Did Poland and Romania destroy the EU?

[Deleted]

OP, here, think on this.

In 1945 our capitol was razed to rubble by Nazis. For fifty years we struggled with communism and while countries like UK, France or Western Germany took ungodly amounts of money from Marshall's plan, we were cockblocked by the USSR. You got 11 fucking billion dollars for post-war amendments, at a time when a dollar was worth way way more than it is now. Western countries had fifty years of prosperity and access to global market.

I live in Warsaw and not so long ago I had a visitor from the UK. The guy was here last time I believe in 1992 or 94 when we had just become an independent country. Upon taking him for a trip around the city centre, the guy was blasted into ground with awe how the city has changed. In twenty years we have nearly caught up with countries that had half a fucking century to grow, because Warsaw is just an example.

But I digress.

Yes, Poles come to work for plethora of jobs in the west. And yes, part of them is lacking in education/language/manners. But those people were either born in the 60s/70s and now have no proper chances of living here on a decent level because their past was fucked or they are from social margin and they go wash dishes because they thought it's fucking better to bail from classes and smoke cigs at the age of 11. Fuck the latter, they are trash and have no place in Poland either.
Furthermore, many people of older date who go to UK and legally work there tend to catch up in education, et cetera and have no problems in assimilating.

I encourage you to visit Poland and while you're here take a good trip around the country, visit bigger cities and some villages and towns on the eastern side which were heavily influenced by totality of 185 years of soviet annexation.
The way of living in Poland is like in the western countries, but the payment is eastern. Somehow, you failed to realise it. Somehow, over 30 million people still live in here and make do, many of them are pretty fucking rich as well.

But, it's easier to put Poles from both ends of the social spectrum into one basket, play the blame game (I bet you're mastering this) and call it a day. Fucking disgusting, I'm curious if you remain such a smartass when in 20 years west will be fucked by immigrants while Polish economy reaches it's potential.

[Deleted]

In my personal experience, after employing Polish Romanians and Latvians, there is a major difference between younger generation and older generation. Younger is not better at all.

[petok]

OP, here, think on this.
heavily influenced by totality of 185 years of soviet annexation.

185 years?!? 1 - 8 - 5 years of SOVIET ANNEXATION?
The lack of education speaks for itself

[Deleted]

123 years of division, 50 years of communism. Oh my, I added 12 years, sorry I only finished 2nd grade.

No no, only 46 years of communism, I gotta clarify before you cherrypick one word and make an entire comment around it.

[Deleted]

Yes, but they also take away housing options, healthcare, childcare and places in schools. They don't speak the official language in public, increase crime rates are loud and don't fully integrate into the culture.
Have you ever heard a lower class polish plumber try and speak english? It literally rakes your ears.

Not to mention the fact that EE are probably the ones that move around Europe the most.
This isn't about prejudice or xenophobia, it is about the possibility that the EU would be better off without those countries in it.
Just think about it for a second: lower immigration numbers along with better quality immigrants who come from the western world, more job opportunities, less crime, less cultural tensions. The EU would become what it should have been in the first place, it would function optimally.
There would be more willingness to cooperate across the EU knowing that millions of people won't move from half a continent away in a couple of years if you're a bit more opened to federalisation.

Yeah, sure, keep telling yourself that. Romania and Poland are all the problems of the EU and without them the EU would be amazing. Top stupid statement of the day.
If you ask why, how about the economy of certain countries, the EU leadership not being clear and open enough, nationalist people not wanting to give up sovreignty, do you seriously think problems like this would vanish if Romania and Poland weren't in the EU?

You can't force companies to do that. All businesses have the same primary goal: make more and more profits.
Having no other option but to hire natives is the only way they will ever listen.

Sure you can force them. You make laws. I know it's surprising but... we have those kind of laws even in... ROMANIA. Minimum salary laws, and the minimum salary gets increased every year and companies either adapt or gtfo. And it works.

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Shitty Food? I was in RO in January. They have better food than America (Unless you eat 100% organic, then it's mostly the same) and Bucharest is a beautiful city. Also if i remember correctly, they are swapping to the Euro pretty soon.

Thank you for the compliment. Bucharest still has its issues, but it's improving every year. Also, regarding the euro, we postponed it a bit, so still at least 5 years to go.

[petok]

123 years of division, 50 years of communism. Oh my, I added 12 years, sorry I only finished 2nd grade.

No no, only 46 years of communism, I gotta clarify before you cherrypick one word and make an entire comment around it.

You could simply use word Russian instead of Soviet.

[Deleted]

imho the eu was too fast into taking those countries on board and not because a stupid cultural reason but because of their economic parameters were too low, desperate workers ready to accept any shitty job for a really low salary have pushed down the job market (in italy for example construction workers are almost all from romania cuz they work way more for less usually off the book and without any protection); it also opened the door for factories to be moved in those country were the work laws, taxation, and level of salaries are way less restrictive.
It basically was a win win situation for the riches and politicians and a lose lose for everyone else.

I partially agree. First, I am from Romania. Let's get this out of the way.

Now, I don't think it was the economy that was the problem, but the corruption. Romania has extremely corrupt politicians and leadership. This created huge problems. The EU tried to prop us up, they gave us several hundreads of millions of euros to make projects and improve our lives... we took some 5%. Because corruption stopped the rest.

This was actually the last most important issue still needed to be resolved before we were admitted, the EU thought we'd fix it but they should have kept us out till we did, at least partially. Once we found ourselves in the EU, the people in leadership here continued their corruption since there was no reason anymore to try and stop it, our goal had been accomplished.

If the corruption had been lower, we'd have actually took more of those money (Poland did ok on that aspect and the improvements in their nation are quite visible) and started improving. We still would not be on the footing of ... England, but we could at least say we're about the same as Hungary, maybe Austria. But corruption remained, so we're not even close.

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In Sweden we didn't have beggars before Romania / Bulgaria got in to the EU. Now we have them outside every grocery store and shopping mall in the country.
Not sure you can classify that as work, they don't pay taxes for it.

Well, while I'm sorry that our ambassadors of our culture are beggars I need to ask, why aren't you kicking them out? Or imprisoning them, don't know what your law says. In the end, Romania isn't a police state to control every single person leaving and we can't send our police to Sweden to get them.

Also, for all those beggars that are clearly Romanian there's some highly educated people living there that know your language or English at least that never state they're Romanian. You'd be surprised.

[Deleted]

I partially agree. First, I am from Romania. Let's get this out of the way.

Now, I don't think it was the economy that was the problem, but the corruption. Romania has extremely corrupt politicians and leadership. This created huge problems. The EU tried to prop us up, they gave us several hundreads of millions of euros to make projects and improve our lives... we took some 5%. Because corruption stopped the rest.

This was actually the last most important issue still needed to be resolved before we were admitted, the EU thought we'd fix it but they should have kept us out till we did, at least partially. Once we found ourselves in the EU, the people in leadership here continued their corruption since there was no reason anymore to try and stop it, our goal had been accomplished.

If the corruption had been lower, we'd have actually took more of those money (Poland did ok on that aspect and the improvements in their nation are quite visible) and started improving. We still would not be on the footing of ... England, but we could at least say we're about the same as Hungary, maybe Austria. But corruption remained, so we're not even close.

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Well, while I'm sorry that our ambassadors of our culture are beggars I need to ask, why aren't you kicking them out? Or imprisoning them, don't know what your law says. In the end, Romania isn't a police state to control every single person leaving and we can't send our police to Sweden to get them.

Also, for all those beggars that are clearly Romanian there's some highly educated people living there that know your language or English at least that never state they're Romanian. You'd be surprised.

Unfortunately, you are absolutely right when talking about corruption. It really did block any chance at proper development. Which is a pity as Romania had a good chance at making a big jump.

[Deleted]

Polish criminal gangs have all but disappeared and the polish are for the most part hard working. However the country itself is useless in regards to EU since all they do is suck out $$$$$..

Romania should be thrown out or at least penalized heavily until they start honoring the international treaties they have signed. Sent all their Roma into western europe. Screw em.

[Bumkin]

no EE country will ever be kicked out of EU, also the reason why they are poor is hundreds of years of being attacked by mongolians, ottomans and russians, no country can develop under such circumstances and lets not forget the soviet communism that destroyed their culture and economy, also undead puppy you are ignorant and xenophobic

[edw]

It's no secret that immigration has become a big issue these days and uncontrolled movement of people from different cultures is probably the biggest barrier against European unity.
I'm sure countries like Sweden or the UK would be ok with free movement if it were only from Northern/Western EU countries because they come from similar social/economic backgrounds.

SO I have to ask, would the EU be more unified if large, poorer countries like Poland and Romania were to be kicked out?

As of ... late the uber British people have a real chance to destroy the EU, I don't see what the polish or roumanian people have to do with it, it's pretty easy to throw blame on someone else when the problem of EU is much much more complex.

[ati87]

Western-Europe is build upon ''cheap'' labour, first it was the slave trade....then it was the immigration of people from Turkey and Morocco and now it's East-Europe.

[Deleted]

Western-Europe is build upon ''cheap'' labour, first it was the slave trade....then it was the immigration of people from Turkey and Morocco and now it's East-Europe.

Sure. We never done anything ourselves.

[Acidbaron]

Western-Europe is build upon ''cheap'' labour, first it was the slave trade....then it was the immigration of people from Turkey and Morocco and now it's East-Europe.

Wrong continent i'm afraid. Europe is the best place regarding worker rights, wages and so on. Slavery in Europe, you really don't know your history do you? Since unless we are talking middle ages slavery inside a lot of nations inside europe was illegal.

People that came to work here as guest workers also mostly stayed and they didn't earn less than locals in the same position if we include all the housing and such provided.

[Hengwulf]

Would it?
I only ever meet people from Denmark and Germany who were called "Jan".

Well, Jan is a direct translation of John, but it isn't that popular name nowadays,. Ivan is even less popular and instantly associated with Russia, even if there are at least some polish people named Ivan.

Polish placeholder name, equivalent of John Smith would be Jan Kowalski, which also happens to be almost literal translation, with the exception that Kowalski is an adjective from the word smith, which is a very common construction of polish surnames. John Smith 100% literally would be Jan Kowal, which also is pretty common-sounding. Other very widely popular surname is Nowak, an equivalent of Newman. There is even more Nowaks than Kowalskis.

The most popular first name would be Piotr for males, and Anna for females. So if you need a placeholder Pole, you can go with Jan Nowak or Piotr Kowalski for males, and Anna Nowak or Katarzyna Kowalska for females.

[Deleted]

There was a polish boxer in here that was announced as "polish Pavel".

[Deleted]

as a dutch citizen I have no problem with polish people, when I think poland I think hard workers for too little wage (which theyre okay with cause they can buy castles in poland with that money)

When I think romania however I think organised crime, it might not be fair to the average romanian but the pick pocket gangs were all romanian led. The problem the eu is having is imo because it's very bureaucratic ineffective untransparent and undemocratic.

Combine that with an unprecedented expansion politic (hell theyre working on turkey joining) .. all of the eastern countries etc.. just.. no, it's grown too quickly and too stupidly to have a positive image still, and despite spending 500 million euros a year on propoganda to children, people are waking up.

No accountability equals no responsibility, and the eu-parliament has neither.

[Hengwulf]

Wrong continent i'm afraid. Europe is the best place regarding worker rights, wages and so on. Slavery in Europe, you really don't know your history do you? Since unless we are talking middle ages slavery inside a lot of nations inside europe was illegal.

People that came to work here as guest workers also mostly stayed and they didn't earn less than locals in the same position if we include all the housing and such provided.

Well, while slavery in Europe was gone quite early, many european countries kept it in their colonies - and lot of western Europe's wealth was built on colonialism.

[Deleted]

Western-Europe is build upon ''cheap'' labour, first it was the slave trade....then it was the immigration of people from Turkey and Morocco and now it's East-Europe.

Oddly enough, we have none of those (and never had slaves either) and we're always ranking in the top countries to live in.

Shit, we must've missed all those pointers about slave trade and exploiting other countries instead of, you know, educating our people and building a better and more prosperous society based on equality, innovation and hard work.

[Acidbaron]

Well, while slavery in Europe was gone quite early, many european countries kept it in their colonies - and lot of western Europe's wealth was built on colonialism.

I would argue that a nations wealth was build on it, i won't argue that western europeans especially royal families and other more industrial families benefited from it.