Trial of Valor is Overtuned

[Shampro]

Blizzard agrees with this thread, ToV was overtuned, not much more to say.

No they don't. They are happy with the difficulty, the rewards is what is getting buffed. Which is what was proposed.

[DakonBlackblade]

No they don't. They are happy with the difficulty, the rewards is what is getting buffed. Which is what was proposed.

Ye that means they agree, the place was overtuned therefore it needs to drop better rewards so it isnt overtuned anymore. Now you do heroic ToV at ilevel 870sh and drop ilevel 875 and upgrade youserlf, the overtuning is solved...

After 30 pages of thread ppl still din't understand that overtuned is not the same as the encounters are too hard, overtuned means its reward does not match its difficulty. Got it now ?

[Shampro]

Ye that means they agree, the palce was overtund therefore it needs to drop betetr rewards so it isnt overtuned anymore. Now you do heroic ToV at ilevel 870sh and drop ilevel 875 and upgrade youserlf, the overtuning is solved...

After 30 pages of thread ppl still din't understand that overtuned is not the same as difficult, overtuned means its reward does not match its difficulty. Got it now ?

Gonna try to piece together what you said through that writing, but basicly overtuned means that the encounters missed the mark (Likewise to undertuned). They are happy with the tuning not the reward, thats the end of it. Ok? Ok.

[DakonBlackblade]

Gonna try to piece together what you said through that writing, but basicly overtuned means that the encounters missed the mark (contrary to undertuned). They are happy with the tuning not the reward, thats the end of it. Ok? Ok.

Noo not OK you still did not understand, Ill try to explain once again. Overtuned means the rewards do not match the difficulty of the encounters, before ToV heroic required ppl to be somewhere around ilevel 870 to win and the boss would then drop 870 ilevel reward wich would not be an upgrade, the raid was therefore overtuned. Now ToV heroic will still need ilevel 870 to win but will drop 875 ilevel gear, therefore the raid is properly rewading and not overtuned anymore.

A very basic example for those who still didn't get it, if ToV heroic needed you to be in 930 ilevel gear to win and dropped 960 ilevel rewards, it'd be hard as fuck but not overtuned. On the other end of the spectrum if it needed only ilevel 820 to win but dropped ilevel 815 gear it'd be overtuned. Clear now ?

K so now that you understand (hopefully) it becomes crystall clear that blizzard agreed that the place was overtuned.

Also you didn't have to piece anything trough anything, my first post had like 3 typos, you understood it perfectly well but wanted to be anoying just for the sake of it.

[Krazzorx]

Both Cenarius and Nythendra drop equal rewards, and clearly aren't same difficulty.

[Krom2040]

After 30 pages of thread ppl still din't understand that overtuned is not the same as the encounters are too hard, overtuned means its reward does not match its difficulty. Got it now ?

To put it bluntly, you're wrong. It can mean either thing or both things, depending on the context. Something can be overtuned for the target item level without dropping anything at all. Somebody can also say that it's overtuned for the target rewards, since if there are rewards at all, then there's a supposition that they should feel, well, rewarding. Something shouldn't require 860 gear and then drop 850, because then there's a clear mismatch.

I mean, you can define a term however you want, but it doesn't mean anybody else will understand what you're talking about.

[Dawnrage]

-snip-

I understand your point but sadly that's not how the game works with it's difficulty:reward ratio. A very recent example outside of ToV would be as someone above said - Mythic Nythendra vs Mythic Cenarius (or even their heroic counterparts). The difficulty between both is huge, especially in mythic, but the rewards are similiar with both dropping 880 gear.

ToV is simply following that trend laid down by past predecessors. To expect a path of progression is completely fine really, and it makes sense - why does harder content not drop more rewarding gear? However, WoW has never followed that simple formula, so I don't know why people are expecting different of ToV. It's nice that they buffed the base ilvl of ToV gear by 5 ilvls, but I don't think that necessarily means Blizzard is going to change the way they deal with rewards and difficulty - they certainly haven't in 10 years of WoW. I'm sure Nighthold will again have harder fights later on, with the earlier fights being freebies, and so far from what I can tell in the journal, the rewards are similiar as well, so I guess we can come to expect one of these threads for Nighthold?

People have to remember, EN, ToV, and even Nighthold are essentially considered one tier, kind of like what they did in WoD with Highmaul and Blackrock Foundry. If you think of ToV as simply an extension of EN, then it would fit the puzzle of why the fights are much harder than EN even though the gear isn't that much better, kind of like why earlier bosses in a tier are easier than later bosses even when they drop similiar gear.

The only thing I will question is Normal. I'm sure everyone thinks it's the difficulty that's meant for F&F and casuals and all that stuff, but if normal has no semblance of challenge, what makes it different from LFR besides just being organized? Can we not expect F&F and casuals to be able to do the bare minimum of what's required in a raid or is that too much to ask? If so, maybe it should just be as easy as LFR, but drop similiar gear to LFR? That would of course open up a whole new can of worms and complains, but I think people are being unreasonable with expecting normal to be as much of a joke as LFR but wanting it to drop gear that's an upgrade from LFR.

[Servos]

To those who say Blizzard agrees it's overturned. How exactly are people that can't currently kill the bosses going to magically be able to kill them on Tuesday? IMO overturned would have meant a relaxing of requirements (dps/heal). All adding 5 ilevels probably does is keep the peoples that were already killing it, killing it for a few more weeks.

[DakonBlackblade]

I understand your point but sadly that's not how the game works with it's difficulty:reward ratio. A very recent example outside of ToV would be as someone above said - Mythic Nythendra vs Mythic Cenarius (or even their heroic counterparts). The difficulty between both is huge, especially in mythic, but the rewards are similiar with both dropping 880 gear.

ToV is simply following that trend laid down by past predecessors. To expect a path of progression is completely fine really, and it makes sense - why does harder content not drop more rewarding gear? However, WoW has never followed that simple formula, so I don't know why people are expecting different of ToV. It's nice that they buffed the base ilvl of ToV gear by 5 ilvls, but I don't think that necessarily means Blizzard is going to change the way they deal with rewards and difficulty. I'm sure Nighthold will again have harder fights later on, with the earlier fights being freebies, and so far from what I can tell in the journal, the rewards are similiar as well, so I guess we can come to expect one of these threads for Nighthold?

Those fights are all in the same raid, theres no paralel with the ToV situation at all, on the same raid the ilevel reward will always be the same (altough Blizzard experimented with increasing item level rewards for harder bosses in a raid before) because even the last boss of a raid is not tuned for an ilevel higher than the raid drops, if you are fully decked out in EN gear you will overgear every encoutner there, the same will be true for Nighthold. The issue with ToV was that it was tuned for a gear level that was identical to the ilevel of the reward dropped, therefore it was overtuned. The solution couldve been retunign the encoutners so they would need less gear t ebat (effectively making the fights easier), but Blizz said they didn't want that, they like the difficulty o ToV, so they took the other road and buffed the reward, the effect is the same, the raid is now properly rewarding, and therefore isn't overtuned anymore.

To those who say Blizzard agrees it's overturned. How exactly are people that can't currently kill the bosses going to magically be able to kill them on Tuesday? IMO overturned would have meant a relaxing of requirements (dps/heal). All adding 5 ilevels probably does is keep the peoples that were already killing it, killing it for a few more weeks.

Ilevel 865sh ppl will struggle but they can beat Odyn and Guarm with enought effort, and when they do theyll drop some very nice 875 items that will make theire fight next week much easier.

[xcess]

Well lengendaries are getting ilvl increase so might help

[Krazzorx]

They did the scaling rewards in ilvl in hfc but, while idk if that was the majority, clearly many did not like it. They have in the past had the final boss drop higher ilvl gear (like helya) but hfc was unique.

[Avalrand]

Those fights are all in the same raid, theres no paralel with the ToV situation at all, on the same raid the ilevel reward will always be the same (altough Blizzard experimented with increasing item level rewards for harder bosses in a raid before) because even the last boss of a raid is not tuned for an ilevel higher than the raid drops, if you are fully decked out in EN gear you will overgear every encoutner there, the same will be true for Nighthold. The issue with ToV was that it was tuned for a gear level that was identical to the ilevel of the reward dropped, therefore it was overtuned. The solution couldve been retunign the encoutners so they would need less gear t ebat (effectively making the fights easier), but Blizz said they didn't want that, they like the difficulty o ToV, so they took the other road and buffed the reward, the effect is the same, the raid is now properly rewarding, and therefore isn't overtuned anymore.

Unfortunately, it isn't always that way. Blackhand Heroic was tuned around Heroic BRF gear according to the bluepost. Archimonde Heroic seemed to be tuned around Heroic HFC gear. I thought they understood it was a mistake, but seeing ToV I can say they didn't, they still stick to the plan that weaker players should farm the raid for a few months before killing the last boss. Prepare for Heroic Gul'dan, which will require 890 and 4/4 set for majority. Top 100 will obviously kill him in worse gear.

[Dawnrage]

Those fights are all in the same raid, theres no paralel with the ToV situation at all, on the same raid the ilevel reward will always be the same (altough Blizzard experimented with increasing item level rewards for harder bosses in a raid before) because even the last boss of a raid is not tuned for an ilevel higher than the raid drops, if you are fully decked out in EN gear you will overgear every encoutner there, the same will be true for Nighthold. The issue with ToV was that it was tuned for a gear level that was identical to the ilevel of the reward dropped, therefore it was overtuned. The solution couldve been retunign the encoutners so they would need less gear t ebat (effectively making the fights easier), but Blizz said they didn't want that, they like the difficulty o ToV, so they took the other road and buffed the reward, the effect is the same, the raid is now properly rewarding, and therefore isn't overtuned anymore..

Well this makes no sense though. You first say that the bosses at the end of a raid are tuned with a raid geared with drops from before it in mind, which I agree with. You certainly can beat Mythic Cenarius with gear that's base 880 (I don't agree with the overgearing part by the way). However, how is this different from ToV? Where you need 870 ilvl to beat something that drops 870 (before the buffs at least). Either way, both are dropping gear that's similiar, or in some classes case depending on stats, a downgrade from what they are using. I understand they are different raids, but like I said, they are essentially one tier, and of course as the tier goes on, the bosses are meant to be harder.

Even dating back to past expansions, this has always been the case with gear drops and difficulty. This is really nothing new at all. Not to mention EN is considered by many to be the easiest tier to date, so to use it as a sole comparison and not consider past expansions and raid tiers as well just seems really narrow minded.

[Fenderxx]

Looks like in the QA today they said they are bumping up the ilvl for the drops in HoV.

[Dawnrage]

To those who say Blizzard agrees it's overturned. How exactly are people that can't currently kill the bosses going to magically be able to kill them on Tuesday? IMO overturned would have meant a relaxing of requirements (dps/heal). All adding 5 ilevels probably does is keep the peoples that were already killing it, killing it for a few more weeks.

There were several hotfixes right after the first day to tone down the requirements on the fights by a decent amount. I don't know if people didn't go back or what but it's a lot more easier to make the checks now compared to the first day.

[Myztikrice]

Looks like in the QA today they said they are bumping up the ilvl for the drops in HoV.

Yes it's been discussed for about two pages now

[Bocek]

Coming from a normal raider perspective, I'd say ToV feels about right. I think it's more the case that EN is under-tuned.

[Deleted]

Coming from a normal raider perspective, I'd say ToV feels about right. I think it's more the case that EN is under-tuned.

How do you figure?

Tov isn't possible for strict normal raiders.

[chase_the_mofo]

its not overtuned cos you're not supposed to clear it 24h after launch you filthy casual crying all over mmo forums

Infracted

[Deleted]

Looks like in the QA today they said they are bumping up the ilvl for the drops in HoV.

Not really going to work for the bottom end, i'm sure it will for heroic and mythic.

Normal is overtuned. Raid gear you can't get because the fights are too hard won't help.