What's up with Jainas attitude towards the horde all of the sudden?(Invasion Spoiler)

[Taeldorian]

I'm sorry, could you remind me again why in the fuck Sylvanas has to do anything more than sound that horn for Varian to know what's going on?

You mean sound the horn 1 second before she's about to leave? As I said, worst form of retreat I've ever seen. Varian was planning the assault 1 second before she sounded that horn, neither side should be on different pages like that. Why does she have to do anything else other than sound the horn? Because that's what you're suppose to do when your in charge of anti air support. If your pulling back its your job to let the ground troops know asap and even lend them assistance if possible (wasn't in this situation). Blowing a horn while the ground troop commander is still planning an assault and has no idea a retreat is actually happening?

Sounds good to me, it's fantasy so can't really expect anything like that. Need something to drive the story aka Genn Greymane Vs Sylvanas Windrunner and keep that going.

@Nemmar I know this is a different thread, but as I'm typing this I couldn't help but laugh at what you said. It's 100% correct to the point where it's funny. Nobody will bother to clear up the misunderstanding because the plot needs to be fueled somehow. Definitely a cliche anime plot, no doubt.

[Aquamonkey]

he bombed the shit out of theramore filled with innocent civilians even though he killed a horde officer like 1 year before that for doing that exact thing

There were no civilians in Theramore when the bomb dropped.

People often debate whether Stonetalon Garrosh and MoP Garrosh are the same Warchief. Is there something afoot?
How so? He never ordered nukes wasted on civilian targets and still wouldn't. (DaveKosak)
It didn't seem he cared if Theramore had civs in ToW.
Theramore completely a military target, more so when the civs have chance to escape. (DaveKosak)

[shaunika123]

There were no civilians in Theramore when the bomb dropped.

People often debate whether Stonetalon Garrosh and MoP Garrosh are the same Warchief. Is there something afoot?
How so? He never ordered nukes wasted on civilian targets and still wouldn't. (DaveKosak)
It didn't seem he cared if Theramore had civs in ToW.
Theramore completely a military target, more so when the civs have chance to escape. (DaveKosak)

garrosh didnt know jaina evacuated so for all intents and purposes he did do the same thing, hell she only barely managed to do it, if not for baine she wouldnt have even had a shot, garrosh was gonna basically ambush them

[Vynny]

That's not how that works, at all. If you're going to retreat and you're in charge of Anti air support, you let your ground troops know you're going to retreat before you actually do it so they have a chance to get out, or else you have exactly what happened during the Broken Shore.

Varian was still planning the assault when the horde was starting to retreat and that's where the Horde fucked up. They didn't give a warning to the ground troops which resulted in both factions being on completely different steps (Varian planning the assault while the horde was preparing to retreat). No Bueno, in terms of military strategy that was the worst possible way to retreat I've ever seen.

Nobody should have stayed and fought, but you need to tell your ground troops about the retreat so they can get out first or at least have a chance to get out, that's that. No matter what circumstances your under, you need to let them know way faster than the Horde actually did. Not really their fault since everyone was basically down, but it's dishonorable and flat out wrong (yes, legitimately wrong, not just subjectively) to leave your ground troops while you (the anti Air Force) retreat.

You seem to be under the impression that they were an organized force with group coordination and some form of inter-army communication rather than what they were which was 2 different groups working together. How would Sylvanas communicate with Varian across the vast distance between them without also informing Gul'dan of their plans which would lead to their failure. It's all well and good to say that a lack of communication between the two factions led to Varian's death, but to blame that on the Horde side when it's a consequence of their ragtag military alliance is just stupid. I mean, I'll change my position on this as soon as someone tells me a way that Sylvanas could've informed Varian to retreat without also informing Gul'dan of that as well so that he wouldn't, I dunno, drop a fel reaver behind them in order to block their escape path . . . Seriosuly, just fill in that 1 gap then you win, but considering that they're normally enemy factions, I doubt that their military forces can communicate with each other on demand like that. That'd be like Russian Troops having access to the American Military's communications network, it wouldn't happen.

[Deleted]

1. During that scenario both factions should’ve agreed on a retreat signal beforehand. Varian didn’t recognize the horn and was disappointed when the rangers retreated.

2. Neither Genn nor Jaina could blame the Horde for losing Varian. Jaina was there at the shore till the very moment they engaged Gul’dan, but then again wasn’t seen until the fight was over – where exactly did she go? WTF? Why didn’t she mass teleport all troops on the Skybreaker and secure an escape?

3. Where was Khadgar? At the Vault welcoming the DHs, when nobody called him, so why was he there initially? Gul’dan was there in the beginning, too, wouldn’t he had time to join the Alliance and safe the day on the shore?

[Vynny]

what? she started garrisoning troops because garrosh was LITERALLY Marching on theramore and has already captured northwatch

garrosh had the bomb way before jaina garrisoned anyone

also theramore was NEVER neutral, it just had a truce with the horde, but it was still an alliance settlement
garrosh wanted all of kalimdor to himself so he marched on them using whatever he could, he bombed the shit out of theramore filled with innocent civilians even though he killed a horde officer like 1 year before that for doing that exact thing

jaina had every right to be fucking pissed

then again, i thought she sort of calmed down at the end of War Crimes, but that's another story.

No, Theramore was used as the Alliance launching point for military invasions of Kalimdor throughout Cataclysm. The troops were there in the first place to invade Horde lands. What do you call having a truce with one side of a two sided conflict? Could it be that if I have a truce with the Horde that I'm expected to not help the Alliance invade Horde owned lands? Hmmmmmmm, I wonder, would such a truce effectively make me a neutral party in between the two global superpowers? The answer is yes, if you didn't get that.

Also, yes, Jaina had every right to be pissed . . . at herself for breaking the truce that protected Theramore in the first place. Don't wanna bring ruin to your people? Don't piss off a global superpower that's a few miles away in service to one that's an ocean away.

[shaunika123]

No, Theramore was used as the Alliance launching point for military invasions of Kalimdor throughout Cataclysm. The troops were there in the first place to invade Horde lands. What do you call having a truce with one side of a two sided conflict? Could it be that if I have a truce with the Horde that I'm expected to not help the Alliance invade Horde owned lands? Hmmmmmmm, I wonder, would such a truce effectively make me a neutral party in between the two global superpowers? The answer is yes, if you didn't get that.

Also, yes, Jaina had every right to be pissed . . . at herself for breaking the truce that protected Theramore in the first place. Don't wanna bring ruin to your people? Don't piss off a global superpower that's a few miles away in service to one that's an ocean away.

the horde attacked ashenvale first man, garrosh was the one that broke the truce, and then he commited like 50 thousand war crimes in the following two years, so yeah jaina should be pissed, and not at herself.

[Vynny]

Wrong, the truce ended in Cataclysm when the Horde invaded Ashenvale.

The horde didn't have a truce with Ashenvale, they had a truce with Theramore. Those are two different issues. The Horde invading Ashenvale does not give Theramore justification to break their truce with the Horde in order to help the Alliance invade the Barrens without consequences. They may have chosen to break the truce in light of the Horde's actions and Thrall stepping down as warchief, but the one's who broke the truce were Jaina and Theramore. The Horde did not attack Theramore until Theramore broke the truce and helped the Alliance invade the Barrens.

[Littlepwny]

Jaina lost quite a bit due to the horde, the ironic thing is, now that she has suffered true loss, like her father before her she has become very much like him.

It's quite funny actually considering that is exactly what her father had said to her. He had said something along the lines of "You were too young to remember what these monsters did to our homeland". Given that her father's death was her own choice and ignoring the humans that died to Thrall/Grom in Kalimdor, Theramore was her first real loss to the orcs.

Personally, I do not mind the anti-Horde sentiments but, as usual, they are presented on a negative light. But less so for the Broken Shore at least; it does look from the Alliance perspective that the forsaken archers casually retreated.

[Vynny]

Neutral means something pretty specific in WoW terms. Theramore was unambiguously militarized and fortified, and it had some tacit armistice with the Horde, but was also expanding its footprint. I don't defend Garrosh or his tactics, but Theramore was a legitimate military target, it wasn't Thal'darah or something.

I should've said they had a truce. I was speaking more in terms of real world military neutrality rather than game mechanic neutrality in that Theramore had a truce with the Horde and as such was expected to not do something like help the Alliance invade the Barrens which effectively meant that Theramore was in a neutral position between the two factions where they weren't allied with the Horde, but also weren't enemies with them and they weren't to help the Alliance in harming the Horde.

[Kathranis]

garrosh didnt know jaina evacuated so for all intents and purposes he did do the same thing, hell she only barely managed to do it, if not for baine she wouldnt have even had a shot, garrosh was gonna basically ambush them

That's not how I recall it happening. Didn't Garrosh amass his forces and wait outside the city for like a week while the citizens were evacuated and the Alliance military was brought in to reinforce Theramore? Then he launched the surprise mana bomb attack and decimated their army, and most of its leadership, in one fell swoop.

[Deathquoi]

The horde didn't have a truce with Ashenvale, they had a truce with Theramore. Those are two different issues. The Horde invading Ashenvale does not give Theramore justification to break their truce with the Horde in order to help the Alliance invade the Barrens without consequences. They may have chosen to break the truce in light of the Horde's actions and Thrall stepping down as warchief, but the one's who broke the truce were Jaina and Theramore. The Horde did not attack Theramore until Theramore broke the truce and helped the Alliance invade the Barrens.

You can think whatever you want, but trying to paint Theramore as the aggressor is silly and wrong. But you clearly like being silly and wrong, so whatever. Garrosh commits whatever war crimes he wants and Jaina is the bad guy for defending her people.

[Selandras]

Question...

Where the fuck is Khadgar while all this shit goes down?

If you play through the Demon Hunter opening you'll see what/where Khadgar was during the invasion (it also explains why DHs are not present).

3. Where was Khadgar? At the Vault welcoming the DHs, when nobody called him, so why was he there initially? Gul’dan was there in the beginning, too, wouldn’t he had time to join the Alliance and safe the day on the shore?

In the audio drama Maiev feared that Gul'dan and the Legion's ultimate prize was Illidan's remains, so it's pretty safe to assume that she called Khadgar once the Vault of the Wardens was assaulted (consider that she was so concerned that she released the imprisoned Demon Hunters!). Gul'dan and his new buddy flee, presumably back to the Tomb of Sargeras (which I *think* is where the Broken Isle assault ends?) which explains his presence and why Khadgar is missing. From a lore perspective it makes sense, a group of previously imprisoned powerful frenemies are out and about who are uniquely qualified to fight the Legion - better get chummy!

I'm assuming the timeline goes something like:

Tomb of Sargeras Audio Drama -> Khadgar Harbinger's Episode -> Broken Isle scenario/Demon Hunter opening

[My User Name]

Oh, didn't you hear? She was a dreadlord. Real Jaina died in Theramore.

[Deleted]

Yes, together. I can't believe no one understands what being a coward is. They might have died, but that's exactly what being brave is all about: knowing you probably won't make it, but still helping your allies out when they need you.

Regardless, I'm glad I'm Alliance. I would be ashamed of being Horde right now. Even more if I was defending their decision.

She did inform Varian about their retreat. He wasn't as stupid as some of other people apprently, as he knew what the horn sound meant. That's why he decided to retreat as well. You can't really blame anyone that a 100xsize fel reaver wasn't expected by neither of the sides.

Wow, you are really trying to make it sound convincing.

How about Varian not sending a squad towards horde to see what happened that they had to retreat? Why didn't he assist us then? I see no horde blaming him for that, so you shouldn't blame the Horde either. Unless you are deluded, that is.


By your definition of brave - only Varian is brave out of this cinematic. After all Greymane listened to Varian and ran away as well
And one more thing - Victory or death is an Orc created line, it's been a while since we had that one in charge, hasn't it?

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

You mean sound the horn 1 second before she's about to leave? As I said, worst form of retreat I've ever seen. Varian was planning the assault 1 second before she sounded that horn, neither side should be on different pages like that. Why does she have to do anything else other than sound the horn? Because that's what you're suppose to do when your in charge of anti air support. If your pulling back its your job to let the ground troops know asap and even lend them assistance if possible (wasn't in this situation). Blowing a horn while the ground troop commander is still planning an assault and has no idea a retreat is actually happening?

Sounds good to me, it's fantasy so can't really expect anything like that. Need something to drive the story aka Genn Greymane Vs Sylvanas Windrunner and keep that going.

@Nemmar I know this is a different thread, but as I'm typing this I couldn't help but laugh at what you said. It's 100% correct to the point where it's funny. Nobody will bother to clear up the misunderstanding because the plot needs to be fueled somehow. Definitely a cliche anime plot, no doubt.

She gave as much warning as she was able. Staying long enough to completely cover the Alliance retreat would have meant sacrificing all of the Horde forces...which isn't really great strategy. As it was...most of both armies were able to escape. All in all, as far as retreats go, it worked out pretty well. Sorry 'bout your High King...but our Warchief was also slain.

[Sluvs]

the horde attacked ashenvale first man, garrosh was the one that broke the truce, and then he commited like 50 thousand war crimes in the following two years, so yeah jaina should be pissed, and not at herself.

The truce in ashenvale is completely different beast than the truce of theramore. Mainly because the hostilities in ashenvale never really ceased, they stil had skirmishes, quests in old ashenvale and the battleground shows that pretty clearly. Now theramore had a specific deal with the horde, continue as a trading port and a civilian outpost and we will ignore you. As soon as Jaina moved military troops through theramore she broke the truce. As simple as that.

[Vynny]

You can think whatever you want, but trying to paint Theramore as the aggressor is silly and wrong. But you clearly like being silly and wrong, so whatever. Garrosh commits whatever war crimes he wants and Jaina is the bad guy for defending her people.

two wrongs don't make a right . . . didn't you learn that in grade school? The point is that Jaina wasn't some innocent victim in all of it, she clearly broke the truce and drew the ire of the Horde for that and as such became a legitimate military target for the Horde. If she didn't want to put her people in the cross-hairs, then she shouldn't have broken the truce. Overall, she has just as much reason to hate herself for her shitty leadership as she does to hate the Horde for their military attacks that she was a victim of.

[Deleted]

If you play through the Demon Hunter opening you'll see what/where Khadgar was during the invasion (it also explains why DHs are not present).



In the audio drama Maiev feared that Gul'dan and the Legion's ultimate prize was Illidan's remains, so it's pretty safe to assume that she called Khadgar once the Vault of the Wardens was assaulted (consider that she was so concerned that she released the imprisoned Demon Hunters!). I'm assuming the timeline goes something like:

Tomb of Sargeras Audio Drama -> Khadgar Harbinger's Episode -> Broken Isle scenario/Demon Hunter opening

Makes only partly sense though. I think it was Maiev that said DHs should seek out Khadgar and tell him what happened. And then again, Gul'dan was there at the Vault, when the DHs tell him what happened he should've insta ported himself to aid the push on Gul'dan.

Besides that: Khadgar should've had a higher interest in the Broken Shore than in the Vault, because he constantly states that we only have a chance if we are united and he could've forseen that when anything goes wrong the factions are at each others throats. Additionally I thought the BS mission was to kill Gul'dan and close the portal - both should be his highest interest because he feels responsible for everything Gul'dan does after setting him free on Draenor and because is there even one person present that has the knowledge to close that portal?

I cannot see how these two events - both involving Gul'dan - happening at the same time. Gul'dan was present at the Vault from the beginning till they fled with Illidan's corpse, we talked to Khadgar only moments later (securing 1 floor of the Vault and that's it). Gul'dan was also present on the Broken Shore, which should've taken arguably longer (securing the beach, looking for Varian, destroy some BL city, find Tirion). Both Illidari and BS people arrive in Stormwind at around the same time.

[Lochton]

I don't know all of the lore but I clearly remember how she was ok with helping the horde against her father and ultimately being the reason why her father died. I always liked her and her views on everything and I thought she would be the first person on Alliance side who would try and figure out what happened and why horde abandoned them.

Instead she acted all hissy-pissy like, saying that she now hates the horde and wants revenge. I really didn't get that part. I expected a lot more from her.

I wouldn't call it 'all of the sudden'.

Let me summarize the last few years for you:
1.: Theamore was blown up.
1½.: Oh, and her favorite student was in the Theramore bombing, as well as a lot of her friends, actual friends.
2.: Her vengenace was stopped, just to find out that the Horde wasn't going to stop.
3.: Her city was blown up do to a sin'dorei traitor.
4.: Her people joined the Alliance efford, just to be taunted by the Blood elves.
5.: She was refused a seat at the council of six due to recent events.
6.: Nethergarde Keep was sacked.
7.: Khadgar took over her property set up in the alternate Draenor, sending her away like a little child.
8.: And now the future tells her that she is to lose more... Questline should've been available in the pre-patch but seem bugged.