No flying in 7.0 confirmed

[SirCowdog]

One thing I noticed is that a lot of player tools lose significance and power if flying is an option. I say that because as a rogue, my grappling hook feels powerful when in the world specifically because of the pathing aspect of it. If I could fly, that wouldn't be anywhere near as significant or exciting.

This is actually a fair point, and goes towards what I've been arguing about for there to be a real decision between flying and ground utility. So I'll ask: Can you use grappling in areas where people can't normally fly, such as indoors?

[caervek]

If Legion repeats the fiasco like WoD (proportionally: I don´t think Legion has 5 million subs to lose), I don´t think we will need to "get used" to him for much longer.

IMO the lack of flight is going to hurt Blizzard more in Legion than it did in WoD (though not in pure subs as they have less to lose this time) because unlike WoD Legion actually has places to go and things to do so the problem is greatly amplified.

I.E in WoD you basically only left Garrison/Stormshield to raid, LFD or go to Tanaan (Tanaan which became infinity better once flight was added), in Legion however the are multiple reasons to leave your class hall/Dala and venture out into the world, and the inability to unlock flight is really starting to hurt this.

[SirCowdog]

Yup maybe. Theres always better options to integrate flight, im not against that at all if its done in a nice way (i am still against just tacking flight on)

But isn't that what Pathfinder is? Tacked flying on at the end, but with a wall of requirements to get it?

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Unfortunately this is the content that seems to be argued against by the 'pro flyer' extremists (some like it). This is gimmicky, and boring, and should be able to be bypassed.

That's because its implementation and execution are poor. From what I've seen, the grappling hooks in Stormheim are simply a single path to get to something(usually an AP chest). There's no thinking involved. "Oh, there's a hook! I'll just click the hooks in a line until I get loot."

What they should have done was make the hooks a puzzle. You only have 5 shots to figure out the correct path, and the moment you start the puzzle, flight is disabled. You only get the loot at the end if you figure out the puzzle, that way people couldn't just land at the end with their flying mount.

It's stuff like that which gives credence to the complaints about no-flying. They've taken away flight, but filled the world with a bunch of gimmicks and 'conveniences' which are simply not as satisfying as flying.

[wing5wong]

But isn't that what Pathfinder is? Tacked flying on at the end, but with a wall of requirements to get it?

Yup sure. But at least you played the game they envisioned. Its my opinion on it, and i know we disagree here. Both methods are not ideal, this is just the lesser of 2 evils in my eyes.

That's because its implementation and execution are poor. From what I've seen, the grappling hooks in Stormheim are simply a single path to get to something(usually an AP chest). There's no thinking involved. "Oh, there's a hook! I'll just click the hooks in a line until I get loot."

What they should have done was make the hooks a puzzle. You only have 5 shots to figure out the correct path, and the moment you start the puzzle, flight is disabled. You only get the loot at the end if you figure out the puzzle, that way people couldn't just land at the end with their flying mount.

It's stuff like that which gives credence to the complaints about no-flying. They've taken away flight, but filled the world with a bunch of gimmicks and 'conveniences' which are simply not as satisfying as flying.

Sure, i think there are a great deal of things that need to be expanded on with these type of things. Pylons in suramar, puzzle type minigames.
Obviously they dont replace flying, but i believe they make you more connected with the game world.

[nekobaka]

Watcher is a former moderator of elistist jerks and former member of the guild. Basically, Watcher is on the theory crafting and raiding spectrum and all the changes in WoD pointed to making raiders life easier. Legion is more of the same and world content and travel will continue to suffer as long as Watcher has draconian ideas of what WoW should be.

Something I had noticed by the second half of MoP was things GC was saying and the direction the team went. Just about everything GC said was a mistake and not to do was done in his departure going into WoD. Along with that was many things GC was blamed for doing including things that was not his departments control like dungeon and raid design which fell under Watcher. GC and Watcher butted heads a number of times during MoP. I find it ironic how much Watcher still gets praised by the very crowd that was thrown under the bus by his decisions.

[snackfeat]

Hahaha - was waiting for that. The majority of wow players don't visit any wow related sites. A poll IN game would show the true numbers. It's no coincidence that subs for WoD were less than half its peak. No flight, garrisons etc show that blizzard has no idea how to keep subs high anymore. Also - the size of the zone relative to others on the world map has nothing to do with the actual size of the zone when you're in it.

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You said you have lots to do. That's only because you can't fly in the tiny zones - it feels like there is more.

First of all, there is no proof that flying was a significant part of what caused the sub loss in WoD, but if legion does well then I guess it's clear that it was not.

I also know that an mmo-champ poll is not a completely accurate source, but it still does a better job than your made up claim with nothing to back it up.

[SirCowdog]

Yup sure. But at least you played the game they envisioned.

Their vision sucks for ~half the players and half their devs. That should be telling them something.

Obviously they dont replace flying, but i believe they make you more connected with the game world.

Filling the world with mini-games that aren't relevant to....well...anything about the story doesn't connect people with the game world. They're novelties. Side shows. Not to mention that 99% of the treasures and secrets hidden around the world to supposedly create this amazing 'feature' are useless 10 minutes after you reach level cap. When 800+ gear is available via crafting or dungeons, getting 775-795(if you get a lucky upgrade) is USELESS. 10-30AP when the next rank costs over 6000? Don't make me laugh!

Having people progress through an epic quest with multiple stages explaining why they can't fly, tying the struggles the defenders of the world face without air-superiority, and an expansion-long campaign to eventually regain the skies and take the fight to the legion on their space-ships? Now THAT would be something that would connect people to the game world.

Meanwhile: "Hey...use this grappling hook to get over a 10 foot tall wall to attack some vikings who are minding their own business."


Yeah....seriously. WTF.

[Deleted]

You explained all perfectly and that whistle is the biggest addition to traveling in game on an early time of an expansion and people still complaining about flight. They should have been used to that already, it's not the first time system works like that and I wish they never release flying for legion but they'll in a future patch, yea..

Also climbing/grapples in Stormheim, no one would do that and it won't exist if we were able to just fly at the start so I like it a lot too. It even has world quests for it. I just meet a short one today, something about climbing & destroying ravens' nests on high spots lol.

Could exist perfectly with enabled flying, though. Swarms of ravens constantly kick you off your flying mount if you try to access the nests by air. If you use the hooks, you can get "under their radar" and do the quest. Simple as that.

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Their vision sucks for ~half the players and half their devs. That should be telling them something.





Filling the world with mini-games that aren't relevant to....well...anything about the story doesn't connect people with the game world. They're novelties. Side shows. Not to mention that 99% of the treasures and secrets hidden around the world to supposedly create this amazing 'feature' are useless 10 minutes after you reach level cap. When 800+ gear is available via crafting or dungeons, getting 775-795(if you get a lucky upgrade) is USELESS. 10-30AP when the next rank costs over 6000? Don't make me laugh!

Having people progress through an epic quest with multiple stages explaining why they can't fly, tying the struggles the defenders of the world face without air-superiority, and an expansion-long campaign to eventually regain the skies and take the fight to the legion on their space-ships? Now THAT would be something that would connect people to the game world.

Meanwhile: "Hey...use this grappling hook to get over a 10 foot tall wall to attack some vikings who are minding their own business."


Yeah....seriously. WTF.

I'm with you in this. If they delay flying and gate it with such an extensive achievement - then they could at least present it in a manner which fits an RPG game. By now, I am finished with all rares in Azsuna, have completed the pathfinder and explorer achievements there and even got the treasure achievement. The only things left in this zone are world quests and reputation grinds. In this zone and at this stage of progress, unlocking flying would be perfectly fine, because there is not much left to do. But I will have to wait until an uncertain point in the future, why?

While the whistle helps a lot getting out of places where you have finished the job and don't have the next objective in a reasonable distance, it is just not the same as using your own mount to fly from objective 1 to objective 2. I don't enjoy riding at all, even though I can pose with my rare ground mounts. Staying on the ground in Suaramar does make sense so you have to dodge the patrols who can spoil your camouflage, but this could have been achieved just by stating that there is a no-fly buff while under the energy shield in Suaramar (which conveniently would fit the overall oppression theme in this zone). General no-flying is a lazy solution to the problem that some gameplay options can be buypassed with a flying mount.

Besides that - I kill most small group objective mobs on my own with my frost mage, if I don't screw up with the pull, can use all of my cooldowns and am able to kite the mob if he is still alive after they are used. It's now some kind of a routine for me. Now that I know how to handle the patrouls in Suramar, the danger feeling is gone and is replaced by annoyment. And while I can get around fine with my mage (having feather fall helped a lot getting the kite, for example, and I still use it most of the time instead of the kite, or the new Aviana toy which I got on the first try), and I will probably have no problems with questing on my rogue, warlock, or hunter (vanish and tank pets), I dread the leveling of other classes without flying. And I probably will postpone leveling my druid for a long while, because my beloved flying form is useless.

[wing5wong]

Their vision sucks for ~half the players and half their devs. That should be telling them something.

We dont really have those numbers though. personally i dont think 50% of the devs want you to just fly anywhere and everywhere to simply decrease time taken. There are many ways to achieve that.

Filling the world with mini-games that aren't relevant to....well...anything about the story doesn't connect people with the game world. They're novelties. Side shows. Not to mention that 99% of the treasures and secrets hidden around the world to supposedly create this amazing 'feature' are useless 10 minutes after you reach level cap. When 800+ gear is available via crafting or dungeons, getting 775-795(if you get a lucky upgrade) is USELESS. 10-30AP when the next rank costs over 6000? Don't make me laugh!

hmm, i dont see the treasures as being a big part of it really, they're a nice addition for early AP boost. Would probably be a lot better if you could start artifcat knowledge a lot earlier on so they are actually boosted.
World quests should, IMO, be entertaining. theres already enough 'hardcore' stuff to dop in terms of raids, mythic+ and PvP that its nice to just go around and be a bit more chilled out.

Having people progress through an epic quest with multiple stages explaining why they can't fly, tying the struggles the defenders of the world face without air-superiority, and an expansion-long campaign to eventually regain the skies and take the fight to the legion on their space-ships? Now THAT would be something that would connect people to the game world.

Yea sure, it would.

Could exist perfectly with enabled flying, though. Swarms of ravens constantly kick you off your flying mount if you try to access the nests by air. If you use the hooks, you can get "under their radar" and do the quest. Simple as that.

One of many workable ideas

[Mafic]

One thing I noticed is that a lot of player tools lose significance and power if flying is an option. I say that because as a rogue, my grappling hook feels powerful when in the world specifically because of the pathing aspect of it. If I could fly, that wouldn't be anywhere near as significant or exciting.

That makes zero sense.

Grappling Hook powerful? It is heroic leap reskinned.

[Raiju]

That makes zero sense.

Grappling Hook powerful? It is heroic leap reskinned.

I didn't realize heroic leap had 100 yards range and ignored line of sight.

[Eurhetemec]

That makes zero sense.

Grappling Hook powerful? It is heroic leap reskinned.

It really, really, really isn't. Ask anyone who has had both and used them significantly. Warriors are literally begging Blizzard to make Heroic Leap work like Grappling Hook.

[Mafic]

Something I had noticed by the second half of MoP was things GC was saying and the direction the team went. Just about everything GC said was a mistake and not to do was done in his departure going into WoD. Along with that was many things GC was blamed for doing including things that was not his departments control like dungeon and raid design which fell under Watcher. GC and Watcher butted heads a number of times during MoP. I find it ironic how much Watcher still gets praised by the very crowd that was thrown under the bus by his decisions.

This is a flight thread so I will keep it brief. Watcher does a good job of theorycrafting and raid design because that is his background as a former player. But beyond that he is on a massive learning curve in trying to create a complete game that appeals to vast swathes of players.

Flying is one of those pieces of the puzzles they can't grasp because it isn't focused in instance progression (eg heroics, mythics, LFR, mythic raiding). So, it seems it is going to take a lot of circling of the wagons by the community to resolve the issue of flying like what happened in WoD.

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It really, really, really isn't. Ask anyone who has had both and used them significantly. Warriors are literally begging Blizzard to make Heroic Leap work like Grappling Hook.

I have used both. My main is a Rogue.

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I didn't realize heroic leap had 100 yards range and ignored line of sight.

Grappling Hook has 100 yard range?

Unless they suddenly changed it still has a 40 yard range.

[Eurhetemec]

I have used both. My main is a Rogue.

Then you have no excuse for saying they're the same or not being aware of how awesome Grappling Hook is and how it can get you into a thousand places that Heroic Leap could never dream of. You can actually hook UP things for god's sake, unlike "PATH NOT FOUND PATH NOT FOUND PATH NOT FOUND PATH NOT FOUND" with Heroic Leap (or Infernal Strike, for that matter).

Unless your excuse is you don't play Warriors and don't know how shit Heroic Leap is I guess that'd be an excuse. Sorta.

[Mafic]

Could exist perfectly with enabled flying, though. Swarms of ravens constantly kick you off your flying mount if you try to access the nests by air. If you use the hooks, you can get "under their radar" and do the quest. Simple as that.

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I'm with you in this. If they delay flying and gate it with such an extensive achievement - then they could at least present it in a manner which fits an RPG game. By now, I am finished with all rares in Azsuna, have completed the pathfinder and explorer achievements there and even got the treasure achievement. The only things left in this zone are world quests and reputation grinds. In this zone and at this stage of progress, unlocking flying would be perfectly fine, because there is not much left to do. But I will have to wait until an uncertain point in the future, why?

While the whistle helps a lot getting out of places where you have finished the job and don't have the next objective in a reasonable distance, it is just not the same as using your own mount to fly from objective 1 to objective 2. I don't enjoy riding at all, even though I can pose with my rare ground mounts. Staying on the ground in Suaramar does make sense so you have to dodge the patrols who can spoil your camouflage, but this could have been achieved just by stating that there is a no-fly buff while under the energy shield in Suaramar (which conveniently would fit the overall oppression theme in this zone). General no-flying is a lazy solution to the problem that some gameplay options can be buypassed with a flying mount.

Besides that - I kill most small group objective mobs on my own with my frost mage, if I don't screw up with the pull, can use all of my cooldowns and am able to kite the mob if he is still alive after they are used. It's now some kind of a routine for me. Now that I know how to handle the patrouls in Suramar, the danger feeling is gone and is replaced by annoyment. And while I can get around fine with my mage (having feather fall helped a lot getting the kite, for example, and I still use it most of the time instead of the kite, or the new Aviana toy which I got on the first try), and I will probably have no problems with questing on my rogue, warlock, or hunter (vanish and tank pets), I dread the leveling of other classes without flying. And I probably will postpone leveling my druid for a long while, because my beloved flying form is useless.

The rep grinds is going to be off putting for most players because it requires you don't miss emissary quests or else you are behind the 8 ball and have to grind it out even more as time passe son. Even for hardcore players they will find it a tough uphill climb to finish patchfinder achieve.

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Then you have no excuse for saying they're the same or not being aware of how awesome Grappling Hook is and how it can get you into a thousand places that Heroic Leap could never dream of. You can actually hook UP things for god's sake, unlike "PATH NOT FOUND PATH NOT FOUND PATH NOT FOUND PATH NOT FOUND" with Heroic Leap (or Infernal Strike, for that matter).

Unless your excuse is you don't play Warriors and don't know how shit Heroic Leap is I guess that'd be an excuse. Sorta.

Grappling Hook should be removed and Shadow Step given to Outlaw. Grappling Hook is boring and garbage as is the entire "mobility tier" for Outlaw.

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Hahaha - was waiting for that. The majority of wow players don't visit any wow related sites. A poll IN game would show the true numbers. It's no coincidence that subs for WoD were less than half its peak. No flight, garrisons etc show that blizzard has no idea how to keep subs high anymore. Also - the size of the zone relative to others on the world map has nothing to do with the actual size of the zone when you're in it.

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You said you have lots to do. That's only because you can't fly in the tiny zones - it feels like there is more.

The zones are tiny, because they are designed this way for Blizzard to focus on instanced content moving forward. Had they made larger zones they could argue this is for future use (eg Tanaan). But they no longer have that mulligan and now must resort to saying that there will be future content that requires more ground and pound gameplay.

[Eurhetemec]

Grappling Hook should be removed and Shadow Step given to Outlaw. Grappling Hook is boring and garbage as is the entire "mobility tier" for Outlaw.

Wow. Okay, yeah that's an opinion and I think that's all we can really say about that beyond that anyone who thinks Grappling Hook is "boring" should take a trip to Youtube.

[Connll]

I was referring more to how the decision was made, internally, at Blizzard. I highly suspect that no-flying was either Hazzicostas' or Afriasabi's wet dream, pitched to the team as a way to improve the game.

OK, Got it.

But anyway, the point stands. WoD proved that lack of Flight did NOT empirove the game - quite the contrary in fact - and yet they still doing their "best" to keep the game without flight. At the present moment, there is no rational motive that could explain or justify this attitude. It has hurt the game in WoD and is hurting the game in Legion.

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First of all, there is no proof that flying was a significant part of what caused the sub loss in WoD

Yeah, no proof.

Its not like Blizzards experienced such enormous player pushback that they decided to change course (something that happeened only 3-4 times in their entire history) in about 2 weeks.

Nope.

[Sarevokcz]

well tbh, while I am definitely pro-flight, the flightmasters whistle, the extra dalaran HS and wide taxi net pretty much takes care of most of my issues with no flight, I think from Dalaran, you can be anywhere around the map in like 4 minutes tops, so I dont mind not hving flying, atleast for now

[thilicen]

That makes zero sense.

Grappling Hook powerful? It is heroic leap reskinned.

So which of the following have you never tried before: A) Heroic Leap? or B) Grappling Hook?

[Zalamander]

Yeah, no proof.

Its not like Blizzards experienced such enormous player pushback that they decided to change course (something that happeened only 3-4 times in their entire history) in about 2 weeks.

Nope.

There is a fun fact as well. Do you remember that blizzard had a planned Q&A stream a week after the "No fly ever" statement got out that later got canceled and delayed for another week. They blamed it on that it was canceled to make room for another activity e-sport panel or something that was double booked same evening.
There is ACTUAL proof that the real reason this Q&A got canceled and delayed was the no fly backlash forcing Blizzard to do the 180 and just a few days later before the new date of the Q&A, announced that flying will be back.

Lore admitted on twitter after the "there will be flight after all" announcement. https://twitter.com/CM_Lore/status/608683181353631744