identified, data is gathered as supporting evidence under a variety of conditions, a solution is proposed. This has nothing to do with like or dislike, and has nothing to do with thinking it's the best/worst solution or biggest/smallest problem.

I'm fully welcome to discussing the pros/cons and debating the merits of the subject, but at least read the information presented if you're going to formulate an argument. This goes back to my point about debating with someone who doesn't want to listen to the other side. Three times now I've shown the facts which counter your claims, yet you keep repeating them. Why?

- - - Updated - - -

Meh, I think it's too late, @Archimtiros.

I agree with your presentation of the problem, and the solution. It's more elegant to remove it.

But we're at tuning now, and I don't see much in the way of mechanical changes at this stage.

I agree, we're passed string-lock, though class design generally has more leeway (see recent changes), so I doubt it will change. However, that has little bearing on identifying a problem.

There's always going to be someone who wants to argue for the sake of argument; this thread is obvious example of that - no matter what information is presented to the contrary, there will be people who simply say "nu uh". My problem was simply bothering to engage with them.

Regardless, we'll see the fact of the matter once the guides come out and players are asking "why don't we use Furious Slash?". The problem will further be exacerbated once a set bonus is made that prioritizes Furious Slash and players start realizing they never use Raging Blow anymore. No matter how you slice it, Fury has a finite amount of GCDs and too many buttons to fit into them. Regardless of what ability is prioritized, something ends up getting left out.

[Tyze]

You still have other abilities to use. Besides it doing shit damage this is why unquenchable thirst was a terrible talent in WoD. The cadence and flow of abilities works, removing the cooldown on Bloodthirst would accomplish very little. It just needs to crit more reliably without being tied to Furious Slash.

Something needs to happen to we can remove this spell. Damnit makes me not want to play Fury, just one of those spells that will get removed sooner or later anyway. Feels like a placeholder

[Snuglz]

If we are too far into the lifecycle of Fury (in beta) where having FS removed and reutilized into RB isn't an option anymore. At this time, what could be done to fix the issue that could be implemented now? I am mainly wondering is, is there a way to fix the issues we are seeing with FS/TFB being completely underutilized in the rotation.

[Archimtiros]

If we are too far into the lifecycle of Fury (in beta) where having FS removed and reutilized into RB isn't an option anymore. At this time, what could be done to fix the issue that could be implemented now? I am mainly wondering is, is there a way to fix the issues we are seeing with FS/TFB being completely underutilized in the rotation.

As far as I'm aware, the only other solutions would be just as invasive as the one proposed.

• Simply buffing Furious Slash doesn't help, it only reverses the situation and we'd find ourselves prioritizing FS over RB/Procs.
• Removing Taste for Blood and putting crit back onto BT would be a partial solution, but wouldn't address the concern of pushing buttons out of the rotation; you'd still find yourself prioritizing one and underutilizing the other and in fact it would hurt Furious Slash even more, as we'd have absolutely no reason to use it.
• Removing the cooldown on Bloodthirst would exacerbate the issue, we'd never use Furious Slash again without talenting Frenzy, which is so uncompetitive that it currently won't happen.

Without sounding pessimistic, most likely nothing will happen. The spec is "good enough", just like Arms is "good enough" with its infrequent CS resets and Execute rage starvation; Warrior also is not the only class with problems, nor do they necessarily have the biggest problems. That's an unfortunate side-effect of working on multiple classes and having a deadline - you can't adjust forever.

[Snuglz]

As far as I'm aware, the only other solutions would be just as invasive as the one proposed.

• Simply buffing Furious Slash doesn't help, it only reverses the situation and we'd find ourselves prioritizing FS over RB/Procs.
• Removing Taste for Blood and putting crit back onto BT would be a partial solution, but wouldn't address the concern of pushing buttons out of the rotation; you'd still find yourself prioritizing one and underutilizing the other and in fact it would hurt Furious Slash even more, as we'd have absolutely no reason to use it.
• Removing the cooldown on Bloodthirst would exacerbate the issue, we'd never use Furious Slash again without talenting Frenzy, which is so uncompetitive that it currently won't happen.

Without sounding pessimistic, most likely nothing will happen. The spec is "good enough", just like Arms is "good enough" with its infrequent CS resets and Execute rage starvation; Warrior also is not the only class with problems, nor do they necessarily have the biggest problems. That's an unfortunate side-effect of working on multiple classes and having a deadline - you can't adjust forever.

They are most likely going to push forward with the current iteration of things with a few adjustments here and there, which is sad. Honestly though, Furious Slash/TFB being the biggest issues with the spec is not the worst thing that could happen. Meaning, I wouldn't call the spec as a whole broken. I understand the concept of trying to make the spec reflect what it means to be "Furious", so I can see what they are trying to do, but there is only so much you can fit into a particular window before it starts to feel cluttered.

They had such a great foundation setup for this spec and I feel they just missed the mark. The worst thing they could do though is buff Furious Slash to the point of competing with RB.

[Roiids]

You still have other abilities to use. Besides it doing shit damage this is why unquenchable thirst was a terrible talent in WoD. The cadence and flow of abilities works, removing the cooldown on Bloodthirst would accomplish very little. It just needs to crit more reliably without being tied to Furious Slash.

Agreed plus they have BT hitting way harder now.

http://beta.askmrrobot.com/wow/simul...8d86f89c949c83

Simulator has it at 23.8% of ST damage on a fight like Zakuun. They should just have a higher innate crit chance on bloodthirst and call it a day.

[Archimtiros]

Agreed plus they have BT hitting way harder now.

http://beta.askmrrobot.com/wow/simul...8d86f89c949c83

Simulator has it at 23.8% of ST damage on a fight like Zakuun. They should just have a higher innate crit chance on bloodthirst and call it a day.

Don't take that simulator as accurate, it actually uses a very unoptimized action list. This is something I'm working on in between other projects.

[caervek]

Though you've never quite said why you dislike my suggestion or how it would change that.

I though I had, but for reference it's because it basically kills off Inner Rage which is one of my favourite things about Legion Fury, I like RB being a 4.5s CD instead of an RNG proc and the extra damage it deals makes it easier to quickly figure out which button to press each GCD (something which as I'm sur eyou know is harder than it sounds when the mechanics are hitting the fan in mythic).

A problem is identified, data is gathered as supporting evidence under a variety of conditions, a solution is proposed. This has nothing to do with like or dislike, and has nothing to do with thinking it's the best/worst solution or biggest/smallest problem.

No, an opinion is formed, data is gathered selectively to support it, something the OP would like more is preferred. This is the very definition of like/dislike hence why so many people have told you this.

I'm fully welcome to discussing the pros/cons and debating the merits of the subject, but at least read the information presented if you're going to formulate an argument. This goes back to my point about debating with someone who doesn't want to listen to the other side.

There's always going to be someone who wants to argue for the sake of argument; this thread is obvious example of that - no matter what information is presented to the contrary, there will be people who simply say "nu uh".

Pretty much describes this thread perfectly lol.

Fury has a finite amount of GCDs and too many buttons to fit into them. Regardless of what ability is prioritized, something ends up getting left out.

And because you dislike it you consider it a problem, whereas the people who do like it (including Blizzard) simply see it as working as intended.

[Artunias]

Caervek,

I don't think we've said the rotation doesn't work. I too like Inner Rage, but there is still the fundamental issue of the Furious Slash crit enabling for Bloodthirst. That's the reason why it being pushed out of the rotation is a problem. Not just because it's a button we don't want to hit, it's because of that core functionality that's tied to it. And it becomes doubly apparent in AoE and Execute rotations.

[Deleted]

They could remove Furious Slash and put the crit buff into WW, based on number of targets hit. Fixes aoe rotation and gives a decent filler on single target aswell.

[Archimtiros]

I though I had, but for reference it's because it basically kills off Inner Rage which is one of my favourite things about Legion Fury, I like RB being a 4.5s CD instead of an RNG proc and the extra damage it deals makes it easier to quickly figure out which button to press each GCD (something which as I'm sur eyou know is harder than it sounds when the mechanics are hitting the fan in mythic).

You said that but didn't elaborate as to why it's "killed off".

To repeat my earlier response;

• It increases the frequency of RB
• There is no RNG involved
• No gaps in the rotation
• Inner Rage remains just as strong a talent
• It makes other talent combinations more competitive

The only thing that's lost is the individual damage of the ability, which is natural considering you'd be using it at least twice as often. Of course I understand

No, an opinion is formed, data is gathered selectively to support it, something the OP would like more is preferred. This is the very definition of like/dislike hence why so many people have told you this.

By so many you mean you and one other repeating it 6 times sure. None of the data shown was "selective", I used three different talent combinations on a variety of fights, gave all the data and then enumerated on the problem.

By your reasoning, literally everything in the world that's ever said would be subjective; obviously that's not correct. I don't know how else to explain this outside of simply remind you that you're misusing the word. The data is quantifiable, it's effects are measurable, period.

• If I were to say "this issue makes Fury Warriors terrible to play" (I didn't), that would be a subjective statement.
• If I were to say "this issue is the worst thing about Fury" (I didn't), that would be subjective.
• If I were to say "fixing this issue would make me love Fury" (I didn't), that would be subjective.
  If I were to say "this is the best version of Fury since Wrath and the OP's change would hurt that" (you did), that would be subjective.

I did not say any of that. I said (in so many words):

• "This issue causes Furious Slash to be underutilized and causes the Taste for Blood buff to fade more often than it is consumed, in turn devaluing Furious Slash further", which is objective.

It's measurable, it's quantifiable, and it's verifiable by the information provided, regardless of the talent combination used the conclusion remains unchanged. Even Bigbaz's log supports that claim, he just doesn't believe it's an important issue.

For something to be subjective, it has to be based on personal feelings, emotions, aesthetics or similar. I made a point of ensuring that "like" was never expressed anywhere in my post for the sole purpose of remaining objective, so I'd appreciate if you'd stop trying to put words in my mouth. If you want to have a conversation as to the merits of this issue, feel free, but simply repeating your false presumption is going nowhere.

And because you dislike it you consider it a problem, whereas the people who do like it (including Blizzard) simply see it as working as intended.

Again, along with the above, it has nothing to do with like, so I don't know why you insist on trying to tell me what I do or do not enjoy. If I simply didn't like Furious Slash, I would have been calling for it's removal long ago, and I wouldn't have needed logs to do so; obviously I did not do these things.

The fact that abilities are pushed out of the rotation is a mechanical flaw, plain and simple. It sidelines mechanical interaction which has implications on the balance of the class both in the short term and the long term, as I've explained in the OP. Furthermore, it is unintuitive and creates a large amount of disparity between talent combinations, which again leads to imbalance.

[caervek]

at least read the information presented if you're going to formulate an argument.

It's getting a bit tiring seeing you just dismiss everyone else opinions as inferior to you own simply because you don;t like them, but as you're claiming this time that I haven't read your opinions (as opposed to telling me/others that we don't understand mechanics, you do, blah blah) I will quote the opinions I disagree with:

Source of the Problem: Furious Slash is pushed out of the rotation

You not liking how something works doesn't necessarily make it a genuine problem.

If Rampage procs, Furious Slash is pushed out; if Wrecking Ball or Sudden Death procs, Furious Slash is pushed out; if Dragon Roar or Odyn's Fury are available, Furious Slash is pushed out.

If players (like myself, Bigbazz, etc) prefer to take Avatar instead of Wrecking Ball then Wrecking Ball will never proc so will not push Furious Strike out, if players are not one of the 0.1% that acquire the Sudden Death legendary then it will never proc and so will not push Furious Strike out. If players (not me this time, I like this one) do not take Dragon Roar then it will never be used and so will not push Furious Strike out.

The only "problem" here is that Blizzard are giving players options on how to build/play their character, and depending on those choices Furious Strike's usage gets diminished.

If Execute is available, Furious Slash is always pushed out.

So the rotation changes below 20% and one of more abilities get dropped? Welcome to every warrior DPS build (excluding Gladiator) ever lol. I think the reason you dislike this so much is because when Furious Slash gets dropped sub 20% the player loses it's boost to Bloodthirst crit chance? But the damage sub 20% is tuned around that happening so it actually has zero effect on DPS.

Second Problem: Taste for Blood is rarely consumed

I agree it can be disheartening to see a proc go to waste, however this isn't a proc designed to do actual damage it's designed to help you avoid missing out on damage, if you can't get off a weaksauce attack that boosts a future Bloodthirst because you're busy getting off losts of high damage attacks that isn't really a bad thing.

IMO the problem here is Taste for Blood not Furious Slash and the best solution would be to either simply remove Taste for Blood and buff damage slightly, or just move Taste for Blood to Bloodthirst instead.

I propose merging Raging Blow and Furious Slash together, using RB's base and FS's effects, along with the following adjustments to relevant talents and traits. /snip

That would require nerfing Raging Blow's damage to maintain DPS balance, which basically means you would be removing Raging Blow and renaming Furious Strike to Raging Blow lol.

How is this better?

• RB without talents takes FS's place as a consistent filler and allows for a more streamlined rotation that still contains 4 primary attacks, putting it on par with Arms and Prot (4 each).
• RB being used consistently means Taste for Blood will always refresh or be consumed by Bloodthirst.
• Frenzy would mean less micromanagement; no more using an ability in place of higher priorities just to maintain the buff.
• Inner Rage would synergize with Rampage/Execute.

"Better" is simply your opinion (again based on what you like/dislike) and is subjective, like myself and others have said many of us consider this worse than the current implementation, but I will be specific:

• Having RB as a consistent filler devalues the importance/feel of RB, and the more GCDs that are spent on your "filler" attack the less are spent on your "meaty" attacks. This is why so many of us like the current design of not using the weakest attack so much, because it feels like your getting off more damage even when your not.
• Taste for Blood always being refreshed or consumed can be achieved by rolling it into Bloodthirst. RB being used constantly would devalue it (and clash with Inner Rage but you're planning to destroy that anyway).
• Frenzy is an optional talent, if players don't want to have to manage it or use an ability in place of higher priorities just to maintain the buff they can just not take it.
• Inner Rage is (IMO) one of the best things in Legion and destroying it just because some builds don't use Furious Slash enough in your opinion is counter to the design of Legion, not only that but at this point your "solution" has long reached/passed the point of doing far more harm to class design/synergy than good.

[Archimtiros]

Source of the Problem: Furious Slash is pushed out of the rotation

You not liking how something works doesn't necessarily make it a genuine problem.

I'm sorry, but you're fucking kidding right? Please just tell me you're trolling, because you're legitimately making me question both my own and your sanity.

How do you get any kind of like or dislike out of that? It's not even a statement, a topic heading! I didn't say I dislike the fact that it happened, I said "this is what is happening". It's purely objective, and the evidence below that topic supports the issue. I can't think of any more ways to explain to you why it's a problem and the only thing you've returned with is "it would make Raging Blow feel worse to me".

If players (like myself, Bigbazz, etc) prefer to take Avatar instead of Wrecking Ball then Wrecking Ball will never proc so will not push Furious Strike out, if players are not one of the 0.1% that acquire the Sudden Death legendary then it will never proc and so will not push Furious Strike out. If players (not me this time, I like this one) do not take Dragon Roar then it will never be used and so will not push Furious Strike out.

For the fourth time in response to this claim I'll link this, and you'll see that despite not talenting any abilities sans Dragon Roar, Furious Slash is still pushed out of the rotation and Taste for Blood is still wasted.

It also doesn't address the issue within the Execute phase which happens regardless of what talents you take. This is a legitimate balancing issue as it causes Enrage to be underutilized and the value of Mastery to plummet. There's nothing subjective about that, it's a mathematical fact.

This is what I mean about not reading the information presented. Everything you've brought up here has been answered time and again, but you're still clanging your drum and making inaccurate presumptions.

[caervek]

By so many you mean you and one other repeating it 6 times sure.

How many people do you have on ignore? I saw 3 or more people agreeing with me this morning.

I don't know how else to explain this

Like Bazz and Deth said, the problem isn't people not understanding what you are saying, the problem is you assuming that because they don't agree that you're right they must not understand what you're saying or the mechanics, etc.

I did not say any of that. I said (in so many words):

"This issue causes Furious Slash to be underutilized and causes the Taste for Blood buff to fade more often than it is consumed, in turn devaluing Furious Slash further", which is objective.

Yes, but it being a problem is subjective/your opinion, that's why people are arguing with you about it. If I were to say my coffee is cold that would be objective, however if I said that it being cold is a problem then that would be subjective/my opinion as many people like cold coffee (for reference I do, but it was in front of me when I was thinking of an analogy).

For something to be subjective, it has to be based on personal feelings, emotions, aesthetics or similar.

And that's why this issue is subjective, because it basically comes down to you and others saying "I don't like how this works" while myself and others say "we do like how this works".

Again, along with the above, it has nothing to do with like, so I don't know why you insist on trying to tell me what I do or do not enjoy. If I simply didn't like Furious Slash, I would have been calling for it's removal long ago, and I wouldn't have needed logs to do so; obviously I did not do these things.

If you liked the way it worked, you wouldn't see the way it worked as a problem, and wouldn't have made logs to back up your opinion because you wouldn't have it. So it has everything to do with like.

The fact that abilities are pushed out of the rotation is a mechanical flaw, plain and simple.

So endgame arms pushing out WW is a flaw? Arms execute pushing out WW all expansion is a flaw? OP procs pushing out Slam in MoP (or vice versa, I can't remember) was a flaw? Execute pushing out HS in MoP was a flaw?

Abilities have always competed for GCD's and the execute phase has always altered the rotation, that's the game. If they made it so you had two buttons that do differing amounts of damage and you just hit the highest damaging one that was available every GCD the game would be very dull.

[Archimtiros]

Like Bazz and Deth said, the problem isn't people not understanding what you are saying, the problem is you assuming that because they don't agree that you're right they must not understand what you're saying or the mechanics, etc.

First off, Deth has one post in this thread and it doesn't have anything to do with anything other than being inflammatory.

Second off, you clearly don't understand what I'm saying, because you're continually repeating the same arguments and ignoring my responses. So either you don't understand, or you simply don't care and want to be argumentative.

I'm not looking for agreement, I'm raising an issue to be discussed. You and Bigbazz are too busy making claims against me to even address the point of the topic. The only time I said anyone didn't understand was when I pointed out Bigbaz's misinterpretation of the interaction between health, damage taken and healing.

If I were to say my coffee is cold that would be objective, however if I said that it being cold is a problem then that would be subjective/my opinion as many people like cold coffee (for reference I do, but it was in front of me when I was thinking of an analogy).

Which is exactly what I did here.

• My coffee is cold - objective statement.
• Furious Slash is pushed out of the rotation - objective statement.

Further;

• cold is a problem - subjective, some people like cold.
• Furious Slash being pushed out is a problem - objective, it leads to mechanics not working properly, being under utilized, and stats being devalued to the point of worthlessness.

You're so wrapped up in trying to call me wrong, you're not even following your own logic.

[caervek]

How do you get any kind of like or dislike out of that? It's not even a statement, a topic heading! I didn't say I dislike the fact that it happened, I said "this is what is happening". It's purely objective, and the evidence below that topic supports the issue.

As I have said before, nobody is disputing that it's happening, the difference in opinion here is wither it as a problem or not, some people (myself, others) like it, some people (you, others) dislike it, but disliking something doesn't make it a problem.

This is what I mean about not reading the information presented.

And this is why Deth/Bazz/etc called you arrogant, because people disagreeing with your opinion does not mean they haven't read the thread, don;t understand the mechanics, don't own a Sega Saturn, etc. It means they have a different opinion on the topic, and when the topic is you not liking how something works there are bound to be lots of people with differing opinions as it's a subjective matter.

[Bigbazz]

I don't want to bang on about this too much, but the simple fact that someone can dispute your idea with an opinion shows that the problems are subjective in nature, your percieved value of the issue is different to others, and infact some see a percieved negative effect attached to your solution to the problem. So however you look at it the problem is subjective to begin with, because gameplay/fun/enjoyment is not an objectively quantifiable measurement that can be measured and applied universally, it comes down to taste. Behaviour you deem as problematic can be percieved as positive depending on the person, it cannot be anything other than subjective as a result.

Objective - Objective facts are indisputable. The time a process takes, the frequency of stock outs, and a part’s diameter can all be measured. Any trained person can take the same measurement and come up with the same result.

Subjective - Information or opinions that are open to interpretation. Generally, subjective information is seen through the eyes of the person collecting or presenting it.

I should mention I'm a big fan of Inner Rage as it is, that is as an ability with a cooldown that hits hard. That said I've believed from the very start that Frenzy would have a very strong place, and while I don't like it I still believe that. I'm not against your idea as I've said numerous times, but for sure my own subjective issues with the spec are more important to me, and there are other solutions to these problems that could also work.

[Archimtiros]

As I have said before, nobody is disputing that it's happening, the difference in opinion here is wither it as a problem or not, some people (myself, others) like it, some people (you, others) dislike it, but disliking something doesn't make it a problem.

And the math supports why it is a problem. You answer me, how does Mastery stay a competitive stat when it's devauled during the Execute phase due to the loss of Enrage uptime?

And this is why Deth/Bazz/etc called you arrogant, because people disagreeing with your opinion does not mean they haven't read the thread, don;t understand the mechanics, don't own a Sega Saturn, etc. It means they have a different opinion on the topic, and when the topic is you not liking how something works there are bound to be lots of people with differing opinions as it's a subjective matter.

Then why did you ask the same question three times when it was explained in the original post? What is that if not fully reading the information presented? The only opinion you've expressed in opposition to the issue I've outlined is the fact that you like how Raging Blow works currently. Surprise, surprise, that is subjective sentiment. It doesn't take into account any hard data, there's no mathematical basis to it, and there's no objectivity to the preference.

I could care less whether we use Raging Blow, Furious Slash, or both. What I care about is the fact that the Fury rotation does not accommodate all of them. My suggestion is one way of solving that problem, and not necessarily even the right or necessarily best solution, you might note that I pointed this out before making it. However, it remains one possibility to do so.

The fact that abilities are pushed out of the rotation is indisputable. It's in plain numbers, and it happens regularly. Whether it happens to Furious Slash, or Furious Slash is buffed to the point where it happens to Raging Blow is fluid, but it happens regardless. Nothing about that is subjective, it's a verifiable fact.

Whether or not you like the fact that it happens can be a matter of subjectivitiy, and I don't care either way, but my post did not broach the subject. It simply made the objective statement that it happens and causes balancing issues.

[caervek]

Second off, you clearly don't understand what I'm saying, because you're continually repeating the same arguments and ignoring my responses. So either you don't understand, or you simply don't care and want to be argumentative.

My arguments are opinions based on what I like/dislike, your responses are opinions based on what you like/dislike. The reason we keep going back and forth on it is because you maintain that anyone who disagrees with your opinion on on how something should work based on what you like/dislike is clearly wrong and they don't understand/haven't read, etc.

I am not saying you are wrong, merely pointing out that the "issue" is simply a subjective opinion, and stating my opposing opinion.

I'm not looking for agreement, I'm raising an issue to be discussed.

Well you clearly are or you wouldn't be going to such lengths to try and convince people that your opinions on how something should work based on what you like/dislike are correct and everyone else's opinions on how something should work based on what they like/dislike are wrong.

You're not interested in a discussion, you just want everyone to agree with you and tell you your opinion is right.

• My coffee is cold - objective statement.
• Furious Slash is pushed out of the rotation - objective statement.

• cold is a problem - subjective, some people like cold.
• Furious Slash being pushed out is a problem - objective, it leads to mechanics not working properly, being under utilized, and stats being devalued to the point of worthlessness.

No, it's subjective, it is balanced around/working as intended, the "issues" it causes don't have any negative effect on DPS and any negative effect on game-play they do/don't have is completely subjective as it's down to the players opinion based on what they like/dislike.

I hated when they made Rend part of Arms play-style in WotLK and again in WoD, it's my all time most hated ability/mechanic however that didn't mean it was a problem, just that I disliked how it worked.

- - - Updated - - -

So however you look at it the problem is subjective to begin with, because gameplay/fun/enjoyment is not an objectively quantifiable measurement that can be measured and applied universally, it comes down to taste. Behaviour you deem as problematic can be percieved as positive depending on the person, it cannot be anything other than subjective as a result.

It pains me somewhat that you can sum up issues so much more eloquently/effectively than I can manage too, and yet he still doesn't get it haha.

[Archimtiros]

No, it's subjective, it is balanced around/working as intended, the "issues" it causes don't have any negative effect on DPS and any negative effect on game-play they do/don't have is completely subjective as it's down to the players opinion based on what they like/dislike.

I hated when they made Rend part of Arms play-style in WotLK and again in WoD, it's my all time most hated ability/mechanic however that didn't mean it was a problem, just that I disliked how it worked.

Except it's not balanced at all. Our stats are so lopsided it's not even funny and our ability damage isn't balanced in the least, which is why they were nerfed and players started clamoring on the forums. Unlike your poor Rend analogy, I never said I didn't like Furious Slash; what I said is that the mechanics aren't working properly and is leading to imbalance. That's not a matter of taste or preference, it's a mathematical fact, plain and simple.

I'm tired of going in circles and this thread has been derailed long enough. Although I know you'll try to take it as "you're right and I don't have a good argument", I'm going to go ahead and be rude so that you can go back to crying about me being arrogant and we can move on:
You don't have the first clue as to what you're talking about.

The end, have a nice day.