[MISTWEAVER] 7.X Discussion Thread

[Grofu]

Quick question if someone knows: What saves (or can save) more mana in general? Mana tea every about 90 seconds or using the extra charge from the TFT talent to cast a free Vivify about every 30 seconds?

Edit: The more I think about it, the more of a problem I have with Mana Tea. It is not like that in exactly every 90 second we will always get a 10 second window to keep spamming our most expensive spells (I guess if someone is a really good player they can). But for me at least and I assume a lot of other people, I cannot imagine mana tea having an "effective" duration of more than 8 seconds on average. I expect to lose time because I am in the middle of casting, or have to move, or delays etc. So even if the mana tea buff technically has a 10 second duration, is it really feasible to expect to be able to use more than 9 or 8 seconds (or less!)?

So, in that scenario, the math (if I did it right) works out slightly in Mana Tea's favor, like this (assuming no Demonic Phylactery):

Using TFT only on two free Vivifies, it's 7200 mana x 2 = 14,400 savings every 30 seconds, or 43,200/1.5min.

With Mana Tea, you can cast Vivify maybe 8 times during the ten seconds of MT (my current haste produces a 1.28sec casting time, or 7.8 casts, but let's assume some folks have better haste than me). 7200x8=57,600/2=28,800. But you also get 3 free taps of Vivify from unfocused TFT, so that's another savings of 7200x3=21,600. That's a total savings of 50,400.

That's not too far off, given that Mana Tea requires a manual click, so IMO Focused Thunder wins here, especially if you take into consideration (as you point out) that most people hold 1.5-minute CDs rather than casting them on cooldown. If you hold Mana Tea for emergencies then it's (presumably) always a net loss against FT.

(Edit: Of course if you use your TFTs for other things instead of Vivify, then all bets are off, and there's certainly an argument to be made about flexibility with mana tea.)

(Someone check my math, please. I'm usually an idiot in one way or another.)

- - - Updated - - -

On a separate note, have you all noticed that you can cast Essence Font while floating with Zen Flight? Some kind of bug, I guess. Can't imagine that would have much applicability in raids, but it might be useful for open world PVP.

[lycrates]

So what is considered "correctly"?
When whole raid takes a ton of damage? For moderate AoE damage you just Vivify spam with Effuse spam on the ones dropping a bit lower?

When i tried to Vivify spam i went oom. I personally use Essence Font to the maximum my mana will allow during a fight because it is our most mana efficient healing spell when it does not overheal (if I am not mistaken). I think everyone agrees to use ReM on Cooldown. Everything else I do is using the most efficient spell for the best situation in order to save mana for more Essence Fonts when 6+ people are injured enough for me to use it. If possible I try to use vivify and/or enveloping after an essence font on people with the Buff in order to trigger GoW twice.

[Jamie081]

Is there any advice for TW dungeons? I've only just come back to wow so I don't have the extend life tier bonus and MW feels so awful to heal on. But should that matter since we won't have it in Legion? Or is it necessary now because damage is so bursty and it isn't in the next expansion? (it's really hard to tell because I don't have beta either). I've noticed those who seem to enjoy the spec also happen to have the tier bonus.

Group healing is completely fine but tank healing seems to be really weak (or is it tanks just being weaker?). I'm applying EM on the tank, using ReM on CD and the tank's health will still drop too fast. Effuse heals for nothing outside of TFT so I have to spam vivify to get out some decent healing, and even that isn't enough sometimes. Life Cocoon's CD being 3 mins makes "oh shit" moments really stressful too and because damage is so bursty it means these moments are really frequent. Using RT seems to be the only decent option since it helps get more powerful heals out more often but the talent just screams "I was an afterthought which is why I'm so clunky".

I really hope it's just a gear/ilvl issue because it's really difficult to enjoy MW atm and I want to keep it as my main in Legion. Quite a few holy priests seem to be coming to the spec and loving it but I don't see what they're enjoying? Is it because we're just another hard-casting healer now? I need reassurance.

[Puupi]

I love MW currently. Only negative side is that most of the talents are very meh, but the healing toolkit and basic gameplay is absolutely great.

[Myta]

Is there any advice for TW dungeons? I've only just come back to wow so I don't have the extend life tier bonus and MW feels so awful to heal on. But should that matter since we won't have it in Legion? Or is it necessary now because damage is so bursty and it isn't in the next expansion? (it's really hard to tell because I don't have beta either). I've noticed those who seem to enjoy the spec also happen to have the tier bonus.

If you're casting EnV and ReM on the tank and spamming Effuse than the tank should not die if he's not over pulling or not using his CDs properly. Now TW isn't super hard content, but it's much harder than it was before the patch, especially the ICC 5man ones. You can do things to minimize damage like Leg Sweep a group and set up hots on the tank, use Chi-Ji so you can tunnel the tank with heals etc. But healers can no longer carry bad tanks and vice versa as well as they could prepatch.

[lycrates]

So, in that scenario, the math (if I did it right) works out slightly in Mana Tea's favor, like this (assuming no Demonic Phylactery):

Using TFT only on two free Vivifies, it's 7200 mana x 2 = 14,400 savings every 30 seconds, or 43,200/1.5min.

With Mana Tea, you can cast Vivify maybe 8 times during the ten seconds of MT (my current haste produces a 1.28sec casting time, or 7.8 casts, but let's assume some folks have better haste than me). 7200x8=57,600/2=28,800. But you also get 3 free taps of Vivify from unfocused TFT, so that's another savings of 7200x3=21,600. That's a total savings of 50,400.

That's not too far off, given that Mana Tea requires a manual click, so IMO Focused Thunder wins here, especially if you take into consideration (as you point out) that most people hold 1.5-minute CDs rather than casting them on cooldown. If you hold Mana Tea for emergencies then it's (presumably) always a net loss against FT.

(Edit: Of course if you use your TFTs for other things instead of Vivify, then all bets are off, and there's certainly an argument to be made about flexibility with mana tea.)

(Someone check my math, please. I'm usually an idiot in one way or another.)

- - - Updated - - -

On a separate note, have you all noticed that you can cast Essence Font while floating with Zen Flight? Some kind of bug, I guess. Can't imagine that would have much applicability in raids, but it might be useful for open world PVP.

Great! Thank you for doing the math Grofu! I suspected that TFT might be the better mana talent if the extra cast is used on a Vivify (and it is not like we will not be casting Vivifys anyways, not to mention that it triggers Lifecycles if it is not already on). I still do not believe that anyone except top players can utilize the full 10 seconds of the mana tea buff. I think most players will get 8 or at most 9 seconds off mana tea.

Of course if someone is not using Vivify's unless they are UT, then TFT might not work for them as a mana talent, but i think for everyone else, it might be a better mana talent than mana tee.

[Deleted]

Great! Thank you for doing the math Grofu! I suspected that TFT might be the better mana talent if the extra cast is used on a Vivify (and it is not like we will not be casting Vivifys anyways, not to mention that it triggers Lifecycles if it is not already on). I still do not believe that anyone except top players can utilize the full 10 seconds of the mana tea buff. I think most players will get 8 or at most 9 seconds off mana tea.

Of course if someone is not using Vivify's unless they are UT, then TFT might not work for them as a mana talent, but i think for everyone else, it might be a better mana talent than mana tee.

You will lose tons of HPS if you use TFT with Vivify and don't play with RT. Especially with the artifact, where ReM has the chance to split when cast initially or when it jumps. You really don't want to use TFT with Vivify, trust me.

[Grofu]

You will lose tons of HPS if you use TFT with Vivify and don't play with RT. Especially with the artifact, where ReM has the chance to split when cast initially or when it jumps. You really don't want to use TFT with Vivify, trust me.

I didn't mention that since he didn't ask about RT (I assume you mean Rising Thunder, right?), and we're definitely just talking about pre-patch here, but it does seem like an important consideration. We can do some math here. Rising Sun Kick's cooldown is 10.2 seconds with my current haste. I'll just assume most people have that narrowed down to 10.0 since it's easier math.

Assuming perfect resets of TFT, and applying all TFTs to Vivify, this would be three free Vivifies every 30 seconds (instead of 2 with Focused Thunder), and thus 9 free Vivifies every 1.5 minutes (versus 6 from Focused Thunder). That's a total mana savings of 64,800 mana over 90 seconds, versus 43.2k from FT and 50.4k from Mana Tea (calculation shown in post #242).

So yeah, that's huge -- a 50% improvement over Focused Thunder (precisely 50%, in fact -- I can almost see the dev sitting at his or her calculator, pecking away at these same numbers).

The question, of course, is how well you can follow both melee mechanics and raid damage at the same time. I've been wondering how people go about this. Perhaps when raid damage is high they use only Rising Sun Kick and the other two attacks just languish while they heal the raid, until they have some free time again. This is something I haven't explored yet, but I plan to.

Incidentally, that's how the new Holy Paladins work. They stand in melee range throwing down Judgment, Holy Prism, Light of Dawn and Holy Shock for localized heals in melee range and throwing in the odd Crusader Strike, while at the same time keeping an eye on raid damage and reaching for the mouse as needed.

Still, most of the Warcraftlogs parses so far are with Focused Thunder and Mana Tea, from what I've seen. I do see top Misties using RT, though.

[Deleted]

Have been liking Focused Thunder alot actually. For 5 mans you will use tea for more then just rem, essence font and Enveloping mist options are both really useful. Even effuse can be quite useful with the tea. Geting a 600% spellpower heal can be very useful, especially if you have focused thunder nad can chain 2 of them back to back.

Casting REM instead of other spells is way to save mana. The only real sacrice you do if you cast vivify instead of rem is uplift uptime what you gain is mana and healing. 1 Vivify heals for more then 1 REM, 825% spellpower vs 750% spellpower. Artifact traits are both 15% healing increase so thoes dont really matter. At 110 vivify costs 49.500 mana and rem costs 30.800 mana.


And yes monk talent tiers are extremely borring. Would say 60, 75 and 90 are the worse offenders. All 3 tiers pretty much have 1 talent that will be used way more and in majority of the content. Healing elixir is really strong now with the nerfs to both harm and dampen. Legsweep is just more useful and powerful, aoe stunning enraged mobs in mythic+. Chi-Ji, exells at any given moments. JadeWind cost way to much mana and statue now suck even more then before.

Can see someone thinking our tanking healing is low when Sheilun's Gift isnt on live. Seeing it crit for 1.5+ million.

BTW rising sun kick does cost mana, 24750 mana at 110. 2 Rising Sun kicks are 1 Vivifies.

[xdmemes]

I would say never Vivify spam anything.

Try to avoid casting Vivify without the +40% proc. You sometimes "need" to cast it without the proc when you are weaving EM and Vivify with Lifecycles talent, but preferably dont do that, use Effuse instead.

If there is a suitable scenario to cast Vivify then cast it - don't sit around waiting for procs. The idea that you should never cast Vivify without UT is completely void of reality.

[Supliftz]

So, in that scenario, the math (if I did it right) works out slightly in Mana Tea's favor, like this (assuming no Demonic Phylactery):

Using TFT only on two free Vivifies, it's 7200 mana x 2 = 14,400 savings every 30 seconds, or 43,200/1.5min.

With Mana Tea, you can cast Vivify maybe 8 times during the ten seconds of MT (my current haste produces a 1.28sec casting time, or 7.8 casts, but let's assume some folks have better haste than me). 7200x8=57,600/2=28,800. But you also get 3 free taps of Vivify from unfocused TFT, so that's another savings of 7200x3=21,600. That's a total savings of 50,400.

That's not too far off, given that Mana Tea requires a manual click, so IMO Focused Thunder wins here, especially if you take into consideration (as you point out) that most people hold 1.5-minute CDs rather than casting them on cooldown. If you hold Mana Tea for emergencies then it's (presumably) always a net loss against FT.

(Edit: Of course if you use your TFTs for other things instead of Vivify, then all bets are off, and there's certainly an argument to be made about flexibility with mana tea.)

(Someone check my math, please. I'm usually an idiot in one way or another.)

- - - Updated - - -

On a separate note, have you all noticed that you can cast Essence Font while floating with Zen Flight? Some kind of bug, I guess. Can't imagine that would have much applicability in raids, but it might be useful for open world PVP.

This doesn't seem correct for FT vs mana tea mana wise. I have 20% haste, which gives me 8 casts under mana tea, so lets go with that. Casting vivify 8 times is 4.5x8/2 = 18% mana saved every 90 seconds.

FT gives me 3 extra tft vivifies per 90 seconds, which gives mand 4.5x3= 13.5% mana saved every 90 seconds.

So no, mana tea is the superior talent for mana sustain at 110.

[lcs]

This doesn't seem correct for FT vs mana tea mana wise. I have 20% haste, which gives me 8 casts under mana tea, so lets go with that. Casting vivify 8 times is 4.5x8/2 = 18% mana saved every 90 seconds.

FT gives me 3 extra tft vivifies per 90 seconds, which gives mand 4.5x3= 13.5% mana saved every 90 seconds.

So no, mana tea is the superior talent for mana sustain at 110.

That assumes you're casting mana tea on cooldown and hitting 8 vivifies, which is unlikely.

[Floopa]

@Floopa Flipper whats the best healing spec come first Legion raid?

i think shaman > druid > holy priest > mw = paladin > disc personally

[jasdasm]

is the spec actually different on 110 ? right now i dont know what the point is in continuing playing a MW... all the fun is gone

[Supliftz]

That assumes you're casting mana tea on cooldown and hitting 8 vivifies, which is unlikely.

Why would you not hit mana tea on cd?

[Puupi]

Why would you not hit mana tea on cd?

If there isn't anything to heal.

[Deleted]

Lots of people here mention Essence Font, which I find weird because i checked some of Suplift his HFC mythic logs and he doesn't use EF, or maybe one or twice max per boss.

[Deleted]

Following all the RT vs MT vs FT discussion here - I get that for lower hps and better mana management, Rising thunder may be good for raids, but in Mythic+ dungeons, is it even sustainable? I mean, in the videos I have seen there was really little time for the healer to do anything else than heal. Maybe the method of standing in melee and just occasionally pressing RSK for the reset would work...

[Deleted]

That assumes you're casting mana tea on cooldown and hitting 8 vivifies, which is unlikely.

On the other hand, you guys also assume, that someone will use every single TFT on Vivify, and that's just as unlikely.

[Supliftz]

Lots of people here mention Essence Font, which I find weird because i checked some of Suplift his HFC mythic logs and he doesn't use EF, or maybe one or twice max per boss.

because you have no reason to press ef because extend life exists.