Mythic+ shouldn't have time limits

[callipygoustp]

This is not inherent to the model in any form.
The game is not saying that classes or specs should be excluded if they don't meet some arbitrary number.

It is players dictating that only.
You choose not to see that.

Where is the game dictating that class choice or spec choice for you.
It is not.

It is players deciding that because some spec is superior at AoE, that an AoE friendly Mythic Plus absolutely requires that spec.

Yes, the players decide what classes and specs they include ... based on the game design. The game design provides a puzzle. Players figure out the best way of over coming the puzzle. The result: some classes and specs are excluded. Causation pure and simple.

You realize you have argued for my point?

[ComputerNerd]

Yes, the players decide what classes and specs they include ... based on the game design. The game design provides a puzzle. Players figure out the best way of over coming the puzzle. The result: some classes and specs are excluded. Causation pure and simple.

You realize you have argued for my point?

No, the game is not dictating that a class providing a fraction of the AoE is simply not good enough.
It is players who decide that the ONLY option is the strongest.

I did no such thing.

I ask you where in game is Mythic plus forcibly excluding classes or specs.
It is not.

I am not arguing there are less effective options.
I am stating as a fact that it is players who dictated that sub-optimal or less efficient absolutely requires exclusion.
It does not.

[callipygoustp]

Lol @ the people that think a time limit makes the content challenging. It doesn't. It just means you stack the few lucky specs with burst AoE and strong single target and it's gg.

If it wasn't challenging everyone would be doing it. Everyone is not.

[Deleted]

You still get the loot when you do not finish it in time. It is just the keystone that is "lost" then.

All fun and games imo - and as others stated you NEED some limitation in there.

[callipygoustp]

No, the game is not dictating that a class providing a fraction of the AoE is simply not good enough.
It is players who decide that the ONLY option is the strongest.

At this point I can just copy and paste my previous posts.

Again, the design results in there being an optimal composition for over coming a challenge. Are players not supposed to seek out the best methods for over coming a challenge?

As I said early, this is the nature of the a multi class game. In all challenges some classes/specs are going to be inherently sub-optimal.

I did no such thing.

Yes, you have. But now we're sounding like :

I ask you where in game is Mythic plus forcibly excluding classes or specs.

I'm discussing design's affect on character decisions. Not looking to get off on a tangent. Maybe someone else will answer this for you.

[virox]

Yeah, we definitely don't want to involve strategic elements like crowed control ever again. That would be stupid. Oh, wait, what this game has turned into has created an audience that probably can't tell that's sarcasm.

[barrsftw]

I strongly disagree. The only reason I enjoy them is because they are timed. If you don't want timed content do literally anything else in the entire game and you should find it more enjoyable.

[Wondercrab]

I agree. I think it's cool to have timed speedrun content like this in the game, but making it the mandatory progression path for people running dungeons kind of sucks. Not everyone enjoys speedruns. There's definitely a better solution that could be found.

[ComputerNerd]

At this point I can just copy and paste my previous posts.

Go ahead and repeat the same rubbish again if you want, but it doesn't change anything.
Nowhere does less efficient or less optimal demand exclusion.
I asked you to state where that is the case.
You cannot, because it does not exist.

If something is so inherent to not only this one game, but the genre then show me where it exists.

Your game design argument is about something entirely different.

If your statement was right, then you would not be capable of taking a sub-optimal class or spec, because there would be no point.
The fact you can proves there is no inherent mechanic or design which is forcibly excluding specs or classes from content simply based on their performance compared to another.
Players only decide that.

[FobManX]

That's essentially how the system is currently. If you beat the time limit, you get extra loot by upgrading your keystone and qualifying for a higher difficulty. If you can't beat the next timer, you can still go thru and complete the mythic+ slowly and still get loot, just not an upgraded keystone.

Yep, and thats why I'm in favor of it. Normally I don't like time limits but I think Blizz hit the nail on the head with this system. You still get something for completing the dungeon but if you're skilled and efficient enough to do it quickly you get bonuses.

[Yassy]

You are purely talking about trash and CC. At the bosses they could make the fights hard and interesting and you can't cc there. Basicly like mythic raids are.

Blizzard themselves said mythic+ is an alternative path to gearing up but they designed it in such a way its just rush rush and not purely hard (like mythic raids)

Dungeons have never been about the boss fights though. They've always been about clearing the entire dungeon. By being locked into a 5 man composition, the amount of mechanics are significantly reduced that can even be on a boss.

Some of the mechanics currently have a realistic cap on how high they can go before it makes the dungeon unclearable. What happens when any of the dog mobs in any of the dungeons use their "jump on random target" ability starts hitting for 3 million and they have 500% health? The content isn't "hard", its unclearable. Original recipe C'thun wasn't "Hard", it was unkillable.

Current Mythic+ dungeons aren't about rushing through them. They're about setting a steady pace, sticking to that steady pace, dying as little as possible, and dealing with the keystone modifiers appropriately. Remove the time limit(which serves only to reward bonus loot and the next level of your keystone), and the content becomes trivial. I don't want to be in a dungeon for 2 hours. Ever. I don't want to spend 15 minutes per trash pack. Trash is made entertaining by your efficiency at clearing it. Not by mobs hitting for 500% and one shotting people.

[Dracodraco]

Yeah, we definitely don't want to involve strategic elements like crowed control ever again. That would be stupid. Oh, wait, what this game has turned into has created an audience that probably can't tell that's sarcasm.

Considering tons of specs lost their generic "CC ability" (EG - hunters no longer have their traps, druids no longer have their cyclone and such), it really wouldn't work any different than it does now - you would just, as people already have pointed out, switch towards specs with higher singletarget burst (to get rid of one dangerous enemy at a time) rather than AOE (to speed stuff up).
If people don't think we're making constant use of AOE stuns (Mind bomb, binding arrow and shockwave in my mythic+ group consisting of warr tank, disc priest, shadow priest, mage, hunter) or coordinating interrupts/knocks (bursting shot, priest AOE knockback), or sheeping dangerous mobs when doing high dungeons, you've really got no clue. Sheeping a high-damage intake mob on a pull with multiple is EXTREMELY good, and considering a disc adds another 150K singletarget DPS, it's well worth losing out on the cleave on a single target to make sure he's able to comfortably heal the group while providing DPS. A great example is the last two trash pulls in Nelts lair - the trapper+scorpion packs. Both hurt like a motherfucker, but with a well placed sheep you can make it a lot smoother. Heck, there's even fringe shit like coordinating mass dispels in Vault of the Wardens on the second boss to never get any abilities locked out when you've got 2x priests.

Maybe the issue is that you're not doing high enough mythics if you're not utilising everything your class has to offer yet? At +7-8 when you get two major affixes, I can assure you that you'll want to know everything about your class in 850 gear.

[Deleted]

I think the bigger issue (besides the time limit) is how different the dungeons are and the difficulty being amplified by different affixes on different degrees.

Pretty much if your key rolls Maw of Souls at high levels, then you are already set. If it rolls Arcway on the other hand ...
(And no I don't mean +2 to +6 etc. but after +8 to +10 and upward some instances just become really, really hard while others remain rather easy.)

[Arayaa]

Lol @ the people that think a time limit makes the content challenging. It doesn't. It just means you stack the few lucky specs with burst AoE and strong single target and it's gg.

The time limit isn't that strict. We've done +10 with a group comp consisting of Guardian/Shadow/Ret/DH/Holy Paladin. It's not a bad comp, but there are certainly better. +10 gives the best gear, so it's clearly doable without the perfect comp. You would only need a perfect comp if you were looking to push +11-15 for achievements etc.

[callipygoustp]

Go ahead and repeat the same rubbish again if you want, but it doesn't change anything.

Yes, the players decide what classes and specs they include ... based on the game design. The game design provides a puzzle. Players figure out the best way of over coming the puzzle. The result: some classes and specs are excluded. Causation pure and simple.

There is nothing to change. Nothing in that quote is wrong. That it doesn't/hasn't sunk in for you is not my concern. Objectively, those are facts.

Nowhere does less efficient or less optimal demand exclusion.

For the competitive game player it does. For gamers that want to efficiently overcome a challenge, it does. Mythic+ is for people that want a challenge.

I asked you to state where that is the case.
You cannot, because it does not exist.
If something is so inherent to not only this one game, but the genre then show me where it exists.

Are you saying you know of no examples were people stack their group for dungeons or raids? Cause if you can't, if I have to provide an example, you definitely don't belong in this conversation.

Your game design argument is about something entirely different.

No, it's directly related to the discussion but you're intent on ignoring it because it kills your argument.

If your statement was right, then you would not be capable of taking a sub-optimal class or spec, because there would be no point.
The fact you can proves there is no inherent mechanic or design which is forcibly excluding specs or classes from content simply based on their performance compared to another.
Players only decide that.

Oh man, are you really at a point where you're only response is to misdirect? My statement is correct but in no way does that mean you cannot over come challenges with a less than optimal class/spec grouping. Nice try. This conversation needed a false dilemma fallacy thrown in the mix.

[TheWorkingTitle]

TLDR: harder content should come from more mechanics and dmg/health. Not a rushfest a time limit gives

Man, I could not agree more.

Mythic+'s difficulty increase has been a breath of fresh air with how stupidly easy regular Mythic is, but the entire experience is tainted and lessened due to the timer.

[IxilaFA]

That makes zero sense.
What if the time limit is removed, but the dungeon has LK/Ragnaros mechanical level of difficulty and needs several hundred wipes to master?

OP wants the difficulty to come from boss mechanics not speed style run. What's not to understand about that?

Has it been so long since 10-man Heroic was a thing that people forgot how ridiculously overtuned or undertuned it always was? You can't make interesting, engaging, balanced encounters for only 5 players. If there's a tight enrage timer, you need a Bloodlust. If there's movement mechanics, no Ele Shammies or Boomkins please. If there's tons of adds, Demon Hunters only, please. You can't make healing intense because one healer just can't keep up at the pace that multiple healers can. You can't make interesting tank mechanics because you only have one tank.

Of course, if you really want to sit down and think all these things through, you can do that, but then this requires more dev time focused on coming up with not just dozens of encounters to begin with, but hundreds of variations on those encounters. Then comes the balancing. At what stage do you add more mechanics? At what stage do players just say "fuck it" to the next level and just keep doing the same level over and over again so they don't have to worry about learning additional mechanics?

It's not that the idea is a bad idea on paper. But in practice it would be horrible. You're asking for hundreds of abilities that have the potential to be buggy, under or over tuned, or just plain not interesting. It takes a lot of time and effort for very little reward on Blizzard's part, since players will just say "fuck it" and not do the content over a certain level.

[ComputerNerd]

There is nothing to change. Nothing in that quote is wrong. That it doesn't/hasn't sunk in for you is not my concern. Objectively, those are facts.

Yes there is.
I asked you something very simple.
Show me where that is inherent to the design, where it actually excludes a spec because it is sub-par.
You will convince me if you can show me where that is the case.

"for the competitive game" - that is again not inherent to the game, but player dictated.
Players dictate what is "competitive" or not.
That is an arbitrary distinction, dictated by some percentage or other measure that suits a players argument at the time.

You keep saying that the game inherently excludes specs, but you cant provide a single example where a spec is actually unable to participate in content because it is lesser performing.

Come on, if something is so inherent then it should be simple for you to provide that evidence.
If you keep refusing to, then that show you are lying.
I have stated exactly what it is you need to convince me.

Your own examples are wrong, such as arena which has not excluded any spec from participation.
Some performed better, something I am not arguing against.
And that will make some more attractive, but it does not actually block you from using one less effective.
Any barrier excluding a spec due to performance is player-created.

Nothing in the game is excluding a spec because it performs less.
Nowhere is it prevented from participation.
Players only create those barriers.

[munkeyinorbit]

Now before people freak out and start yelling noob let me explain:

Imo harder dungeon content should come from more dmg, more health or the affixes like there is now. Where does a time limit fit in there? It doesn't make it harder, just more frustrating.

All it promotes is rushed content. One of the problems people had with challenge modes was it felt like a rush fest. How is mythic+ different?

I've been tanking several +5/6 mythics now and all the time i was thinking: must pull faster, must pull faster, must make the time limit! The fact you always have a guy yelling gogogo! doesn't help either (we always made the time limit but you always have 'that guy')

Imagine if mythic raids had a time limit. The outcry would be immense but for dungeons its ok to have a rushfest?
The time limit promotes (at a high mythic+ level) certain class combos purely because of the time limit.

Hard dungeons are perfectly reasonable with just using dmg/mechanics.


TLDR: harder content should come from more mechanics and dmg/health. Not a rushfest a time limit gives

Wow. It has been less than a week and youre already asking for nerfs?

[ComputerNerd]

Wow. It has been less than a week and youre already asking for nerfs?

They question the purpose of the timer, and didn't say they wanted things easier overall.
Just that the difficulty is coming from the wrong place.