Fury Legion Discussion

[Deleted]

First off, Demo wasn't nerfed "to the ground". It was still upper-middle of the pack for the entirety of HFC, and in fact still competitive with Affliction until the end of the tier when the ring and abnormally short fights started skewing rankings, so maybe you should figure out what you're talking about before you butt your nose into a conversation without bothering to read the context of the discussion.

Second, that explanation, albeit poorly worded, was meant to say they didn't want people feeling forced to play (because we all know that players who don't rank anyway think playing the better spec is going to help them) Demo due to it being the top spec, in light of upcoming changes, so they made it worse. Worse =! the worst.

- - - Updated - - -



First of all, no they didn't.

Second, having a clue as to what "balance" means might help. A spec which is obviously overtuned, exploited, and subsequently brought down to the level of every other class is an example of good balancing. That's what supposed to happen, and it isn't as though either of these specs were nerfed until they were bottom of the barrel, they both continued to perform very well, sitting at least in the middle of the pack, which is precisely what balancing is supposed to do.

Understand that guilds like Method exploit these obvious imbalances, because they are pushing for world ranks. Normal players and normal guilds don't do that, and aren't expected to. It's why they run 5-8 split runs a tier and raid 80+ hours a week.

But other top guilds like paragon or nihilum had 3 ww monks. Which they abandoned shortly after they cleared mythic Highmaul. It was a big swing from top dps to the middle of the pack or not even. And WW monks were meh thru entire expansion, and unless u really like WW monk, u might as well play something else and do much better. I know one thing tho, if that was a mage, nerf wouldn't be half as big as it was WW monks. Blizz obviously has a hard on for mages.

It's take to extremes when people start looking at <10% differences and qq'ing that things aren't going their way, without realizing how small a difference that really is.

That is far from truth. I know u are trying to be mr right all the time but ill stick with numbers anyway. Warcraft logs give u perfectly clear picture how imbalanced specs or even classes were (https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...mount&region=1). Now look at survival hunter, and fire and arcane mages. Does average seems 10% of each other? Or frost DK's or fury warriors? And pls don't tell me how fury warriors shined on aoe fights like Mann or Iskar. It's purely cuz of bladestorm, it had nothing to do with skill or well balance by any means. I want to be able to beat other classes with my SPEC and a little bit of good RNG, not with one ability. I'm not saying all this, just to cry how specs were imbalanced, its more how Blizz fails to create consistency. And not only by changing numbers on abilities, but also by adding stupid items like the legendary ring, which was ok for progression, and terrible on farm. My argument can back up this logs up there. U can see example arms warrior is pretty high up there, and only reason for that is "exploit" aka running at least 100 yards from everyone else and do pre pull ring. IT was horrible design and thank God that is over now. However I have high hopes for Legion, I think they learned a lesson, specs look much better now with less RNG, and legendary rings while they will have an impact on your personal ranking, it won't be a game changer on progress or farm like it was WoD leg ring.

[Deleted]

First off, Demo wasn't nerfed "to the ground". It was still upper-middle of the pack for the entirety of HFC, and in fact still competitive with Affliction until the end of the tier when the ring and abnormally short fights started skewing rankings, so maybe you should figure out what you're talking about before you butt your nose into a conversation without bothering to read the context of the discussion.

no, demo was not middle of the pack during HFC progression. They got pushed up in damage statistics due to two good fights where they were viable, but otherwise they were well behind affli as well as destro and any other viable spec for HFC.

I don't say that it is a common occurence for blizzard to completely destroy a spec, but to say that it never happened is just blind fanboyism.

[Khelon]

That is far from truth. I know u are trying to be mr right all the time but ill stick with numbers anyway. Warcraft logs give u perfectly clear picture how imbalanced specs or even classes were (https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...=amount®ion=1). Now look at survival hunter, and fire and arcane mages.

If you are going to stick to numbers why dont you stick to numbers that actually matter?

Logs at the end of an expansion consist of a lot of this: 17 Arcane mages, 1 Balance druid, 1 Warlock & a Monk tank

And because those exist, it pushes one class higher than others. If you looked more closely on the period when world first race was still going, a lot the specs were useful.

This is why I wish warcraft logs had an option "First 3 months of the tier" so people could see which classes were useful on progress and which werent without looking closely (because a lot of people including you clearly dont).

[Deleted]

If you are going to stick to numbers why dont you stick to numbers that actually matter?

Logs at the end of an expansion consist of a lot of this: 17 Arcane mages, 1 Balance druid, 1 Warlock & a Monk tank

And because those exist, it pushes one class higher than others. If you looked more closely on the period when world first race was still going, a lot the specs were useful.

This is why I wish warcraft logs had an option "First 3 months of the tier" so people could see which classes were useful on progress and which werent without looking closely (because a lot of people including you clearly dont).

Oh sorry, i didn't know there are numbers that ACTUALLY matter rofl. They all matter, and this is why I mention how inconsistent their system is. And not only by one class out scaling other, but also imbalanced items like WoDs leg ring. I want my spec to be competitive on every level. That means on progression, ST, AOE and Cleave type of fights, and also on the farm all 3 types of encounters. It was a pretty sad sight when I was number 1 dps on Xhul as fury on progression, and almost last on the farm, cuz fire mages melted imps in 2 seconds, and two big adds lived for like half minute if that. Like I said, all numbers matter to me, so when I clear content and there are only speed kills and rankings left to do, I still want something to look forward to and not be like "oh no another Wednesday, I wonder if ill beat frost DK and enhance this time, so I'm not right above tanks, and too far behind mages.

[Deleted]

I was wondering what your opinion was if Blizzard was to implement the following talent.

Some people don't like a GCD locked spec and other people like a GCD locked spec. Fury is a GCD locked spec cuz of Furious Slash. Enhancement Shaman is also a GCD locked spec unless you take Boulderfist which makes your filler ability on a charge system. Demon Hunter is also a GCD locked spec unless you take Demon Blades, which makes your filler ability baked into your auto attack. My suggestion is to give Furious Slash the Demon Blades treatment. Something like "Furious Fire":

Your auto attacks have a 25% chance to deal additional Fire damage and increase the critical strike chance of your next Bloodthirst by 50%. Replaces Furious Slash.

The numbers can of course be changed. This talent could replace Fresh Meat, Reckless Abandon, Outburst (cuz these are the worst 3 talents in my opinion) or maybe even Frothing Berserker. This talent gives you to option to longer play a GCD locked spec while still preserving the option to a GCD locked spec to the people who like it. The modifications to Furious Slash via Frenzy and the Artifact could be applied to this passive aswell similar to how Warlock talents and artifacts change when you take the Grimoire of Sacrifice talent.

[Deleted]

How do you all handle AoE?

Currently i'm just spamming WW + BT, but should i throw in a Rampage with Meat Cleaver buff when its up?

[Warriorsarri]

Use Rampage when enrage is down, and you have the Meat Cleave buff up. It's worth using until like 15+ targets. (May be better for burst AoE to simply spam WW, but I don't know for sure)

[Deleted]

Use Rampage when enrage is down, and you have the Meat Cleave buff up. It's worth using until like 15+ targets. (May be better for burst AoE to simply spam WW, but I don't know for sure)

So to clarify:

When no enrage use Ramp (With MC), otherwise WW + BT (With MC) spam?

[Khelon]

Oh sorry, i didn't know there are numbers that ACTUALLY matter rofl. They all matter, and this is why I mention how inconsistent their system is. And not only by one class out scaling other, but also imbalanced items like WoDs leg ring. I want my spec to be competitive on every level. That means on progression, ST, AOE and Cleave type of fights, and also on the farm all 3 types of encounters. It was a pretty sad sight when I was number 1 dps on Xhul as fury on progression, and almost last on the farm, cuz fire mages melted imps in 2 seconds, and two big adds lived for like half minute if that. Like I said, all numbers matter to me, so when I clear content and there are only speed kills and rankings left to do, I still want something to look forward to and not be like "oh no another Wednesday, I wonder if ill beat frost DK and enhance this time, so I'm not right above tanks, and too far behind mages.

Some classes scale better than other, some have better burst and some depend on targets staying alive for a long period. Fury was one of them that wanted targets to stay up for at least 15 sec thanks to EDH and our burst wasnt exactly that great on single target compared to other classes. We are bound to drop off when content is outgeared by 15-20 ilvls and things like legendary ring exist. Its also the last raid tier of the expansion and lasted for like 12-13 months. Everything is figured out, even the cheesing that doesnt cause a wipe (like desyncing ring) and everyone is probably whoring aoe dps if they can. But on progress its so different and you have to do whats best for the guild in order to kill the boss.

Take tyrant progression as an example. The boss was priority for most guilds and the add was supposed to be cleaved on. Even when the add dropped below 35% hp, hunters should not swap to it and killshot, as it would not increase damage on the boss, it would only increase their own dps. Warriors could swap because of execute cleave when its below 20% and because hunters are probably using killshot on farm, the add's lifetime is shorter. This decrease our cleaving dps and reduces the amount of mortal strike procs we get as we only have one target to rend compared to constant 2 targets.

So even if you want them to balance encounters around your farm, it would probably make the encounter worse overall.

Did you never swap to arms for xhul farm?

[Smog]

Sorry if this has been discussed somewhere. but i saw in the arms thread the best pathing for the artifact weapon.. fury seems a bit stright forward but was wondering if someone could tell me the best path to go for fury artifact weapon?

This is well documented within this thread, within the last 3-5 pages no less. Please search threads prior to reposting questions that have been asked numerous times.

When no enrage use Ramp (With MC), otherwise WW + BT (With MC) spam?

Yes, you aoe just like you do anything else with Fury: get enraged, and stay enraged as long as possible. Once enraged, use your highest dps abilities. So get enraged, and then use MC+BT and WW.

The rotations have been discussed throughout the thread and are also available on the Icy Veins guide http://www.icy-veins.com/wow/fury-warrior-pve-dps-guide

[Deleted]

Some classes scale better than other, some have better burst and some depend on targets staying alive for a long period. Fury was one of them that wanted targets to stay up for at least 15 sec thanks to EDH and our burst wasnt exactly that great on single target compared to other classes. We are bound to drop off when content is outgeared by 15-20 ilvls and things like legendary ring exist. Its also the last raid tier of the expansion and lasted for like 12-13 months. Everything is figured out, even the cheesing that doesnt cause a wipe (like desyncing ring) and everyone is probably whoring aoe dps if they can. But on progress its so different and you have to do whats best for the guild in order to kill the boss.

Take tyrant progression as an example. The boss was priority for most guilds and the add was supposed to be cleaved on. Even when the add dropped below 35% hp, hunters should not swap to it and killshot, as it would not increase damage on the boss, it would only increase their own dps. Warriors could swap because of execute cleave when its below 20% and because hunters are probably using killshot on farm, the add's lifetime is shorter. This decrease our cleaving dps and reduces the amount of mortal strike procs we get as we only have one target to rend compared to constant 2 targets.

So even if you want them to balance encounters around your farm, it would probably make the encounter worse overall.

Did you never swap to arms for xhul farm?

That's why I said they should never make another item like WoDs legendary ring, not everyone has great burst, and u have to do a workaround to get higher rankings. I don't think Legions legendary will have such impact, but as far as I tested nothing's too crazy except this Ayala's leg ring, which makes your opener and rotation much better.

I did swap once to arms on Xhul. But I had issues with tab targeting to apply rend on big adds, and tab targeting small for execute snipe. It was too much struggle and sometimes I went full tunnel mode and end up in a purple circle from adds.

[Archimtiros]

But other top guilds like paragon or nihilum had 3 ww monks. Which they abandoned shortly after they cleared mythic Highmaul. It was a big swing from top dps to the middle of the pack or not even. And WW monks were meh thru entire expansion, and unless u really like WW monk, u might as well play something else and do much better. I know one thing tho, if that was a mage, nerf wouldn't be half as big as it was WW monks. Blizz obviously has a hard on for mages.

Go back and re-read what I wrote regarding class stacking and top-tier guilds and try again. Do you even know why WW monks were being stacked for the few fights in which they were? I'll give you a hint, it's not because they were overtuned, but due to mechanics.

That is far from truth. I know u are trying to be mr right all the time but ill stick with numbers anyway. Warcraft logs give u perfectly clear picture how imbalanced specs or even classes were (https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...=amount®ion=1). Now look at survival hunter, and fire and arcane mages. Does average seems 10% of each other? Or frost DK's or fury warriors? And pls don't tell me how fury warriors shined on aoe fights like Mann or Iskar. It's purely cuz of bladestorm, it had nothing to do with skill or well balance by any means. I want to be able to beat other classes with my SPEC and a little bit of good RNG, not with one ability. I'm not saying all this, just to cry how specs were imbalanced, its more how Blizz fails to create consistency. And not only by changing numbers on abilities, but also by adding stupid items like the legendary ring, which was ok for progression, and terrible on farm. My argument can back up this logs up there. U can see example arms warrior is pretty high up there, and only reason for that is "exploit" aka running at least 100 yards from everyone else and do pre pull ring. IT was horrible design and thank God that is over now. However I have high hopes for Legion, I think they learned a lesson, specs look much better now with less RNG, and legendary rings while they will have an impact on your personal ranking, it won't be a game changer on progress or farm like it was WoD leg ring.

I didn't say any of what you're responding to, so I'm not sure what your point is. I said people look at <10% difference and QQ about it like it's the difference between the DPS of an Arcane Mage and a Resto Druid, I didn't say that the largest differences in the game were only 10%.

If you want to tangentialize, feel free, but don't feel the need to quote me in it.

- - - Updated - - -

no, demo was not middle of the pack during HFC progression. They got pushed up in damage statistics due to two good fights where they were viable, but otherwise they were well behind affli as well as destro and any other viable spec for HFC.

I don't say that it is a common occurence for blizzard to completely destroy a spec, but to say that it never happened is just blind fanboyism.

Like the other poster, I think you failed to actually read what was written. Demo was very much performing at a competitive level during HFC. That isn't to say many were playing Demo, which is obvious, they weren't, because there were better options; but it certainly didn't go from being the top spec down to the level of Glad or Surv.

You, like many other players, seem to have a serious problem understanding that "not best" =! "worst". It's like saying that Fury was nerfed into the ground because Arms is better, which is blatantly untrue, or that Arms was nerfed into the ground after it's tier nerf, despite the fact that the spec still performed competitively overall.

[Knifttar]

It seems to me like common sense would dictate that you also take reduced damage while enraged in PVP too..

[cFortyfive]

I'll give you a hint, it's not because they were overtuned, but due to mechanics.

At the very least the cleave was overtuned - I'd actually say the class as a whole was considering their overall kit before the at least three nerfs between hm and brf. They could have opted to make the them less gimmicky but I suppose sef is their bladestorm.

welp there goes the old don't worry guys, you'l be able to heal. I remember seeing beta fury healing as quite a balancing problem but it seems they've fixed that by making it shit.

Well at least you'll still have your healer having to waste more heals on you .

[PsyWulf]

Oh sorry, i didn't know there are numbers that ACTUALLY matter rofl. They all matter, and this is why I mention how inconsistent their system is. And not only by one class out scaling other, but also imbalanced items like WoDs leg ring. I want my spec to be competitive on every level. That means on progression, ST, AOE and Cleave type of fights, and also on the farm all 3 types of encounters.

Why? Game might as well just have 3 classes with 1 spec each then. If everyone was exactly the same there's little need to differentiate

Like I said, all numbers matter to me, so when I clear content and there are only speed kills and rankings left to do, I still want something to look forward to and not be like "oh no another Wednesday, I wonder if ill beat frost DK and enhance this time, so I'm not right above tanks, and too far behind mages.

DPS numbers are fairly easy to deflate/inflate when the sample size is shrunk due to shorter combat times and surprisingly enough not everyone has the same cooldowns multipliers and scaling on each button on their actionbars - thankfully

In fact i'm fairly impressed how well the balancing is done given that fights are so creatively different (outliers excepted of course)

You seem to have taken your argument from "Blizz nerfs with a nuclear weapon instead of a fine chisel" to "everybody must be the same or it's unfair"

[Roiids]

I'm not going to say much about balancing until a few weeks after the raids open. If memory serves correctly there was a considerate balance patch like 2 weeks into Highmaul. Overall play what you like. I tried ret out to start WOD because I thought it would do better numbers wise, and in the end I came back to warrior two weeks in because I enjoyed playing it that much more, even if the dps ranking was lower.

[Deleted]

Why? Game might as well just have 3 classes with 1 spec each then. If everyone was exactly the same there's little need to differentiate

No one said exactly the same, can u read? I said I want my spec to competitive on any type of encounter. That means, each spec in the game has the potential to be top or also bottom depends on your skill your talent choice gear and RNG. And I guess that is their goal for Legion with artifact weapons, they want ppl to find their desired spec and have fun with it. If Blizz by default butcher your spec you are pretty much done. U see what happened with survival hunters in WoD? Why do you think so few ppl played that spec. Cuz it was awful, there wasn't a single fight in HFC survival hunter had potential to be top (by top I don't mean first but in at least first 3-4), but always had potential to be last.

DPS numbers are fairly easy to deflate/inflate when the sample size is shrunk due to shorter combat times and surprisingly enough not everyone has the same cooldowns multipliers and scaling on each button on their actionbars - thankfully

In fact i'm fairly impressed how well the balancing is done given that fights are so creatively different (outliers excepted of course)

You seem to have taken your argument from "Blizz nerfs with a nuclear weapon instead of a fine chisel" to "everybody must be the same or it's unfair"

They had all the time in the world to test stuff. Don't tell me they didn't KNOW what's going to happen and how things gonna scale. They have much better simulators than theory crafters, they have entire test team. They knew ppl will kill Iron Reaver in 20 seconds, cuz they tested, but they just didn't care. And while classes were somewhat balanced on progress this leg ring fked up everything, and I don't know if they overlooked the fact how some classes have stronger burst and it will create big gaps between one arcane mage doing 1 mil DPS, and one fury warrior barely passing 200k DPS I don't know, just hoping it won't happen again. Stuff like that takes all the fun out of the game. They could easily prevent this by adding a limit to rings power. So ring while active increases your dmg by x% and when the effect ends player unleashes a blast of light equal to x% dmg done UP TO X number. That would prevent classes with a crazy burst like mages and rogues to leave you miles behind when ring explodes. I see they've done things like that with some of the Legions trinkets. But lets forget about WoD and focus more on Legion. I think there will be far better balance regardless of new legendary items, they don't seem so powerful and game breaking like WoDs ring. Some of them, however, will be necessary if u want to compete for highest rankings. And shorter combat times won't matter as much in Legion cuz there is no WoDs leg ring. It will more depend on your raid setup, your gear, proper trinkets and talents for shorter fights, and RNG ofc.

[Roiids]

That legendary ring has just been cancer in my opinion. Folks arguing about popping it, balance issues, blah blah it just was a lot of stress that wasn't necessary IMO. Especially for an item you are supposed to LOVE getting. My hope for Legion legendaries is that since they are class oriented they were balanced better. I honestly have zero experience with them yet because I want them to feel fresh live.

[Warriorsarri]

They had all the time in the world to test stuff. Don't tell me they didn't KNOW what's going to happen and how things gonna scale. They have much better simulators than theory crafters, they have entire test team. They knew ppl will kill Iron Reaver in 20 seconds, cuz they tested, but they just didn't care.

Two things, they don't have better sims, or we wouldn't be able to constantly find better ways to do things.
Secondtly, their internal raid testing team is sub-par, to be polite.

[Deleted]

That legendary ring has just been cancer in my opinion. Folks arguing about popping it, balance issues, blah blah it just was a lot of stress that wasn't necessary IMO. Especially for an item you are supposed to LOVE getting. My hope for Legion legendaries is that since they are class oriented they were balanced better. I honestly have zero experience with them yet because I want them to feel fresh live.

I can see why the thought it's a good idea, and tbh for progress it wasn't a bad idea at all. It gave guilds something more than just "this is mechanics lets pull the boss". Also since the ring was steadily becoming stronger, it would give guilds easier time while clearing bosses they just have done progressing. Example Gorefiend was a really hard boss on progress on mythic, and they knew that, so their vision was, once guilds kill Gorefiend it will still be a hard boss, but ring each week will make it easier, cuz not only it scales with itself, by upgrading it but also with players gear. But they overlooked the fact that HFC will be out for 12 months, and most of the top guilds will clear it in less than a 3 months. And that leaves you with 9 MONTHS of the farm. How couldn't they see that? All this time, leg ring was the only burden which u have to carry around every week. I know the struggle we were about to pull Iron Reaver, I had to take the portal to upper, pop ring go back down. The leader did ready check someone wasn't ready, my ring was wasted. Or we do ready check I pop ring, and then they decide to summon someone else who needs something from Iron Reaver. Or I pop ring too late, and I got it up when Reaver is about 15% health, and not even get an explosion. What a fking nightmare.