No flying in 7.0 confirmed

[-Joker-]

I'm sure if you put a poll up on Blizzard's own forums right now asking if people would rather have flight or immersion, you'd see the overwhelming response for flight.

Objection, calls for speculation. You have no way of factually knowing there would be an overwhelming response for flight. Also, there is no way to add a poll (unless something has changed on their site).

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So you mean Lothar and his gryphon didn't fight side by side to retrieve the king?
We obviously watched two different movies then.

What I saw was an orc attack a flight path gryphon (which we can do in game), it fought back (which it does in game), and it died (also done in game). He was not using his flying mount for combat, aerial or otherwise.

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The entirety of the first 25 seconds contains pure majestic flying scenes and shows exactly why we want to fly, what are you trying to imply?
Yes that is exactly how WoW is meant to be played, that´s why we want flying.

The first 25 seconds were flight paths through Dun Morogh, Deadwind pass, and Dalaran. It was not some rogue on a firedrake raining down destruction on a dire wolf.

[Elim Garak]

What I saw was an orc attack a flight path gryphon (which we can do in game), it fought back (which it does in game), and it died (also done in game). He was not using his flying mount for combat, aerial or otherwise.

So you didn't watch the movie then? Because it's his PERSONAL flying mount. It's actually a quite rare mount because it's a two-seat gryphon.

[-Joker-]

You're confusing WoW with Warcraft, two different types of game with differing design/ideology.

Orcs vs humans. This was the beginning of Thrall, the end of Lane Wrynn, and the darkening of Medivh. All characters from the games. The world of warcraft is simply the open world showing where stories took place... or as we like to call it, questing/adventuring.

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So you didn't watch the movie then? Because it's his PERSONAL flying mount. It's actually a quite rare mount because it's a two-seat gryphon.

That was Wrynn's gryphon, and he even stated it was trained to fly to and from locations. Lothar was not driving, and it was not his personal mount. Guess you need to go back and watch it.

[quras]

SNIP..
That was Wrynn's gryphon, and he even stated it was trained to fly to and from locations. Lothar was not driving, and it was not his personal mount. Guess you need to go back and watch it.

He didn't land in the middle of the Orcs because it was trained to pre-land there.

He did that himself.

[Elim Garak]

That was Wrynn's gryphon, and he even stated it was trained to fly to and from locations. Lothar was not driving, and it was not his personal mount. Guess you need to go back and watch it.

Go see the movie already. He drove it just like he would drive a horse. The gryphon had the same controls as a horse would. He even swooped in onto enemies. Trained to fly to and from locations my ass.

[-Joker-]

Go see the movie already. He drove it just like he would drive a horse. The gryphon had the same controls as a horse would. He even swooped in onto enemies. Trained to fly to and from locations my ass.

He may have crashed it into some orcs, but he was not the one steering through the long flights to Dal and Kara. Plus, there was no flight in Vanilla

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I made a thread asking about Legion Pathfinder PT 2 http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...Will-it-happen and asked everyone to keep the flight chat here (as to avoid multiple discussions of the same topic). This is simply a gauge to see how folks are doing, when they think it is coming, and what they have to say about it. Hopefully people stick to the topic and the mods allow it to exist.

[Elim Garak]

He may have crashed it into some orcs,

That's impossible without controls.

but he was not the one steering through the long flights to Dal and Kara.

You don't steer a horse on a straight road either, in fact you can sleep on it.

Plus, there was no flight in Vanilla

Of course there was. It's just personal flying mounts were not available to the general public.

[-Joker-]

That's impossible without controls.

You don't steer a horse on a straight road either, in fact you can sleep on it.

Of course there was. It's just personal flying mounts were not available to the general public.

I forgot you like to fight about everything. Suppose I need to choose my words more carefully in the future.

[Mafic]

My main character is a mage, so I have featherfall and blink / invisibility at my disposal. I don't need any shenanigans beside the whistle, but I use emerald winds + glider toy on occasion to traverse High Mountain or Stormheim. If I get dismounted, I just run further until I get out of combat, or reset combat with invisibility. This whole ordeal of no flying is nothing more than a major annoyance and a waste of time and does nothing to make me value Legion more. This expansion is somehow better than WoD, but this does not say much, and it has nothing to do with no-flying.

WoW devs already nerfed many of the gimmicks used to imitate flight in Broken Isles and they don't like stealth bypassing their "content" in Suramar. The problem with restricting flight mid expanson is that they also limit/nerf the gimmicks in place to replicate or simulate fllying mounts.

Instead of accepting the position that it was a mistake to make the world smaller and maze like they are taking the position that player ingenuity and creativity to circumvent the maze like designs is unacceptable.

Flying mounts as I argued in the other thread are very integral to the world of WoW and it can't be taken away carelessly. That is why the WoW devs struggle to replace it as each month passes and more and more players vote with their hearts and minds to reject this ground and pound fantasy foisted upon them without a clear say. Hiding in the flog of ambiguity and vaguness about the future of flight I sense a deep fear that the WoW devs have run out of other gimmicks for players to engage in the open world. Flying will come to Legion and it will make WoW great again.

[Thimagryn]

I made a thread asking about Legion Pathfinder PT 2 http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...Will-it-happen and asked everyone to keep the flight chat here (as to avoid multiple discussions of the same topic). This is simply a gauge to see how folks are doing, when they think it is coming, and what they have to say about it. Hopefully people stick to the topic and the mods allow it to exist.

We already know generally when it will happen. I think the question more appropriate to this thread's topic is when people want flight, which is a different topic.

When do I think flight will come? Mid expansion (7.2/3/4). When would I like flight? Preferrably the sooner the better after Max Level. Use the TBC/Wrath/MoP model.

[Dhrizzle]

Except that I was addressing their actions, not the people themselves. I didn't say , "Alex Afriasabi and Ion Hazzicostas are stupid dumb heads", I said Blizzard(who is not a person) and their blind fanatic are ignoring the issue; which they are.

Although I'll admit I probably went overboard with the "blind" part. They're clearly seeing something.

Dismissing people as "blind fanatics" is totally attacking the person rather than their arguments. Likewise when you (in earlier posts) decide to call Blizzard petty or liars instead of accepting that their opinions on game design differ to yours.

Tanaan is a perfect example where a good chunk of elites were hidden away in towers, buildings, or surrounded by so many elites it made pulling almost impossible. The few elite mobs that were out in the open of Tanaan had significantly more HP and required more player effort to take down.

Flying doesn't trivialize Tanaan, so by default it wouldn't trivialize WoD zones in general. Treasure rewards were low scale and Legion is no different with low scale treasures.

I knew you hadn't played Legion and so were just making stuff up there, but I didn't realise you also hadn't played Tanaan jungle. The majority of rares were wandering around in the open and could be singled out from the air, and the ability to fly completely trivialised the design of the Apexis areas by allowing you to hop around the high value objectives and ignore the others.

They won't ever do that as long as they can get away with Pathfinder. As I've said in the past, Pathfinder gives Blizzard everything that No-flying was meant to accomplish, but without actually having the face the consequences of removing flight entirely. It's not being done for the benefit of the players or the improvement of the game. It's 100% meant as a tool for profit. Anyone who tells you otherwise is either absolutely ignorant(willful or otherwise), disingenuous, or working for Blizzard.

There you go again, please remove your sig because it totally goes against your "argument" that people who disagree with you are ignorant.

What are you even trying to say? Yes Pathfinder gives Blizzard the things they want from no-flight, which is a world where they can design and pace the content around players who are traveling along the ground. Pathfinder gives players who enjoy flight a chance to earn it later in the expansion, which is a benefit to the players. Yes, technically giving players something to do is "100% meant as a tool for profit," but if that's your stance then the same applies to literally every feature in every game that people pay money for.

You can't make an informed decision about least amount of time to go to point A or B when the map isn't an accurate representation of what the game world is like. Thanks for reinforcing my point and showing that even when designing a rat maze Blizzard still fails at the principles of maze design.

Also flying allows you stop between points A and B to do something else so there is more decision making involved then trying to navigate terrain that is misleading to the player.

You are essentially trying to rationalize sloppy game design by WoW devs as decision making. In actuality what is happening is that players are forced to navigate sloppy terrain and map design by WoW devs using ingenuity.

I'm sorry to say this but there's noting wrong with the terrain design, you just need to get better at exploring and finding the paths.

Problem solving for poor design is not game play. That shows how lazy and sloppy WoW devs are and petty for restricting flying mounts in the first place.

That is like saying a Warlock dropping to their death in High Mountain to bypass most of the maze and then using a resurrection stone as being part of clever play and smart thinking.

That is disturbing and sad that players have to abuse mechanics like gliders, rez stones, and other toys to navigate poorly designed terrain.

If you find that sad and disturbing then you must have hated WoW from day 1 as I've been abusing gliders parachute-cloaks + rocket boots and soulstones since Vanilla.

[Eapoe]

I keep having to say "That's not what I'm saying" because people constantly twist what I AM saying to male their own arguments sound better. At this point I've explained myself so many times that I'm sick of having to keep doing it, only so someone can misinterpret it again.

All YOU really have to say is that you disagree with my points, and so we can agree to disagree.

I don't disagree with the points, I simply am pointing out the flaws with them. Part of the issue comes from you addressing something, I countered it, you go "that's not what I'm saying, THIS is what I'm saying," to me countering that, to you again going "don't twist my words," so on and so on. You aren't even fully addressing the post now, as I clearly asked you to define specifically what you are saying and you refuse. Obviously, if I'm misunderstanding you so much then you need to do a better job of what you are stating, as the post I replied to was asking for specifics when you said "make flight better and more interactive." After all, I've addressed my concerns with your ideas to have you simply say I'm twisting your words around.

[SirCowdog]

How is this a tool for profit? You complete all these things from playing the game.

Yes, exactly! You complete all those things by playing the game, even the parts that you wouldn't normally play! Blizzard is successfully getting people to jump through more hoops, spending more time consuming the game, than ever before. All in order to get what they want....but they aren't even getting what they want! They're doing all these tasks to unlock flying without even knowing how or when the list will be complete!

Think about that for a second. I mean, really, actually stop and THINK. We don't know what part 2 of Pathfinder will involve doing. We don't even know if there's a part 3, or 4! We don't know WHEN the list will end and flight will be available, outside some vague mention of "about midway through the expansion". And yet people are going through a lot of trouble in order to complete all the objectives anyway, even though those objectives have nothing to do with the open world or flying!!!

Leveling up and then doing the emissary quests will get you all the rep you need for that part of the achievement, LFR bosses count for the achievement as well. Before you state time gating, again, how is that profit? Yes, I know you say that will keep people subbed and keep playing, but this implies people will just stop playing once they have flight.

It's very likely people might stop playing once they have flight and realize there's nothing left to do. But that's beside the point! Blizzard is getting money in hand rather than taking a risk of MAYBE getting money later, once the entire picture is available for players to be able to make a full, educated decision on the product based on fact instead of expectation and hype.

As many people have pointed out already, this is the Sunk Cost Fallacy at work.

And that doesn't account for any catch-up mechanics which are available later on in the game. Even Artifact research, something which is in the game right now, will speed up the consumption of the game the further into the expansion we go. Higher level gear which is available later in the expansion will speed things up as well. What if there are rep tokens like in WoD? And if Legion goes on sale? Even less cost.

People who buy Legion later in the expansion, when the achievement is fully listed and complete-able WILL spend less subbed time to unlock flying than people who are stuck in the time gate right now because of the EXPECTATION of flying.

If you don't understand why or how getting players to buy now and stay strung along, chasing that carrot, makes Blizzard profit under a subscription-based business plan, then I don't know what to tell you.

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I don't disagree with the points, I simply am pointing out the flaws with them.

No, you don't point out flaws. You twist what's being said to CREATE a flaw. Do you not understand the difference?

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You aren't even fully addressing the post now, as I clearly asked you to define specifically what you are saying and you refuse. .

Yes, and I explained why that is. I've already explained my points to you two or three times, and each time you come back with the same garbage about spamming daze mechanics everywhere in the sky(which is absolute NOT what I proposed).

It's not that I don't want to have a discussion, or am unwilling to admit I'm wrong(which I've done many times in the past). I'm just sick of having what I post misinterpreted and changed to create points that I never made. There's so much straw man in some of the replies that I feel like I should be seeing flying monkeys and yellow bricks.

[Dhrizzle]

Yes, exactly! You complete all those things by playing the game, even the parts that you wouldn't normally play! Blizzard is successfully getting people to jump through more hoops, spending more time consuming the game, than ever before. All in order to get what they want....but they aren't even getting what they want! They're doing all these tasks to unlock flying without even knowing how or when the list will be complete!

Think about that for a second. I mean, really, actually stop and THINK. We don't know what part 2 of Pathfinder will involve doing. We don't even know if there's a part 3, or 4! We don't know WHEN the list will end and flight will be available, outside some vague mention of "about midway through the expansion". And yet people are going through a lot of trouble in order to complete all the objectives anyway, even though those objectives have nothing to do with the open world or flying!!!




It's very likely people might stop playing once they have flight and realize there's nothing left to do. But that's beside the point! Blizzard is getting money in hand rather than taking a risk of MAYBE getting money later, once the entire picture is available for players to be able to make a full, educated decision on the product based on fact instead of expectation and hype.

As many people have pointed out already, this is the Sunk Cost Fallacy at work.

And that doesn't account for any catch-up mechanics which are available later on in the game. Even Artifact research, something which is in the game right now, will speed up the consumption of the game the further into the expansion we go. What if there are rep tokens like in WoD? Higher level gear which is available later in the expansion will speed things up as well. And if Legion goes on sale? Even less cost.

People who buy Legion later in the expansion, when the achievement is fully listed and complete-able WILL spend less subbed time to unlock flying than people who are stuck in the time gate right now because of the EXPECTATION of flying.

If you don't understand why or how that makes Blizzard profit under a subscription-based business plan, then I don't know what to tell you

So your saying that Blizzard's evil plan to make more profits involves catch-up mechanics that allow players to subscribe for less time? Wouldn't that result in less profits if players have the option to remain unsubbed until the last few months with little drawback?

[Mafic]

Yes, exactly! You complete all those things by playing the game, even the parts that you wouldn't normally play! Blizzard is successfully getting people to jump through more hoops, spending more time consuming the game, than ever before. All in order to get what they want....but they aren't even getting what they want! They're doing all these tasks to unlock flying without even knowing how or when the list will be complete!

Think about that for a second. I mean, really, actually stop and THINK. We don't know what part 2 of Pathfinder will involve doing. We don't even know if there's a part 3, or 4! We don't know WHEN the list will end and flight will be available, outside some vague mention of "about midway through the expansion". And yet people are going through a lot of trouble in order to complete all the objectives anyway, even though those objectives have nothing to do with the open world or flying!!!




It's very likely people might stop playing once they have flight and realize there's nothing left to do. But that's beside the point! Blizzard is getting money in hand rather than taking a risk of MAYBE getting money later, once the entire picture is available for players to be able to make a full, educated decision on the product based on fact instead of expectation and hype.

As many people have pointed out already, this is the Sunk Cost Fallacy at work.

And that doesn't account for any catch-up mechanics which are available later on in the game. Even Artifact research, something which is in the game right now, will speed up the consumption of the game the further into the expansion we go. Higher level gear which is available later in the expansion will speed things up as well. What if there are rep tokens like in WoD? And if Legion goes on sale? Even less cost.

People who buy Legion later in the expansion, when the achievement is fully listed and complete-able WILL spend less subbed time to unlock flying than people who are stuck in the time gate right now because of the EXPECTATION of flying.

If you don't understand why or how getting players to buy now and stay strung along, chasing that carrot, makes Blizzard profit under a subscription-based business plan, then I don't know what to tell you.

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No, you don't point out flaws. You twist what's being said to CREATE a flaw. Do you not understand the difference?

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Yes, and I explained why that is. It's not that I don't want to have a discussion, or am unwilling to admit I'm wrong(which I've done many times in the past). I'm just sick of having what I post misinterpreted and changed to create points that I never made. There's so much straw man in some of the replies that I feel like I should be seeing flying monkeys and yellow bricks.

WoW devs can take a leap of faith and restore flying and watch players come back to the game or try to convince existing players to stick around with ground and pound game play in arguably the most alt restrictive expansion to date.

I, as a customer, am not willing to take a leap of faith again based on the info I know today, Oct, 19, 2016. I already did it with WoD and accepted that they would have flying for 6.1 at face value based on what blues were saying well before the launch of WoD. Why? Because WoW devs up to that point did not see flying as the enemy of their world content design and patch 6.1 did not have much else going for it so as other players figured that it was a patch to introduce flying, selfie, etc things to keep players occupied and hold them over till patch 6.2. That made logical sense to me from my point of view as a customer and seemed very reasonable. The only dev that was openly hostile towards flying at the time was Alex Afriasiabi. Since he isn't a lead it is easy for me to say I did not anticipate that his opinion was shared among other WoW devs at the time. We had no evidence of this other than that flight was not tested in beta for the first time in WoW history of expansions.

Just like when the no flying announcement came on a third party website heading into a weekend the announcement of no flying in 6.1 revealed that something was seriously wrong at that point. My insider contact was also vindicated as I had doubted this person and only reinforces that something more was brewing upon the horizon in the near future regarding the future of flight which later found out was the bombshell of no flying forever from the WoW devs.

It is not my job anymore as a customer to extend the olive branch. WoW devs must do it and do it convincingly with the utmost sincerity and regret. Legion patchfinder part 1 is the metaphorical representation of the half-hearted extension of an olive branch with half of it missing. If they are in the wrong on an issue, and the WoW devs were when trying to remove flying forever, then they must commit 100% to rectify the situation.

Failure to do that has caused a polarized schism and inability to mend fences. Tacking on a raid requirement and who knows what else is not an olive branch. It is flat out pettiness coming from the same devs that discovered that they hit a bees nest knowing the consequences. And yet still complaining about the outcome of no flying forever that players warned them about if they went through with it. But they did it anyways showing an infamous level of poor social calibration, business acumen and aritistic direction. It took the arm twisting by the bean counters to realize the gravity of the situation the devs foisted upon themselves. Basically looking for a problem to an answer which WoW devs are infamous for in the past anyways.

The catchup mechanics, cheaper box price, and less sub fees all are advantages for players to sit out as long as possible in Legion. For me I gain even better play in other games for the fraction of the cost and no gating of travel mechanisms and treated like it is some kind of reward to be regrinded over and over again when MMORPG is about gear progression not shiny gold stars.

[Eapoe]

Yes, exactly! You complete all those things by playing the game, even the parts that you wouldn't normally play! Blizzard is successfully getting people to jump through more hoops, spending more time consuming the game, than ever before. All in order to get what they want....but they aren't even getting what they want! They're doing all these tasks to unlock flying without even knowing how or when the list will be complete!

Think about that for a second. I mean, really, actually stop and THINK. We don't know what part 2 of Pathfinder will involve doing. We don't even know if there's a part 3, or 4! We don't know WHEN the list will end and flight will be available, outside some vague mention of "about midway through the expansion". And yet people are going through a lot of trouble in order to complete all the objectives anyway, even though those objectives have nothing to do with the open world or flying!!!




It's very likely people might stop playing once they have flight and realize there's nothing left to do. But that's beside the point! Blizzard is getting money in hand rather than taking a risk of MAYBE getting money later, once the entire picture is available for players to be able to make a full, educated decision on the product based on fact instead of expectation and hype.

As many people have pointed out already, this is the Sunk Cost Fallacy at work.

And that doesn't account for any catch-up mechanics which are available later on in the game. Even Artifact research, something which is in the game right now, will speed up the consumption of the game the further into the expansion we go. Higher level gear which is available later in the expansion will speed things up as well. What if there are rep tokens like in WoD? And if Legion goes on sale? Even less cost.

People who buy Legion later in the expansion, when the achievement is fully listed and complete-able WILL spend less subbed time to unlock flying than people who are stuck in the time gate right now because of the EXPECTATION of flying.

If you don't understand why or how getting players to buy now and stay strung along, chasing that carrot, makes Blizzard profit under a subscription-based business plan, then I don't know what to tell you.

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No, you don't point out flaws. You twist what's being said to CREATE a flaw. Do you not understand the difference?

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Yes, and I explained why that is. I've already explained my points to you two or three times, and each time you come back with the same garbage about spamming daze mechanics everywhere in the sky(which is absolute NOT what I proposed).

It's not that I don't want to have a discussion, or am unwilling to admit I'm wrong(which I've done many times in the past). I'm just sick of having what I post misinterpreted and changed to create points that I never made. There's so much straw man in some of the replies that I feel like I should be seeing flying monkeys and yellow bricks.

At work, so this won't be as in depth as I'd like, but gating content and time sinks are an illusion, in a very basic sense. Just for a comparison, let's look at 2 types of players. Player A is like Mafic, the guy who isn't even playing the game and therefore a time sink obviously doesn't exist. In fact, he uses time sink as one reason to play the game, therefore making Blizzard LOSE money instead of MAKE money from a false term in gameplay mechanics. End player A.
Player B Jen the person playing the game, jumping thru the hoops for the proverbial carrot. The issue of time sinks again is lost on this player, as all of pathfinder 1 can be completed in 1 month of gametime (less the more diehard you are). Whether you play 1 day or 1 month, Blizzqrd makes the same amount of money. Even if Player B completes part 1 and then unsubs until part 2, the same amount of money is made by the company. This is more of Blizzard making the game to keep players playing in their sub time and make the monthly cost viable, giving players a reason to log in over and over, instead of staying logged out for days/weeks at a time. Either way, the profit/loss to the company remains the same.
As for the carrot on a stick analogy, another reason this is flawed is so in your face it's not even funny. The term itself shows that once players have said carrot that they are done with everything. After all, you have the carrot, the race is over and no longer needs to be ran. Sure, you're content with the carrot now, but you are now missing out on the main part of what the race was made for, to run amen have fun.
As far as your points go, they are filled with flaws and instead of addressing them and improving on your ideas, you try to justify them more by saying I am twisting your words. Exactly how is anything twisted when you specifically stated ideas such as "hazardous areas" and "corridor style quests?" This is taking the problems (perceived as such by some people) and moving them to where you don't want them. Even when this thread was new(ish) you talked with others about castles that you could assault different ways, such as ground and air, and having hazards that each. You've used Suramar as examples of things that could be in orporated with flight in regard to tech, yet that again brings us back to things in the air for people to avoid, instead of just using flight what it's for, the convenience and time skip that it is. To make it anything more changes the dynamic of the game, which even I stated couldn't be amazingly good or amazingly bad, yet you will still have people bitch that flight is now a nuisance. This is one major flaw with your ideas, that you will never make everyone happy and these ideas are not as good as they 1st seem to be.
Quick final note: the carrot on the stick analogy also goes to show you aren't B there to run the race (play the game) but simply there for the reward at the end. This furthers the idea that you want nothing to do with the race (game) itself and just want the carrot.

[-Joker-]

We already know generally when it will happen. I think the question more appropriate to this thread's topic is when people want flight, which is a different topic.

When do I think flight will come? Mid expansion (7.2/3/4). When would I like flight? Preferrably the sooner the better after Max Level. Use the TBC/Wrath/MoP model.

I would be on board with selling a flight tome for 100k, or complete the meta (making both available at the same time). When do I think it will come? 7.2 or 7.3. When would I like it? 7.1 or 7.1.X. But, since I am a realist, and am ok with the expansion, I suppose I will just have to wait to see it testing on the PTR.

[Deleted]

I would be on board with selling a flight tome for 100k, or complete the meta (making both available at the same time). When do I think it will come? 7.2 or 7.3. When would I like it? 7.1 or 7.1.X. But, since I am a realist, and am ok with the expansion, I suppose I will just have to wait to see it testing on the PTR.

I would like to see the completion of PF in 7.1, especially if this patch also brings the resolution of the Suramar questline. Honestly, Suramar with its guides is the only zone where no-flying is somehow justified. Everywhere else, it only adds tedium and no gameplay value at all. Grappling hooks are fun for some time, but now it's business as usual. With an item level over 800, and especially with some classes, even scaling mobs are not that much of a problem except the masses of suramar elite guards.

Yeah, when I have started in Classic, I have been a noob. These days are long gone. I am an experienced hero, so why did they take away my flying? I will not feel like a newbie again, only insulted. It's like taking an olympic bicycle rider who won gold medals after gold medals, and force him onto a bike with training wheels again. Or take away his bike because he has to prove his skills once more.

[Lane]

I took a flight path over Stormheim yesterday and saw a waterfall I've never seen on foot (and I've completed that zone as both Alliance & Horde). I don't understand people saying you see/appreciate more from the ground. It's exactly the opposite for me. Similar experience with MoP as well, the first time I flew over Jade Forest I didn't realize how beautiful it is. Leveling through there all I see are trees.

[Zephire]

Well, I play on a PvE server, so PvP is not an argument for me. If PvP players in the majority find that no flight is better for their gaming experience in regards to world pvp, then their servers could stay without flight just fine. I would not want to decide that for them. But in PvE, things are different. And Pathfinder would be a good solution if it would be changed in this way:
- Only include Explorer and Loremaster - sans Suramaritan, because...
- Reputations should be removed (and Suramaritan requires a heavy investment into Nightfallen rep, I got to exalted before finishing Suramaritan...)
- Available from launch of the expansion, so if you want to unlock flying ASAP, then you could put your time and energy into it

Without all the reputation hoops and hidden timegating things (did I mention that you have to kill Xavius to finish Suramaritan?), Pathfinder would be acceptable. In its current design, it's nothing more than bullying.

Please take into account that I am quite a completionist in some regards, this means, I would be doing Explorer, Loremaster and Exalted in all available factions, anyway. My unwillingness to have reputations in Pathfinder comes from the fact that I find this part highly inappropriate. Beside that, I miss reputation mounts, no matter if flying or not. MoP did all things way better (beside double-gating of reputations, but they eventually corrected that).

Yeah, adjustments to pathfinder would surely be good.

My main character is a mage, so I have featherfall and blink / invisibility at my disposal. I don't need any shenanigans beside the whistle, but I use emerald winds + glider toy on occasion to traverse High Mountain or Stormheim. If I get dismounted, I just run further until I get out of combat, or reset combat with invisibility. This whole ordeal of no flying is nothing more than a major annoyance and a waste of time and does nothing to make me value Legion more. This expansion is somehow better than WoD, but this does not say much, and it has nothing to do with no-flying.

Which is a fine opinion. Me on the other hand do enjoy seeing people run by on their mount, interacting with the terrain and other things non-flying. Did you play vanilla? Do you think you would have the same opinion you do now if you never experienced flying or did it change with how convenient flying is? Just curious^^

You can't make an informed decision about least amount of time to go to point A or B when the map isn't an accurate representation of what the game world is like. Thanks for reinforcing my point and showing that even when designing a rat maze Blizzard still fails at the principles of maze design.

Well, you can make an informed decision. "This route will be more interesting and maybe even faster than the other one. Let's try!". That to me is an informed decision based on your own preferences and observations.

Problem solving for poor design is not game play. That shows how lazy and sloppy WoW devs are and petty for restricting flying mounts in the first place.

That is like saying a Warlock dropping to their death in High Mountain to bypass most of the maze and then using a resurrection stone as being part of clever play and smart thinking.

That is disturbing and sad that players have to abuse mechanics like gliders, rez stones, and other toys to navigate poorly designed terrain.

What would gliders etc be for if not this? I think the warlock example is great. You've a tool and you use it and you achieve what you're trying to do.

I don't find the design poor or sloppy. I find it interesting. On the other hand, flying in it self might need a rework. Mobs using some king of ability to drag you down and dismount you, having a short fatigue timer when flying so that you've to decent when it runs out, letting players use grappling hooks to drag players down or something.