What's up with Jainas attitude towards the horde all of the sudden?(Invasion Spoiler)

[Combatbutler]

snip.

Theramore was not neutral and not innocent end of story. Was it over the top to utterly level the place, yeah it was. But it doesn't change the fact that it made itself a legitimate military target.

[steelballfc]

I'd like to offer some of my thoughts after reading through the thread and maybe someone could point out some things for me?

What kind of quest or book mentions a truce between OG and Theramore and more importantly the conditions for it? The same goes for Ashenvale. To get some more understanding of what actually happened with Theramore what books should I read? From what I understand it's Warcrimes but would some other book(s) give it more context?

read Cycle of Hatred and the WoW comics.
the agreement was stop all conflicts between Horde and Theramore, Use Ratchat as Natural Trading post for both, start some kind of marketing between H and Theramore, and last Thrall agreed to meet the leader of the Alliance at some point for peace negotiation - the agreement was done in Cycle of Hatred book, and the meeting was in the comic - .

[Mehrunes]

And manner courses, yeah they are needed. I talk about fact. I did not go to the person writing it in the first place. I did it only after being called out several times.

You did it here, in post #247 (and that's ignoring your earlier post in which you called Kangodo a troll). These are all the replies to you in this thread prior to this: 1 2 3 4. Which of these four posts "called you out several times" before you wrote the first post I linked here?

Lol your funny,

While in the previous text you yourself linked, i state that i was not clear enough. So admitted to that? So i already own up to it. And now you say acting on info i only give. And not being clear enough is lying to you...okay..

The post I quoted says nothing about anything not being clear enough. You said Theramore was first act of the war and told Kangodo to get his facts straight. If claiming that Theramore was the first act of war is getting facts straight then in the context of your post in question there's nothing unclear. I don't know what you think I linked, but it wasn't what you claim here.

Because we are talking about chi-chi...its a jaina post dude. And the only women that i talk about ( in these post ).

That subtopic was about Garrosh, pandarans, Night Elves, Divine Bell and Vol'jin. So no. Hell, at first during this specific subtopic you tried to claim it has nothing to do with Jaina.

In the grand scheme of things she did she did almost nothing. And i said in a later post that yes she is not the best friend of it. But she does not activily wage war on that scale. And about talking about moving goalpost. Your the one tring change the subjects of my repsonse's everytime. And nuking a town is not mass murder???? that sick dude....

She led the offensive against Horde. She invades the most important Horde zones while Horde focused on outskirts. She planned to attack Orgrimmar already at the very start of the war. And where exactly have I changed subjects? Do point out that specifically. After all I did point out where you moved goalposts from Jaina not attacking the Horde. Because in post #244 I did address your specific posts point by point. I did the same in post #251 and post #306. And no, nuking military outpost filled only with military personnel is not mass murder. Don't use terms you don't understand.

wtf??? You where talking about the hord NEVER took land and answered you ? So i am not flailing around. I am just responding to you?

Yes, Orcs coming from another planet was very relevant to what you were responding to and wasn't an attempt at handwaving at all.

Yes the stormpikes acknowledged that....so did i . :P

You didn't even mention Stormpikes, Alterac Valley or Frostwolves. Look at all that acknowledgment.

And stealing tree's is not taking land?? you do know that building a tree farm in someone lands that stealing there tree's is kinda....stealing land??? Or can your neighbor move into your yard and setup shop there and start chopping down your plants without you getting pissed at him??

Theft requires intent. If the intent of Orcs was to steal lumber, as said even by the description of Warsong Gulch, i.e. the biggest clash about the issue prior to the Alliance-Horde war, then it's up to you to show that their intent was to also steal land. Not that land can actually be stolen under most legal systems, but whatever.

They are the most neutral because any other alliance race would join humans A.s.a.p. They are like the blood elfs, they are the least gun ho out of the bunch.

When was the last time that Night Elves delayed in aiding the Alliance?

And about the freaking bell. First the attack on theramor happend, the garrosh try's to kill vol'jin, the garrosh sabotage's talks with lor'thramar and only then did the bell thing happend. First of:
Reflecting on its misuse in the past and its potential for future misuse, Kalecgos ordered the Focusing Iris moved to a more secure location - encased in enchanted ice, magically warded, and dumped at the bottom of the Frozen Sea. However, the dragons sent to escort it were ambushed and killed by members of the Horde, who stole the Focusing Iris and used it to construct an enormous mana bomb to obliterate Theramore Isle.
So who did what first?

Yes, Divine Bell happened after Theramore. What of it? What also happened after Theramore was Jaina becoming the leader of the Kirin Tor and becoming neutral. If that was an attempt to explain how she didn't break neutrality because Theramore happened earlier, it failed. And the attack on Blue Dragonflight is relevant how?

Yes i spell words wrong, being non- english, dyslexic and word blind kinda makes this hard sometimes. And if you think i am making this up. This is not the first time i said this :P. And i told you time and time again, if you want to blame the person who started all this, its gul'dan. But in her history she helped several big hord members/hord with stuff. So if that faction attacks you, you may not feel betrayed. ( feel = emotion not a fact)

Emotions are still grounded in something. If Jaina feels betrayed because of Theramore her emotions are grounded in delusions.

as for the part But her point of view is hypocrite and false. Some of you....so you are all people now?

What?

At the end of cata, things where very cold ( war wise) then attack on thermaore happend and we went to pandaria. So 2 different things. Yes it might be a follow up from one thing. But if theramore did not happen. Alliance would not have sailed out and found pandaria and start a war there together with the hord.

The cold war stopped in WotLK. In case you missed it, both factions invaded the terriory of the other one at the start of Cata and there were no attempts at peace anywhere near the end of Cata.

Okay ill not call it trolling anymore. You paragraph sections of text and answer it. But you only put of parts of text. That is leaving out parts of information that can change a whole text into something else.

I left out your own opinions that you made very sure to specify are a separate thing from the earlier points. Under these circumstances omitting them changes nothing in regards to earlier parts. Besides, I only cut out things from the post in which you called me a troll. Not from the post I replied to when I wrote the post you called trolling. Your explanation makes no sense and in light of previous post in which you linked calling me a troll with me saying falsehoods it's clear you didn't call me that because I omitted a part of your post. So regardless of whether or not you call me a troll again, I still want you to point out those falsehoods in post #244.

Could you explain the attack on crossroads, cant find anything on it?? link please.

http://wow.gamepedia.com/Kilrok_Gorehammer text says Jaina's troops attacked Crossroads and captured Honor's Stand before Cataclysm. Garrosh attacked Ashenvale only after Cataclysm.

Night elfs where not planning it to use it as a weapon, Recently, the night elves of Darnassus found the Bell and moved it to their capital for study and safekeeping, only for it to be stolen by Horde agents and ending up in the hands of Garrosh Hellscream. The Bell was eventually shattered during a showdown between Garrosh and Anduin Wrynn.
So study means weapon...okay did not know that. See i knew you would do this. You keep calling me out on stuff. You could have called me out on the fact that the night elfs found it first and THEN garrosh stole. But you did not. i just knew it .

How is calling you out on what you actually said a problem? You said that the bell was stolen from pandarans, which you later changed to mean Pandaria. The ones who took it from Pandaria were the Night Elves. Which would make them the thieves under those parameters.

As for hord core territory:
Again chicken and egg situation, yes she was there, but who was there first, who went into others area's first?

In the context of war, Alliance. See two paragraphs above.

as for the timeline:
Timeline...read the wow timeline and then respond back, hord steal focus iris > theramor happend, the garrosh try's to kill vol'jin, the garrosh sabotage's talks with lor'thramar and then bell happend.

And where exactly have I stated otherwise? Do quote that.

Did i twist it:
Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
The Alliance was all over the Barrens.
They literally say it happened before the Cataclysm.

Yeah, Night Elves keeping things safe..
And if you'd actually read quest-text and such, you'd find that Jaina helped with the defenses.

Each time they did something, it's either a single guy going rogue or Jaina asking for it.

Not talking about me. Talking about what she knows.

Did I say this is the post you twisted? No.

That was not a argument. That was a response on my writing skills.

It doesn't make any sense as a response to your writing skills.

Context again .
You forget the fact you called me out on bad language skills, you ( the word you do not want to call you, even tough you do the dictionary version of the word) and after that i say the things is me being the bad person.

Twisting time again. Like with how you just tried to pretend you called me a troll only because I cropped your post when it was only the very same post in which you called me a troll that I cropped and you made it into an issue only later on (for obvious temporal reasons). I don't forget that I called you out on your language anything. I called you out on that after you completely misread my post and called me a troll because of that. A troll that, wait, what is it that you said then? Ah, right, a troll that can't read. Kinda ironic. Unless you can explain how my post #251 pointing out your illiteracy could have happened earlier than your post #247 in which you said most of the things I mentioned in regards to your glorious manners, your explanation is all kinds of idiotic.

A light, normal non attacking response. The i started a right/wrong with Kangodo and you jumped in after that. All i did was responsed how i felt about things. You keep nit picking, dissecting everything. Instead of just excepting that i have a other opinion then you.

And how exactly was my first response to you an attack or not a normal post? Replying to your points isn't nitpicking. If you can't handle people discussing lore with you after you make lore arguments, then leave this forum because it's obviously not for you. Likewise, replying to each paragraph separately isn't dissecting anything. It just makes posts clearer. You responded to all points with Kangodo just fine. How is it not dissecting then? And have whatever opinion you want. Don't barge in into lore forum spreading factually incorrect information (under your criteria, trolling) though. If you can't handle people pointing that out, then you should also leave because it's not a place for you.

Its not a eye for a eye situation. You talk about that the alliance did the same things hord. Thermaore did not start this. garrosh did. read the timeline, lore.

The timeline that says Jaina attacked Crossroads and Honor's Stand before Garrosh attacked Ashenvale does wonders for your argument

[stomination]

Though his response is biased, watching one side of the cinematic is EXACTLY what needs to be done to judge Jaina's stance. Jaina can only "watch" the Alliance side of the cinematic.

True. But Jaina and Genn had already decided that they cant trust them so their vision gets clouded no matter how much evidence you can show them.

[bufferunderrun]

just a quick question for those in beta is jaina making an appearance in a zone or the mage hall?

[steelballfc]

just a quick question for those in beta is jaina making an appearance in a zone or the mage hall?

no

/10char

[baskev]

Theramore was not neutral and not innocent end of story. Was it over the top to utterly level the place, yeah it was. But it doesn't change the fact that it made itself a legitimate military target.

did i say that?? nope. i talked about how it happend. the nuking off it.

- - - Updated - - -

You did it here, in post #247 (and that's ignoring your earlier post in which you called Kangodo a troll). These are all the replies to you in this thread prior to this: 1 2 3 4. Which of these four posts "called you out several times" before you wrote the first post I linked here?

Yes i did. But not after he start ( what i should not name) to me. And talked to me directly. Thats the point i made.

The post I quoted says nothing about anything not being clear enough. You said Theramore was first act of the war and told Kangodo to get his facts straight. If claiming that Theramore was the first act of war is getting facts straight then in the context of your post in question there's nothing unclear. I don't know what you think I linked, but it wasn't what you claim here.

Bla bla bla. Again it was the first act of war. After that they went from peace/cold war. To full blown war. pandaria happend because of it.
Not talking about it does not make it less true. And you said that i looked for excuses, and ways to go back on statements. And that i did not admint that i was wrong. While you linked text back to me. Where i admit i was wrong on some stuff?!?!?!


That subtopic was about Garrosh, pandarans, Night Elves, Divine Bell and Vol'jin. So no. Hell, at first during this specific subtopic you tried to claim it has nothing to do with Jaina.
BullSh*t. this subtopic, this rare piece of line etc etc. If we are talking about appels, and i say i like that fruit and that fruit etc. But you still can beat that taste of it. It revers to the original subject...appels, aka proudmoore.


[B]he led the offensive against Horde. She invades the most important Horde zones while Horde focused on outskirts. She planned to attack Orgrimmar already at the very start of the war. And where exactly have I changed subjects? Do point out that specifically. After all I did point out where you moved goalposts from Jaina not attacking the Horde. Because in post #244 I did address your specific posts point by point. I did the same in post #251 and post #306. And no, nuking military outpost filled only with military personnel is not mass murder. Don't use terms you don't understand.[B]

Again look at the timeline dude. Theramore ( a major city) was attacked before she even thaught of starting a war againts the hord....
And you are changing the focus. Each time you leave out bits of info or go and talk about something else. Like right now...You do not admit that looking at the timeline ( from our or her's pov) Happened first. Its a fact from every wiki :P
So hiroshima had military personal there so it was okay to nuke it you are saying???? And again, not the point, nuking vs saying hey we are going to attack you get your family's out of there are 2 very different things.

Yes, Orcs coming from another planet was very relevant to what you were responding to and wasn't an attempt at handwaving at all.
....sigh....


You didn't even mention Stormpikes, Alterac Valley or Frostwolves. Look at all that acknowledgment.
I think i did. If i did not my mistake, i can name other things that hord took and alliance took. again not the freaking point.


Theft requires intent. If the intent of Orcs was to steal lumber, as said even by the description of Warsong Gulch, i.e. the biggest clash about the issue prior to the Alliance-Horde war, then it's up to you to show that their intent was to also steal land. Not that land can actually be stolen under most legal systems, but whatever.

So again if your neighbor sets up a flower farm in your yard, and steals your flowers that is not invading your lawn?? Even if his intent is to borrow the flowers. They set up shop in ashenvale..


When was the last time that Night Elves delayed in aiding the Alliance?

Gun ho definition: gung ho
also mandarin g0nghé

derived from an asian word.

Orgin:Soldier Slang 1940's

to be gungho. meaning to be so psyched out for war. a mentality,thinking you are bullet-proof. your so hyped up and pumped so much. you can't wait to rush in and attack with your fellow soldiers.

who needs 2 learn english?


Yes, Divine Bell happened after Theramore. What of it? What also happened after Theramore was Jaina becoming the leader of the Kirin Tor and becoming neutral. If that was an attempt to explain how she didn't break neutrality because Theramore happened earlier, it failed. And the attack on Blue Dragonflight is relevant how?

My attempt + blue dragonflight explaining both points in 1 fell swoop: Hord stole the focusing iris from the blue dragonflight for the bomb that was used on theramore. And my point was. seeing what he ( garrosh before you start crying about not be clear engouh) with the focus iris it was even for a neutral faction a smart move to save guard it :P


Emotions are still grounded in something. If Jaina feels betrayed because of Theramore her emotions are grounded in delusion

Yes emotions are grouned in something. And if spent sometime explaining to you. What emotions she might have. And i did not say it was theramore alone. It was several factors.


Quote Originally Posted by baskev View Post
as for the part But her point of view is hypocrite and false. Some of you....so you are all people now?
What?

Something went wrong here. those where 2 subjects. The some of you part. was refering to you feeling that some of you only means you. or includes you.


The cold war stopped in WotLK. In case you missed it, both factions invaded the terriory of the other one at the start of Cata and there were no attempts at peace anywhere near the end of Cata.


Cold war was still cold in northrend. Wrathgate was a joined attack by both factions, a lt of windrunner rebelled....
Yes they invaded each other. But did not start a full scale war. Bit to busy with the gaint ass dragon in the sky??


I left out your own opinions that you made very sure to specify are a separate thing from the earlier points. Under these circumstances omitting them changes nothing in regards to earlier parts. Besides, I only cut out things from the post in which you called me a troll. Not from the post I replied to when I wrote the post you called trolling. Your explanation makes no sense and in light of previous post in which you linked calling me a troll with me saying falsehoods it's clear you didn't call me that because I omitted a part of your post. So regardless of whether or not you call me a troll again, I still want you to point out those falsehoods in post #244.

But leaving out subtext is changing the core of the text. And again you are being the definition of it. Not even reading up on the timeline but say your are still right for sake of argument.

http://wow.gamepedia.com/Kilrok_Gorehammer text says Jaina's troops attacked Crossroads and captured Honor's Stand before Cataclysm. Garrosh attacked Ashenvale only after Cataclysm.

okay admit i was wrong here. Did not find the quest anywhere.
But ashenvale has hord in there before cata. i know because i played there as a night elf.


How is calling you out on what you actually said a problem? You said that the bell was stolen from pandarans, which you later changed to mean Pandaria. The ones who took it from Pandaria were the Night Elves. Which would make them the thieves under those parameters.

I did not change that. I knew you where wrong from the start and wanted to see how long you would go on without checking up on what happen. ( very long i might add). There are some previous example's in this post you will fall for again. Ill see if you find them to.


In the context of war, Alliance. See two paragraphs above.
In context of your version of the war: the hord...since warcraft 1.
In context of mine version of the war ( after theramore)....Darnassus, theramore, etc etc etc etc

And where exactly have I stated otherwise? Do quote that.

you have stated time and time again. Hord did not attack first. See your own answer of the crossroads. Put that in the timeline and come back.


Did I say this is the post you twisted? No.
Nope.

It doesn't make any sense as a response to your writing skills.

It was but hey...you will gone on it so please do so.


Twisting time again. Like with how you just tried to pretend you called me a troll only because I cropped your post when it was only the very same post in which you called me a troll that I cropped and you made it into an issue only later on (for obvious temporal reasons). I don't forget that I called you out on your language anything. I called you out on that after you completely misread my post and called me a troll because of that. A troll that, wait, what is it that you said then? Ah, right, a troll that can't read. Kinda ironic. Unless you can explain how my post #251 pointing out your illiteracy could have happened earlier than your post #247 in which you said most of the things I mentioned in regards to your glorious manners, your explanation is all kinds of idiotic.

So i got no time for responding to everything. So i leave out stuff that weakens his points or mine...to "win" a argument. Yeah a ***** that can not read. Because i ask you things time and time again. For example: do you like appels, i do. And then you start a rant about bricks. So you are either a ***** or someone who can not read simple questions/remarks or both.

And how exactly was my first response to you an attack or not a normal post? Replying to your points isn't nitpicking. If you can't handle people discussing lore with you after you make lore arguments, then leave this forum because it's obviously not for you. Likewise, replying to each paragraph separately isn't dissecting anything. It just makes posts clearer. You responded to all points with Kangodo just fine. How is it not dissecting then? And have whatever opinion you want. Don't barge in into lore forum spreading factually incorrect information (under your criteria, trolling) though. If you can't handle people pointing that out, then you should also leave because it's not a place for you.


How: You took every line of my post and dissected them. You can say i disagree with that or that. But you went after everything. even things i proved that where wrong.
And i can handle people disagreeing with me. And leaving, my saying false things. I did not say false things. I did not lie. And i check my facts and you do not. And again its what i think she would think. So again this is not 100% fact because what she knows and we know are 2 different things ( several people said this allready to you). And this is not a lore question. Because lore is our version of the game's history. Not how proudmoore see's it.

The timeline that says Jaina attacked Crossroads and Honor's Stand before Garrosh attacked Ashenvale does wonders for your argument
Hord where in ashenvale before that.....garrosh did allot of things before that...
agian leaving out specifics for your benefit...gg

after this i am not going to respond to you full text. just small ones. Seeing as you only take time to talk about stuff you want. And not respond to my questions or sidestepping them.

[Combatbutler]

did i say that?? nope. i talked about how it happend. the nuking off it.

Yeah which is a result of Jaina's and Garrosh's actions you always need two to tangle.

[Mehrunes]

Yes i did. But not after he start ( what i should not name) to me. And talked to me directly. Thats the point i made.

There's absolutely nothing attacking you in the 4 replies to your earliest posts.

Bla bla bla. Again it was the first act of war. After that they went from peace/cold war. To full blown war. pandaria happend because of it.
Not talking about it does not make it less true. And you said that i looked for excuses, and ways to go back on statements. And that i did not admint that i was wrong. While you linked text back to me. Where i admit i was wrong on some stuff?!?!?!

Full blown war started in Cataclysm, there's no way going around it even if you choke on your spit for going bla bla bla too much.

BullSh*t. this subtopic, this rare piece of line etc etc. If we are talking about appels, and i say i like that fruit and that fruit etc. But you still can beat that taste of it. It revers to the original subject...appels, aka proudmoore.

The bullshit here is that you can't even keep track of your posts and when caught unaware you try to lie your way out.

Again look at the timeline dude. Theramore ( a major city) was attacked before she even thaught of starting a war againts the hord....

Jesus fucking Christ, I mentioned the time and places attacked by Jaina long before Theramore. And then you get triggered when you get called illiterate when you're proving once more that you are.

And you are changing the focus. Each time you leave out bits of info or go and talk about something else. Like right now...You do not admit that looking at the timeline ( from our or her's pov) Happened first. Its a fact from every wiki :P

There's nothing to admit, there is no special snowflake timeline of Jaina. She's part of the single timeline of WoW. And I changed jack shit, I made the same argument for four posts now.

So hiroshima had military personal there so it was okay to nuke it you are saying???? And again, not the point, nuking vs saying hey we are going to attack you get your family's out of there are 2 very different things.

Hiroshima had civilians, Theramore did not. Congrats on not having a clue.

....sigh....

Sigh all you want, won't magically make BUT TEH ORC ARE ALIENZ relevant to what you were replying to.

So again if your neighbor sets up a flower farm in your yard, and steals your flowers that is not invading your lawn?? Even if his intent is to borrow the flowers. They set up shop in ashenvale..

Intruding? Yes. Invading? No. Invasion is a military action.

Gun ho definition: gung ho
also mandarin g0nghé

derived from an asian word.

Orgin:Soldier Slang 1940's

to be gungho. meaning to be so psyched out for war. a mentality,thinking you are bullet-proof. your so hyped up and pumped so much. you can't wait to rush in and attack with your fellow soldiers.

who needs 2 learn english?

Still you. Them having or not having a certain mentality doesn't make them more neutral than other Alliance races and does not address the question when was the last time they delayed in aiding the Alliance, because, you know, the other part of your claim about Night Elves is that other Alliance races help humans ASAP and contrasted Night Elves with that. Which makes it clear as day this is what I addressed when I asked about delays. Again, English.

My attempt + blue dragonflight explaining both points in 1 fell swoop: Hord stole the focusing iris from the blue dragonflight for the bomb that was used on theramore. And my point was. seeing what he ( garrosh before you start crying about not be clear engouh) with the focus iris it was even for a neutral faction a smart move to save guard it :P

This makes no sense and I still see no relevance of mentioning it to the point you were replying to.

Cold war was still cold in northrend. Wrathgate was a joined attack by both factions, a lt of windrunner rebelled....
Yes they invaded each other. But did not start a full scale war. Bit to busy with the gaint ass dragon in the sky??

How is invasion not full scale war? Enlighten me. Because cold war requires a lack of military action. Invasion is the apotheosis of military action.

But leaving out subtext is changing the core of the text. And again you are being the definition of it. Not even reading up on the timeline but say your are still right for sake of argument.

Leaving out text you highlighted multiple times is separate point is not changing the other separate point at all. If you wanted them to not be separate points you could have had, I dunno, not separated them. And if anything meets the definition it's your constant but TEH TIMELINE that is substantiated with nothing and is factually wrong. Like in this post you tried to claim TEH TIMELINE is so that Jaina didn't even think of attacking the Horde before Theramore when we have Jaina's troops in Durotar preparing an attack against Orgrimmar itself, around two in-lore years before Theramore has happened. Your timeline is shit.

okay admit i was wrong here. Did not find the quest anywhere.
But ashenvale has hord in there before cata. i know because i played there as a night elf.

The invasion of Ashenvale and the following war happened after Cataclysm, in Wolfheart book. There was no war there prior to it.

I did not change that. I knew you where wrong from the start and wanted to see how long you would go on without checking up on what happen. ( very long i might add). There are some previous example's in this post you will fall for again. Ill see if you find them to.

I'm very well aware of what happened. Which is why I corrected your claim that the Divine Bell was stolen from the pandarans by someone trying to weaponize it. Trying to twist it into "lel, it was a trap point" or whatever this dogshit is is just pathetic.

In context of your version of the war: the hord...since warcraft 1.

Where exactly have I said so?

In context of mine version of the war ( after theramore)....Darnassus, theramore, etc etc etc etc

Your version of the war is simply wrong because you do not what cold war means and somehow missed 4.0.

you have stated time and time again. Hord did not attack first. See your own answer of the crossroads. Put that in the timeline and come back.

Do you not understand what "quote" means? Repeating your lie is not quoting.

So i got no time for responding to everything. So i leave out stuff that weakens his points or mine...to "win" a argument. Yeah a ***** that can not read. Because i ask you things time and time again. For example: do you like appels, i do. And then you start a rant about bricks. So you are either a ***** or someone who can not read simple questions/remarks or both.

How is this rant relevant to what you replied to? Oh, wait, it's yet another case of it being completely not relevant in any way, shape or form.

How: You took every line of my post and dissected them. You can say i disagree with that or that. But you went after everything. even things i proved that where wrong.

And yet you cry that I did not respond to points I found irrelevant to what I focused on because you announced it's a separate point altogether. Try to be consistent.

And i can handle people disagreeing with me. And leaving, my saying false things. I did not say false things. I did not lie. And i check my facts and you do not. And again its what i think she would think. So again this is not 100% fact because what she knows and we know are 2 different things ( several people said this allready to you). And this is not a lore question. Because lore is our version of the game's history. Not how proudmoore see's it.

I said multiple times I'm aware of you arguing about what you think she thinks. Read what you're replying to. The thing is, it doesn't change much, if anything. And in this thread no one else told me that, so don't conjure up people that don't exist to make your point stronger. And really? You repeatedly saying that Jaina did nothing against the Horde prior to Theramore is not a falsehood? Riveting tale.

Hord where in ashenvale before that.....garrosh did allot of things before that...

Garrosh did fuck all before that. He only made an ass out of himself at few meetings with the Alliance, before he became Warchief. His first act of war against the Alliance was Ashenvale. Which happened after Jaina attacked Crossroads and Honor's Stand. And Horde was in Ashenvale prior to that invasion, but they weren't invading at that point and there was no war because of it.

agian leaving out specifics for your benefit...gg

Totes.

after this i am not going to respond to you full text. just small ones. Seeing as you only take time to talk about stuff you want. And not respond to my questions or sidestepping them.

I addressed each and every point of yours from your previous post, including some not directed at me. Sometimes even going on sentence basis. In other words, you're full of shit.

[Volendrung]

I addressed each and every point of yours from your previous post, including some not directed at me. Sometimes even going on sentence basis. In other words, you're full of shit.

What an adventure.

[Deleted]

read Cycle of Hatred and the WoW comics. ...

Thanks for that information.

[Mehrunes]

Wait..
Let's establish a timeline so things are clear!

Am I correct in assuming:
1. Twilight Hammer attacks and skins Night Elves, Horde gets blamed.
2. Garrosh orders the invasion of Gilneas.
Shattering
3. Garrosh sends troops into Ashenvale (Wolfheart).
4. Varian and Genn stop him.
5. Second invasion of Ashenvale (this is the ingame questline).
16. Garrosh attacks Theramore.

That's what I got from several wowpedia's on Ashenvale, Garrosh, Timeline and Hamuul's.
We also know that Taurajo was destroyed BEFORE the Shattering.
That means it was before the 'first' invasion of Ashenvale.
That makes it seem like the Alliance-invasion of the Barrens was a response to the battle at Gilneas.

So in other words: Jaina broke a truce she had with the Horde because Sylvanas, ordered by Garrosh, attacked a Kingdom that wasn't even part of the Alliance.

Are you being sarcastic? Because I don't know anymore.

[baskev]

Yeah which is a result of Jaina's and Garrosh's actions you always need two to tangle.

Again was not talking about that. Was talking about the brute force. Insane weapon usage.

[bufferunderrun]

Wait..
Let's establish a timeline so things are clear!

Am I correct in assuming:
1. Twilight Hammer attacks and skins Night Elves, Horde gets blamed.
2. Garrosh orders the invasion of Gilneas.
Shattering
3. Garrosh sends troops into Ashenvale (Wolfheart).
4. Varian and Genn stop him.
5. Second invasion of Ashenvale (this is the ingame questline).
16. Garrosh attacks Theramore.

That's what I got from several wowpedia's on Ashenvale, Garrosh, Timeline and Hamuul's.
We also know that Taurajo was destroyed BEFORE the Shattering.
That means it was before the 'first' invasion of Ashenvale.
That makes it seem like the Alliance-invasion of the Barrens was a response to the battle at Gilneas.

So in other words: Jaina broke a truce she had with the Horde because Sylvanas, ordered by Garrosh, attacked a Kingdom that wasn't even part of the Alliance.

then warcrime happen, all the leaders got to witness the behind the scene thing we had witness, everyone got a better understanding and jaina at the end soften even to the point of shaking hand with thrall (that during it's audition was basically cleared of all the accusations thanks to tyrande) and exchanging messages with vol'jin.

[baskev]

- If you go after the person not the message you are attacking.
- There was no full blown lets get the fleets ready war in cata. That started at the end of cata as prelude to pandaria.
- If you can not keep track of what we are talking about. That is not my problem, its yours. Again sidestepping the point.
- Yeah you talked about them. And there are also towns they attacked. But in the end what set of the war. What made stormwind sent boats towards the hord ( that ended up at pandaria)....the bombing of theramore.
- again changing the focus. I am talking about the fact that you put events in the wrong order. witch i have said time and time agian. And again i am talking about what she knows. Not what we know.
- Theramor did have civilians.....Visit the inn
- Nope it will not make relevant that the orcs are aliens. But again you are sidestepping the point. We where talking about invading lands. And you said, hord never took lands. The fact that they are from a other planet and use land that was not theirs, is taking land.
- ...are you for real??? They have major defense their, and allot of soldiers. And on top of that, if you are at cold war and you go into a other ones country its invading.
- You are again making claims and changing stuff here. I said from the start ghung ho. You said that they would come to alliance help asap. That is not what it means. It means they are the most reserve of the alliance races. The ones who think the most about stuff before doing it. This proves again you are trying to sidestep a point. Just to win it.
- This makes no sense again...lol. I answered your question. with facts. how does it not make sense?
- Question: what hord land did the alliance invade in northred, where the hord lived way before the alliance.
- Its not my timeline. its wow timeline. And again chicken and egg situation. Hord also has military actions againts alliance. And agian we are talking why Proudmoore is mad. Because they forgave some of the stuff what the other did.
- Again there where hord there before cata. i did ffing quest there.
- Nope now you are lying. You said yourself, the elfs stole it from the hord. Witch is false and i got you on that. You said they where weaponizing it. The only one doing that was the hord. There is not a single line of dialogue suggesting otherwise.
- Where did you say that. You said they where in war before cata. If you call that war. Then they have been in cold war for a long time now. ( even tough the hord only came to live after warcraft 3)
- Cold war = war without battle's without large agression towards eachother. witch was cata. No one attacked anything major etc. To busy with deathwing.
- Yes and put all the other things the hord did back in there. Act of war vs agression. Talked about this to you time and time again. You yourself call intruding not invading. Meaning you give other definitions to what war and aggression is.
- It is relevant. Because if you can not "win" something you leave out bits and pieces. Changing to meaning of the text. You start talking about point A, and then go to point b. never to touch on point a again. Not even responding to it.
- Are you for real??? you ask why. I gave you a answer how you replied the first time ( by picking it apart). Only then did i do this to you. And asked you if you do pick it apart use every line. Not just what you want to show.
- read the post below yours sometimes. There have been several people calling you "out " on stuff. And i am not going to repeat myself to you again. If you do not want to read it fine.
- your line The invasion of Ashenvale and the following war happened after Cataclysm, in Wolfheart book. There was no war there prior to it. Invasion is enemy forces in your land. Or could russia just put tanks in alaska without making usa angry. Hell they can not even put missle systems in europea without pissing them off.
- You did not respond to all the stuff.

But i am going to say this 1 last time.

You and I differ on ms proudmoore's reason. We can both have our own feelings about it. Fact wise we can fight this out to the last breath. But you forget sometimes to put yourself in her shoe's. And that is what my response has been about the whole time. So after this i will only copy and paste a version of this last line. Seeing you want to keep this going until patch 20.0.
So to answer the post original question again. What is up with her attitude againts the hord:
Its not sudden, their is a whole history before that. What makes sense for her, in her pov. With things she knew about.

[Kallisto]

Again, you only have the big picture because of the meta knowledge available to you as a player. NPC characters are limited in the knowledge they have and if you are to argue against any of them, you really have to consider what is feasible for them to know of the events that had transpired. Genn and Jaina truly believe that working with the horde against the Legion will be counter-productive. They genuinely believe that Horde, given the chance, will betray them again.

It is not out of a petty desire that they work against the horde. They just can't trust them anymore given the previous events (again, from their viewpoint)

But how can anyone have that viewpoint is just crazy to begin with. There is no, 0 none reason that is logical for the horde to leave the alliance down there alone unless something major was fucked up.

This is not meta knowledge. This is putting 2+2 together and getting 4. Anyone with basic knowledge of the legion (Which every leader on Azeroth has), the threat they bring (Again which every leader in Azeroth has) and the need for them to be defeated (Again which every leader on Azeroth has). Then by knowing these and seeing one side fall back, the only logical reason was that said side is being over run. It takes more mental gymnastics to think the Horde is going "lol die alliance bye while we watch you all die and at the same time surely costing ourselves our existence too."

Also as for just not trusting the horde and not working against that. Well that argument goes out the window the moment Genn with the support of Rogers attacks the horde unprovoked in Stormheim.

[karumayu]

But how can anyone have that viewpoint is just crazy to begin with. There is no, 0 none reason that is logical for the horde to leave the alliance down there alone unless something major was fucked up.

This is not meta knowledge. This is putting 2+2 together and getting 4. Anyone with basic knowledge of the legion (Which every leader on Azeroth has), the threat they bring (Again which every leader in Azeroth has) and the need for them to be defeated (Again which every leader on Azeroth has). Then by knowing these and seeing one side fall back, the only logical reason was that said side is being over run. It takes more mental gymnastics to think the Horde is going "lol die alliance bye while we watch you all die and at the same time surely costing ourselves our existence too."

Also as for just not trusting the horde and not working against that. Well that argument goes out the window the moment Genn with the support of Rogers attacks the horde unprovoked in Stormheim.

In the opening quest of twilight Highlands, the horde under Garrosh attacked the Alliance forces headed there. The objective was to fight the twilight cultists there, but that did not stop him from attacking the Alliance. The Broken Front (not broken shore, the current one) in Lich King, the horde attacked the Alliance forces engaged with the scourge. Given these events it is not a crazy standpoint to believe that retreat of Horde is simply a tactic to let the Alliance lose forces again.

So for Jaina and Genn its simple as putting 2+2 together. They already had animosity towards the horde and recent events had led them yet again to believe the horde have betrayed the Alliance.

[Mehrunes]

- If you go after the person not the message you are attacking.

Point out specifically which part of these four replies was people going after you or better yet, stop bullshitting and own up to the fact that you started calling people stupid first.

- There was no full blown lets get the fleets ready war in cata. That started at the end of cata as prelude to pandaria.

Yes, no fleet attacked Thrall during Goblin starting zone. The 7th Legion didn't sail to Gilneas. Varian's forces didn't sail to Kalimdor in Wolfheart. Wait, no, they all did. The Forsaken also expanded a lot, kicking Alliance almost completely out of Lordaeron continent. Alliance invaded most important Horde zones in Kalimdor. Garrosh invaded Ashenvale multiple times.

But even if one accepted your claim, Theramore still wouldn't be the first act of war because even in that campaign the Horde still attacked Northwatch and Fort Triumph first.

- If you can not keep track of what we are talking about. That is not my problem, its yours. Again sidestepping the point.

It's not sidestepping the point, it's you being a fucking liar. "Her ffing perspective" is an idiotic reply to a post about Vol'jin, Garrosh, Night Elves and pandarans. Especially since it was followed by "I know it was a Mogu artifact" as if the earlier part was your "what I think Jaina thinks" when everyone involved in-lore knew that as well. Her effing perspective doesn't change the origin of the Divine Bell. And since you didn't even involve Jaina in that argument (actually, outright denied it being relevant to her) and only then changed the tune to "welp, she set traps" after being pointed out that you were wrong, it would be you doing the side stepping. And since this argument wasn't about Jaina at the start I continued it that way and focused on the gist of the matter. Focusing on Jaina there would be redundant since I made the same argument at other points.

- Yeah you talked about them. And there are also towns they attacked. But in the end what set of the war. What made stormwind sent boats towards the hord ( that ended up at pandaria)....the bombing of theramore.

Again ignoring 4.0 which happened long before Theramore, where Alliance sent boats to Kalimdor to attack the Horde because they invaded Ashenvale. What happened to BUT TEH TIMELINE?

- again changing the focus. I am talking about the fact that you put events in the wrong order. witch i have said time and time agian. And again i am talking about what she knows. Not what we know.

How many times do you need to have it repeated that I'm aware of you talking about what she knows before you get it? Contrary to you, I've learned how to read decades ago. And I'm not changing shit. I outright addressed it by saying your timeline is wrong and what Jaina thinks doesn't alter the timeline because she doesn't have power over time. The idea that things happened first from her POV alone is fucking retarded.

- Theramor did have civilians.....Visit the inn

The civilians left on ships before the mana bomb. You still don't have a clue.

- Nope it will not make relevant that the orcs are aliens. But again you are sidestepping the point. We where talking about invading lands. And you said, hord never took lands. The fact that they are from a other planet and use land that was not theirs, is taking land.

I haven't actually said that. Don't straw man me. And speaking of "changing focus", you said them taking land that belonged to no one was OK when you first brought up ALIENS nonsense. Which is most of their land. And irrelevant to the discussion of Horde and Alliance intruding into the territories of one another.

- ...are you for real??? They have major defense their, and allot of soldiers. And on top of that, if you are at cold war and you go into a other ones country its invading.

Considering that you don't even know what a cold war is, it's no wonder you don't know what an invasion is either. Invasion is an aggressive entry. With specific purposes like conquest, reconquest or forcing the government of the invaded territory to do certain things. None of the purposes were present prior to Garrosh and the only aggression in Ashenvale before Cata was Warsong Gulch which was entirely about lumber.

- You are again making claims and changing stuff here. I said from the start ghung ho. You said that they would come to alliance help asap. That is not what it means. It means they are the most reserve of the alliance races. The ones who think the most about stuff before doing it. This proves again you are trying to sidestep a point. Just to win it.

They are the most neutral because any other alliance race would join humans A.s.a.p. They are like the blood elfs, they are the least gun ho out of the bunch.

Uh huh. Totally. Oh, wait, it's you fucking lying again. Jesus fucking Christ, I just said which part it was an obvious reply to if one knows how to read and instead of admitting it you're going deeper into the bullshit zone and pretend you didn't even say it.

- This makes no sense again...lol. I answered your question. with facts. how does it not make sense?

The part where it has no relevance.

- Question: what hord land did the alliance invade in northred, where the hord lived way before the alliance.

Not in Northrend, in WotLK. Immediately after Wrathgate. You know, the capital city of the Forsaken.

- Its not my timeline. its wow timeline. And again chicken and egg situation. Hord also has military actions againts alliance. And agian we are talking why Proudmoore is mad. Because they forgave some of the stuff what the other did.

http://wow.gamepedia.com/Quest:The_W...tch_Aggression Northwatch troops, i.e. Jaina's troops planning to attack Orgrimmar in 4.0. Yes, "its wow timeline" that Jaina did nothing to the Horde prior to Theramore

- Again there where hord there before cata. i did ffing quest there.

I know there was Horde there before Cata. I said it multiple times. There was no war in Ashenvale before Cata. Which I also said numerous times.

- Nope now you are lying. You said yourself, the elfs stole it from the hord. Witch is false and i got you on that. You said they where weaponizing it. The only one doing that was the hord. There is not a single line of dialogue suggesting otherwise.

Quote that, because this is pure bullshit.

- Where did you say that. You said they where in war before cata. If you call that war. Then they have been in cold war for a long time now. ( even tough the hord only came to live after warcraft 3)

There was war in WotLK because Varian declared it in Undercity. Nothing about it is "The hord... since warcraft 1".

- Cold war = war without battle's without large agression towards eachother. witch was cata. No one attacked anything major etc. To busy with deathwing.

Cold war involves no military action, period. 4.0 saw military actions between the Horde and the Alliance left, right and center.

- Yes and put all the other things the hord did back in there. Act of war vs agression. Talked about this to you time and time again. You yourself call intruding not invading. Meaning you give other definitions to what war and aggression is.

I just gave the definition of invasion few paragraphs above in this post, so I hope you'll get educated for once before opening your mouth again and spewing more incorrect bullshit.

- It is relevant. Because if you can not "win" something you leave out bits and pieces. Changing to meaning of the text. You start talking about point A, and then go to point b. never to touch on point a again. Not even responding to it.

Yes, I left out so much from the previous post

- Are you for real??? you ask why. I gave you a answer how you replied the first time ( by picking it apart). Only then did i do this to you. And asked you if you do pick it apart use every line. Not just what you want to show.

You're all over the place. Somehow replying to your whole post is bad (even though that is what Kangodo was doing before I joined too, he just didn't edit his post the same way I did). Cutting out irrelevant parts is also bad, because who the fuck knows why. But no, I'll use whatever line I please as per forum rules. And for the last time because it's getting boring, if you divide your post in two, one part about what you think JAINA THINKS and the other about what you think, and I discuss only the first one, then the second one has no significance to my point whatsoever.

- read the post below yours sometimes. There have been several people calling you "out " on stuff. And i am not going to repeat myself to you again. If you do not want to read it fine.

I read everything, no one addressed anything about BUT IT'S WHAT JAINA THINKS at me. Probably because other people here can fucking read and know I'm aware of when the discussion is about what Jaina thinks. Not only because it was clear from the start with anyone using their eyes properly, but also because I outright said it multiple times because for some reason you can't get it.

- your line The invasion of Ashenvale and the following war happened after Cataclysm, in Wolfheart book. There was no war there prior to it. Invasion is enemy forces in your land. Or could russia just put tanks in alaska without making usa angry. Hell they can not even put missle systems in europea without pissing them off.

http://wow.gamepedia.com/Alliance-Horde_War Would you look at all that war because of vanilla Horde presence in Ashenvale.

- You did not respond to all the stuff.

Totally. I only quoted and addressed every single thing. You're still full of shit.

So to answer the post original question again. What is up with her attitude againts the hord:
Its not sudden, their is a whole history before that. What makes sense for her, in her pov. With things she knew about.

Now go through the thread once more and try to find me saying Jaina has no reasons to feel about the Horde the way she does. With quotes.

No, the big quotes of you guys are making things messy. Just look at post #328; I have no idea what this guy is talking about or to who.
I think this discussion could really use a timeline like that.

That's because they don't want to use proper quotes because that's dissecting or some shit. My posts are clear. I'm not sure what this has to do with your timeline though. Alliance retaliating against the Horde for invasion of Gilneas makes little sense, because, as you said, it was neutral faction. Especially since they only got themselves involved with that conflict after Genn helped Varian out in Ashenvale (which is why the Alliance was campaigning in Kalimdor) in an ongoing war against Garrosh and was allowed to join the Alliance. Did the Alliance even know about the invasion? You meet your first Night Elf in Gilneas after the Cataclysm already happened and it was one who stood guard there since the War of the Ancients.

[baskev]

No, the big quotes of you guys are making things messy. Just look at post #328; I have no idea what this guy is talking about or to who.
I think this discussion could really use a timeline like that.
And when he disagrees with a point, he can tell us which event he disagrees with and we can show the quest that tells him he is wrong.


That's because it is almost impossible to put ourselves in her shoes, she doesn't make any sense.
That is why I posted the timeline, to show how she broke the truce with the Horde BEFORE Garrosh invaded Ashenvale (twice).
She broke that truce because Horde attacked Gilneas and got in a fight with Stormwind troops that aided Gilneas.

and why i show him proof from the other side he ingore's it.

And its not impossible. Yes it is hard, and not well written. But it is doable. As for breaking the truce. Its been done by both sides. And like i side to mehrunes before. I am not talking about what we know about the history of wow. But by the books/ingamelore/etc what she knows. And how she might think.

[Volitar]

I am faction fluid and Jaina really needs to check xher privilege, she is really triggering me and giving me ptsd.