[Beta] Havoc Discussion

[Sarkol]

People won't like this, but i've honestly not played a more bland, uninteresting spec in all my years of playing. This is where people tell me Havoc is actually interesting, and actually has more than a few buttons. I've seen people shouted down for this, and while not strictly true, Havoc is more simple, has less synergy between skills and talents, and has less flow than almost any spec i've played.

I wanted to main Havoc, but i can almost certainly say i won't touch it with a 12 foot pole. I just don't get how such a new class can be formed so poorly. And bear in mind, Blizzard have the talented designers. They're smarter than me. But look at the Monk and DK. Problems, but way better than the state DH is in right now. The single target build is just disgusting in how bland it is. Blow CDs, and then build spend FOREVER. Now you get to throw some glaives in. It's just dreadful. No procs, no real interaction or interest at all.

The momentum build is something i probably wouldn't play personally, and it probably isn't even viable on some bosses. That's barely better. All that fucking work to make a talent set up worth it. I mean, i don't really know what to say. Seems like if you aren't in Meta form, it's pretty bad.

The only thing i can say is maybe the lack of haste on the copied chars i was testing is so low it feels shit. Saying that, all specs i tested are in the same boat.

It just feels entirely mashed together. Forced together to make some acceptable(But dreadfully bland) builds that do ok dps. I mean, are you guys actually finding this fun. Subjective shit i know, but i genuinely have no clue how Havoc is any sort of an engaging spec.

It's possible a big lack of haste was to blame, but all specs i tested were in the same boat. The sad thing is, most other stuff is pretty fun, the jumping around, the Fel Rushing, and then you get in to the rotation, which you'll be doing most of the time, and then it hits you.

I hope Vengeance is somewhat better.

[Deleted]

That was said back when we had like 4 abilities back pre alpha. Things change over the course of the beta. That is just how it is.

Right now I have been testing 2 builds, wacking at the sodding demons in my Order hall for 6 minutes each. I do not use Meta.

Talent setup is as follows:

Build 1: CC, DA, BL, SR, Nem, UP, FB: 190-200k dps at 841 ilvl. (suboptimal use of Throw glaive, so could prob get another 10-15k dps if played optimally)
Build 2: FM, Prep, Fbl, SR, Momentum, UP, Demonic: 180-190k dps at 841 ilvl (Momentum uptime 55-60%)

I tried doing momentum with Fel Barrage and my fingers just said no. After 15 minutes I just couldnt be asked. Its just not a build I feel like doing for some reason lol.

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I dont touch Demon Baldes for 2 reasons:

1: Its fucking boring and I hate loosing control over how my rotation goes
2: Its confirmed iovertuned by a blue, so it will net unintended dps results.

Thanks for the info on that, i don't suppose you could test a build that uses fel eruption? maybe build 2 you have there just swap out momentum?

and when are you gonna stream again!

[Shirofune]

People won't like this, but i've honestly not played a more bland, uninteresting spec in all my years of playing. This is where people tell me Havoc is actually interesting, and actually has more than a few buttons. I've seen people shouted down for this, and while not strictly true, Havoc is more simple, has less synergy between skills and talents, and has less flow than almost any spec i've played.

I wanted to main Havoc, but i can almost certainly say i won't touch it with a 12 foot pole. I just don't get how such a new class can be formed so poorly. And bear in mind, Blizzard have the talented designers. They're smarter than me. But look at the Monk and DK. Problems, but way better than the state DH is in right now. The single target build is just disgusting in how bland it is. Blow CDs, and then build spend FOREVER. Now you get to throw some glaives in. It's just dreadful. No procs, no real interaction or interest at all.

The momentum build is something i probably wouldn't play personally, and it probably isn't even viable on some bosses. That's barely better. All that fucking work to make a talent set up worth it. I mean, i don't really know what to say. Seems like if you aren't in Meta form, it's pretty bad.

The only thing i can say is maybe the lack of haste on the copied chars i was testing is so low it feels shit. Saying that, all specs i tested are in the same boat.

It just feels entirely mashed together. Forced together to make some acceptable(But dreadfully bland) builds that do ok dps. I mean, are you guys actually finding this fun. Subjective shit i know, but i genuinely have no clue how Havoc is any sort of an engaging spec.

It's possible a big lack of haste was to blame, but all specs i tested were in the same boat. The sad thing is, most other stuff is pretty fun, the jumping around, the Fel Rushing, and then you get in to the rotation, which you'll be doing most of the time, and then it hits you.

I hope Vengeance is somewhat better.

One thing I learnt after playing WoW since WotLK. I don't like procs. When a rotation has too many procs around it, you lose skill and instead that is replaced by luck.

A rotation should never be dependant on luck, like what happens currently with live Ret Paladin. Such design is cancer for me, so, the less RNG there is in a rotation, the better for me. Thats why I like Momentum, a lot, because it's hard to make it work, but its all up to your skill. It adds a LOT of depth to the spec since its not easy to be moving and DPSing the whole time, adds a lot of depth in terms of burst windows and is not longer the "generate fury - spend fury" that the base spec is.

Just having VR and Felblade added a lot of fun for me while lvling a DH. That mobility and jumping around feels good, and I for sure hope Momentum stays ahead, since it's the skill based spec.

Saying that, of course, DH is simple, on its base spec and with the Chaos Blade/Demon Reborn build (rip) but thats up to you playing like that. If you want depth, you've to take Momentum.

Also, getting crits and being refunded its cost is fun. It feels really good to crit twice in a row, see how you destroy mobs and you're fueled to keep going. Such design is GOOD, and I really enjoy it. It felt the same when you were critting a lot with a MM Hunter. You felt good, you were being refunded resources, and you knew our gear investment was working and you felt it. The less RNG crap, the better, honestly. I'm glad the 30% chance to be refunded in Annihilation was removed and instead changed with on-crit.

Anyway, in case you're wondering, the spec is engaging for me because:

1- Class fantasy. It feels so good to rush and glide around.
2- Fast melee paced - movement combat. I always loved that since I played Warrior in Tera, and I think DH is the class that is closest to that design.
3- Engaging rotation that fuels you to keep going with crits.

[Sangomah]

Thanks for the info on that, i don't suppose you could test a build that uses fel eruption? maybe build 2 you have there just swap out momentum?

and when are you gonna stream again!

Fel Eruption is bugged again. (not doing double dmg to stun immune) so no point.

Streaming tonight. Had thunderstorms 2 days in a row now #feelsbadman

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@Sarkol

The first build I posted on the last page is pretty boring playstyle wise, but its hardly a 2 button spec. The boring part is that you stand behind a boss and do your rotation like any other class in the entire game.

Momentum is using all kinds of stuff all the time. I dont think ANYONE will be able to hit 67% effective uptime on Momentum. Its fast paced. Darting back and forth.

For those saying that its not viable on all fights, are incorrect. It just requires more planning. If you want a challenge, this is the perfect talent setup. No other spec in the game forces you to plan that much, and it is therefore one of the more fun specs in the game as of now.

[the boar]

Build 1: CC, DA, BL, SR, Nem, UP, FB: 190-200k dps at 841 ilvl. (suboptimal use of Throw glaive, so could prob get another 10-15k dps if played optimally)

i am personally getting 15-20k more dps with First Blood over Bloodlet (not abusing the 3s Demonic buff extension bug, for the record) on the Imprisoned Forgefiend

but i only have 1 point in sharpened glaives right now. could that be why?

funnily enough trade chat now is debating felblade vs bloodlet and nobody is mentioning first blood.. am i pushing my buttons very wrong? 160~k ilvl 831

[Sangomah]

i am personally getting 15-20k more dps with First Blood over Bloodlet (not abusing the 3s Demonic buff extension bug, for the record) on the Imprisoned Forgefiend

but i only have 1 point in sharpened glaives right now. could that be why?

funnily enough trade chat now is debating felblade vs bloodlet and nobody is mentioning first blood.. am i pushing my buttons very wrong? 160~k ilvl 831

You might be getting the balanced blades buff from the spider next to it? It gives you a flat 8% dmg increase. Make sure you are not within 8 yards and is not hitting it!

You might be right though.

I Alpha I loved the First blood, fel erupt build with demonic, but it has changed a lot since then. If First blood would be viable in a rotation I would be a very happy demon killer :P

[Deleted]

why dont they just add the effect of first blood to eyebeam? or remove the added dmg with demon blades and add 100% hit autoattacks. eyebeam is just a joke with less dmg than fist of fury but double cd

[Emek]

People won't like this, but i've honestly not played a more bland, uninteresting spec in all my years of playing. This is where people tell me Havoc is actually interesting, and actually has more than a few buttons. I've seen people shouted down for this, and while not strictly true, Havoc is more simple, has less synergy between skills and talents, and has less flow than almost any spec i've played.

I wanted to main Havoc, but i can almost certainly say i won't touch it with a 12 foot pole. I just don't get how such a new class can be formed so poorly. And bear in mind, Blizzard have the talented designers. They're smarter than me. But look at the Monk and DK. Problems, but way better than the state DH is in right now. The single target build is just disgusting in how bland it is. Blow CDs, and then build spend FOREVER. Now you get to throw some glaives in. It's just dreadful. No procs, no real interaction or interest at all.

The momentum build is something i probably wouldn't play personally, and it probably isn't even viable on some bosses. That's barely better. All that fucking work to make a talent set up worth it. I mean, i don't really know what to say. Seems like if you aren't in Meta form, it's pretty bad.

The only thing i can say is maybe the lack of haste on the copied chars i was testing is so low it feels shit. Saying that, all specs i tested are in the same boat.

It just feels entirely mashed together. Forced together to make some acceptable(But dreadfully bland) builds that do ok dps. I mean, are you guys actually finding this fun. Subjective shit i know, but i genuinely have no clue how Havoc is any sort of an engaging spec.

It's possible a big lack of haste was to blame, but all specs i tested were in the same boat. The sad thing is, most other stuff is pretty fun, the jumping around, the Fel Rushing, and then you get in to the rotation, which you'll be doing most of the time, and then it hits you.

I hope Vengeance is somewhat better.

Nah I agree. I thought the meta talent was cool because it gave us our gimmik and it was interesting and fun during the opener. But now our gimmik is going to be momentum, which personally isn't fun. Leveling some other things between now and launch. I'll give blizzard time to sort things out before pissing on the soap.

edit: momentum has been a thing since before meta nerf, but still

[Sangomah]

@Dankdruid Tried Fel Eruption during some World Quests and it still hits like a truck when it crits (670-690 crits in 841 ilvl) so with the 100% it might be worth having in a single target rotation if you like the ability. Will most likely not beat Nemesis on pure single target though

[Paxz19]

@everyone Do you find Havoc fun and do you think you will find it fun for a whole expac?

[Deleted]

@everyone Do you find Havoc fun and do you think you will find it fun for a whole expac?

As of right now, then no. If they fix synergy between shit and figures out wtf they want to do with Eye Beam + figuring out what fucking use Demon Reborn has now after nerf (i can tell you NOTHING)

Sadly...


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[Sangomah]

@everyone Do you find Havoc fun and do you think you will find it fun for a whole expac?

Consdiering we can only tell from our experience on Beta, we won't know for sure how it will be for the next 2 years.

That said, I wanted to switch to Demon Hunter to get movement based dps, Momentum brings this. The issue with the roller coaster we are still on (this close to release ) is that it might not even be competative for the level of raiding that I will hopefully be doing come Legion.

If the movement based spec does not work, and I will be a static rotational machine that ideally don't want to move from my target due to DPS loss, I will most likely not main DH, which is super sad

TLR Movement dps is fun, Static mash buttons in a rotation is not fun.

[Deleted]

Consdiering we can only tell from our experience on Beta, we won't know for sure how it will be for the next 2 years.

That said, I wanted to switch to Demon Hunter to get movement based dps, Momentum brings this. The issue with the roller coaster we are still on (this close to release ) is that it might not even be competative for the level of raiding that I will hopefully be doing come Legion.

If the movement based spec does not work, and I will be a static rotational machine that ideally don't want to move from my target due to DPS loss, I will most likely not main DH, which is super sad

TLR Movement dps is fun, Static mash buttons in a rotation is not fun.

Exactly.. And tbh, call me a FOTM idiot, but as a competitive and a skilled raider - i don't want to bring a low/mediocre class to a raid.. Simple as that. Im result oriented, and i want to be #1 nothing wrong with that in my eyes, others might disagree.


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[Emek]

Exactly.. And tbh, call me a FOTM idiot, but as a competitive and a skilled raider - i don't want to bring a low/mediocre class to a raid.. Simple as that. Im result oriented, and i want to be #1 nothing wrong with that in my eyes, others might disagree.


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With blizzard pruning utility, there's 0 reason to bring a dps class outside of the player, which means, who ever doesn't die and does the most dps gets the spot. and if your guild has good dps, and your class is shit, gg

[Sangomah]

With blizzard pruning utility, there's 0 reason to bring a dps class outside of the player, which means, who ever doesn't die and does the most dps gets the spot. and if your guild has good dps, and your class is shit, gg

With that in mind, you can't bring anyone but ranged and tops 3 melee for interrupt rotation or for specific AoE bosses.

We still have abilities that are needed. battle res, heroism/time warp. WInburst is gonna be "abused" by good guilds to get the movement speed to move faster, much like Aspect of the Fox on BH Mythic. Mythic REQUIRES specific setups. Normal and hc is bring the player not the class.

Demon Hunter will have a place, cause we seem to have 1 viable spec no matter what. At the end of the day it depends on you, as the player, to be willing to play that spec.

[Emek]

With that in mind, you can't bring anyone but ranged and tops 3 melee for interrupt rotation or for specific AoE bosses.

We still have abilities that are needed. battle res, heroism/time warp. WInburst is gonna be "abused" by good guilds to get the movement speed to move faster, much like Aspect of the Fox on BH Mythic. Mythic REQUIRES specific setups. Normal and hc is bring the player not the class.

Demon Hunter will have a place, cause we seem to have 1 viable spec no matter what. At the end of the day it depends on you, as the player, to be willing to play that spec.

Thought that was too obvious to be worth mentioning, but obviously not?

[Deleted]

With blizzard pruning utility, there's 0 reason to bring a dps class outside of the player, which means, who ever doesn't die and does the most dps gets the spot. and if your guild has good dps, and your class is shit, gg

Im that kind of guy if; a DH does generally lets say 300k dps and a Rogue 365k, i'd be playing the Rogue..

Only reason for praying DH to be good is that the whole theme of a DH etc abilities is more tempting than a Rogue. However, a raid boss doesn't care about that. Meaning i'd be playing rogue for that matter. (I'd be okay withing 15k reach) but not worse.


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[Makro]

For those saying that its not viable on all fights, are incorrect. It just requires more planning.

I look back to old bosses and find plenty where jumping and dashing around would have messed with the strategy.
I just hope the spec will not be tuned around momentum being the best build so it doesn't feel gimped in fights and situations where positioning is relevant.

[Deleted]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/hmHT4gqX769GDMkb/

Dungeon logs with chemo build.

Few things to note:

- still getting used to the build and extremely tired, so the rotation is FAR FAR from optimal. bear with me as I work it out
- meta used on second & last boss
- using an AoE build to play with Fbarrage rather than the Cblades ST build, with all bosses being ST
- dungeon bosses are very short. not indicative of raid bosses really.

- wtf fire mages. wtf enha. NERF BLIZZ THEY CAN'T BE BETTER THAN ME EVEN IF MORE SKILLED.

Didn't they just buff Enh shammy, even tho they're really strong but yeah looks quite good anyway, there's still tuning to be down, so we shouldn't let us down just yet

[Deleted]

Archimonde Mythic for example is in my opinion bad with momentum