[Balance] Legion Discussion

[Tyze]

Smooth, basically hit the buttonns that light up

Could Boomkin be for someone who dont like dots? xD
I just like Boomkin, the spells and everything, but I do not enjoy spamming dots

[Frostyfire14]

Are we underestimating echoing stars?

[joltcola1234]

Nature's Balance is better for single target; that is, most dungeon bosses.

Moonkin is treash in aoe trash pulls except every 1.3 minutes when FoE is up. So you're choosing a talent to be less crap at aoe but you're still on average quite crap, when you could choose a talent to let you shine on bosses where your advantages are better spent.

I see what you are saying here, FoE is definitely easy to mess up. However, what I mentioned was the damage potential of FoE being higher then NB.

Also, will NB carry over as being viable as a raid talent once those unlock? I'm not familiar with the raid mechanics that are upcoming so I'm wondering if FoE makes sense to become familiar with now.

One of the problems with FoE is that you aren't just relying on your own play to maximize its use it requires coordination mainly with your tank as well.

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Occam's razor.

Unless you're suggesting Blizzard is incapable of recognizing 6+ specs are overtuned - which would take massive incompetence on their part - the simplest answer is always that the one is the outlier, and not the many.

It's probable that 2-3 specs on the higher end of things are slightly overtuned, but to suggest the state of Balance is the true median and everything performing better than Balance is overtuned is ridiculous.

Lol, this guy

[Alame]

Are we underestimating echoing stars?

It is - for all intents & purpsoes - a 20% damage boost to the direct damage portion of Starfall.

Considering Starfall's direct damage is quite weak, and the true strength is in the DoT empowerments, I doubt we're underestimating it.

If it added two extra waves to the duration (increasing it by 10s) it would be much stronger as that would also give you an extra empowered DoT tick on the tail end for the same AsP cost.

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Lol, this guy

Wonderful addition to the discussion. Truly, we are lucky to have you participating.

[Crewsix]

I see what you are saying here, FoE is definitely easy to mess up. However, what I mentioned was the damage potential of FoE being higher then NB.

Also, will NB carry over as being viable as a raid talent once those unlock? I'm not familiar with the raid mechanics that are upcoming so I'm wondering if FoE makes sense to become familiar with now.

One of the problems with FoE is that you aren't just relying on your own play to maximize its use it requires coordination mainly with your tank as well.

There are 2 main problems with FoE. It doesn't scale well so it will get worse as you get more gear. The second is its is a dps loss single target even if played perfectly. 2+ targets that is a different story but requires high level of play, coordination with raid mechanics and tanks. There are probably some fights I'll take it and I find it to be our most fun talent. From a numbers standpoint however most fights NB is a no brainer.

[Frostyfire14]

My number one pet peeve with class design and gameplay is designing a talent or mechanic for a claas that involves coordination with another player.

They took away the mage crystal from WoD because it was an awful class mechanic that relied heavily on mob placement by the tank.

Then they gave us FoE.

[huth]

There are 2 main problems with FoE. It doesn't scale well so it will get worse as you get more gear. The second is its is a dps loss single target even if played perfectly. 2+ targets that is a different story but requires high level of play, coordination with raid mechanics and tanks. There are probably some fights I'll take it and I find it to be our most fun talent. From a numbers standpoint however most fights NB is a no brainer.

Don't forget that it is hard to coordinate because you're the only one in your group that can see the darn thing.

[Arborus]

People keep saying you need all of this coordination for FoE, but I still think you guys must be playing with tanks that constantly dance around and move mobs, because it really hasn't been a problem for me.

[Crewsix]

I've also noticed that if I die while casting FoE the animation stays up until I res...any chance that it is actually still casting or just animation?

[DevilsAdvocate]

A few notes about current class balance.

1) Discussion is focused too heavily on mythic dungeons (because that's all we have to judge for end-game content at the moment). Parses are being completely dominated by burst AOE at which Demon Hunters, WW Monks, and Rogues dominate. Classes that require setup time like Warlocks are following behind. With mythic+ and raiding, that should fall by the wayside. It's just irritating because 90% of the playerbase are mouthbreathers who can't see farther than their own experiences and the last fight meter and will be biased against classes with poor burst.

2) Melee seems over-powered at the moment. I think it is blizzard's intention that they have better DPS because melee's inherent disadvantage with movement in certain fights but it's a bit much at the moment. I'm assuming when things settle Melee should have about a 20% advantage to start and then that will reduce with scaling.

3) I'm pretty pissed with class balancing. It seems badly tuned as it's ever been with pure damage classes like Warlocks being far behind and perennial underperformers like elemental shamans getting the shaft. Sure hybrids have a tax but a pure dps class like warlocks? I think they should just give up the ghost and use the escher stairwell method of "balance" so that the player base can be happy. Let elemental shamans have one expansion where they are powerful again (Mists anyone?). It seems that blizzard can't get class balance down at all to a good level in PvE which should be so much easier now that PvP talents have been separated.

With balance the way it is, people are going to be so pissed when the class and spec they invested their artifact power into doesn't get any invites. Whoops!

[Madus]

People keep saying you need all of this coordination for FoE, but I still think you guys must be playing with tanks that constantly dance around and move mobs, because it really hasn't been a problem for me.

Its not only about tanks, it need like whole talent tree to work, it need too much setup for something what DH or Monk do with 2 abilities, and most important its dead for pvp.

[Arborus]

Its not only about tanks, it need like whole talent tree to work, it need too much setup for something what DH or Monk do with 2 abilities, and most important its dead for pvp.

I don't pvp, but I feel like there are likely plenty of dead talents across many classes in pvp.

As for needing other talents, yes, there is synergy there that makes it much better than taking it without the supporting talents. Other classes have similar build situations, where taking one talent means they're likely to take others because they work well together.

DH and WW are pretty extreme outliers for burst AoE, and their ability to do one or two button burst AoE is part of their kit. Some classes need more buttons, more ramp up, etc. It's part of the variety between classes.

Is it fun to see DH or WW do millions of burst DPS on trash with one button? Not really, but that's a numbers tuning issue.

The last thing I would want is for FoE to become Eye Beam or some similar press-one-button-to-do-insane-aoe ability.

[Frostyfire14]

People keep saying you need all of this coordination for FoE, but I still think you guys must be playing with tanks that constantly dance around and move mobs, because it really hasn't been a problem for me.

You unknowingly identified the problem with FoE. The fact that there are different play styles of tanks that directly affect this talent is absurd.

[Arborus]

You unknowingly identified the problem with FoE. The fact that there are different play styles of tanks that directly affect this talent is absurd.

This is the case for talents in other classes too. Hell, this is the case for damn near every talent in the game. Different playstyles within a group affects the value of different talents. Who knew?

[Frostyfire14]

This is the case for talents in other classes too. Hell, this is the case for damn near every talent in the game. Different playstyles within a group affects the value of different talents. Who knew?

Name one that is to the same degree as FoE?

[Arborus]

Name one that is to the same degree as FoE?

Shadow Crash

Defile

Cataclysm

Liquid Magma Totem

Ravager

You can't even move these like you can with FoE.

[Tyze]

Might be a silly question, but what's more important, to use empowerments and not during Starsurge above 3 stacks or not wasting stack on moonmoon? Because there comes a scenario where I have 3 stacks but alot of astral power to use before.

And are you standing one 2 or 1 charge of moonmoon?

[Cyous]

Occam's razor.

Unless you're suggesting Blizzard is incapable of recognizing 6+ specs are overtuned - which would take massive incompetence on their part - the simplest answer is always that the one is the outlier, and not the many.

It's probable that 2-3 specs on the higher end of things are slightly overtuned, but to suggest the state of Balance is the true median and everything performing better than Balance is overtuned is ridiculous.

The simplest answer would imply nerfing 4-6 specs instead of buffing 18 others. Plus, we're middle of the pack in almost everything, so yes, you're the measuring stick. Plus, we aren't subject to major RNG swings, so our damage is based on player skill and environment...which supports us as the measuring stick.

[Alame]

The simplest answer would imply nerfing 4-6 specs instead of buffing 18 others.

That is the simplest solution, not identification of the problem. The two are not the same thing. Occam's Razor is about formulating hypothesis not designing solutions.

Plus, we're middle of the pack in almost everything, so yes, you're the measuring stick.

This is:
1. Subjective
2. Assuming "middle of the pack" is where Blizzard wants it to be

Plus, we aren't subject to major RNG swings, so our damage is based on player skill and environment...which supports us as the measuring stick.

Most classes aren't subject to major RNG swings? Outlaw Rogues, Elemental Shamans, and Ret Paladins are the only classes that come to mind with major RNG swings. RNG in other classes amounts to less than ~5% variance.

On top of that, low variance doesn't make you the "measuring stick". You can have low variance and be an extreme outlier on either end of the spectrum. Variance in samples and deviation from the median are not the same thing, and not correlated at all.

You don't need to buff 18 other specs. Just because Boomkins aren't the median doesn't mean that Fire mages are. You can't even tell as a player where the ideal median is, because we don't know Blizzard's ideal TTD with Legion. It could be Fire Mages are where Blizzard wants it, or it could be Frost DKs, or anywhere in between. Everything we as players discuss regarding class balance is done in relativity to other classes, and in that regard Balance could use some love.

[huth]

2. Assuming "middle of the pack" is where Blizzard wants it to be

That's not an assumption. They flat-out told us.