Huge Feral Nerfs

[Agartha]

5% baseline reduction in critical strike
Omen of Clarity only affects Shred, Thrash, and Swipe


Wow this is just fucking perplexing. The single biggest complaint about feral playability is energy starvation and they've hit us in crit and OoC. I just don't understand this. It's not even like feral is doing anything exceptional right now either. We're not the best single target by a long shot, we're ok at cleave and aoe fucking blows like usual. On top of this the new legendary we get is a buff to main. Fucking maim.

Well, between the grindiness of Legion, the shittiness of the legendary system, and the intractability of class balance issues, I'd say I'm just about done with wow. Enjoy Argus for me boys.

[Thorim]

5% baseline reduction in critical strike
Omen of Clarity only affects Shred, Thrash, and Swipe


Wow this is just fucking perplexing. The single biggest complaint about feral playability is energy starvation and they've hit us in crit and OoC. I just don't understand this. It's not even like feral is doing anything exceptional right now either. We're not the best single target by a long shot, we're ok at cleave and aoe fucking blows like usual. On top of this the new legendary we get is a buff to main. Fucking maim.

Well, between the grindiness of Legion, the shittiness of the legendary system, and the intractability of class balance issues, I'd say I'm just about done with wow. Enjoy Argus for me boys.

I think everyone is getting a 5% crit nerf.

[danji]

Omen of Clarity only affects Shred, Thrash, and Swipe

Isn't that just the talent? Moment of Clarity? Just as possible I read it wrong, but that was my understanding.

However, this is the first iteration of the PTR. There was also something about a cast on Travel Form (I think (hope) PVP only?) ... which just seems bizarre, so we'll see what sticks as we get a little closer, I think....

[Agartha]

Isn't that just the talent? Moment of Clarity? Just as possible I read it wrong, but that was my understanding.

However, this is the first iteration of the PTR. There was also something about a cast on Travel Form (I think (hope) PVP only?) ... which just seems bizarre, so we'll see what sticks as we get a little closer, I think....

Omen of Clarity Your auto attacks have a chance to cause a Clearcasting state, making your next Cat Form ability Shred, Thrash, or Swipe cost no Energy. Druid - Feral Spec.

[Thorbalt]

5% baseline reduction in critical strike
Omen of Clarity only affects Shred, Thrash, and Swipe


Wow this is just fucking perplexing. The single biggest complaint about feral playability is energy starvation and they've hit us in crit and OoC. I just don't understand this. It's not even like feral is doing anything exceptional right now either. We're not the best single target by a long shot, we're ok at cleave and aoe fucking blows like usual. On top of this the new legendary we get is a buff to main. Fucking maim.

Well, between the grindiness of Legion, the shittiness of the legendary system, and the intractability of class balance issues, I'd say I'm just about done with wow. Enjoy Argus for me boys.

really. energy issues are your single biggest issue?

not the fact that our only filler finisher does the same damage as a crit from shred?

oh wait sorry, it can never do more damage than a shred

but no, your inability to manage your energy bar is far more important

[-aiko-]

I really can't see these going through...the OoC nerf makes no sense.

[Rivin]

I really can't see these going through...the OoC nerf makes no sense.

I can. I mentioned to my boyfriend that I was disappointed in Omen of Clarity getting such a big nerf, so he took a look at it...and told me it's a massive buff, because it "saves more energy" than it does now, and couldn't understand why it wasn't when I tried to explain it to him. I would not be surprised at all if Blizzard views it the same way. I think you really have to be familiar with Feral's gameplay to get why it's a nerf, and a lot of people who look at it won't see that.

[Lycanoth]

I can. I mentioned to my boyfriend that I was disappointed in Omen of Clarity getting such a big nerf, so he took a look at it...and told me it's a massive buff, because it "saves more energy" than it does now, and couldn't understand why it wasn't when I tried to explain it to him. I would not be surprised at all if Blizzard views it the same way. I think you really have to be familiar with Feral's gameplay to get why it's a nerf, and a lot of people who look at it won't see that.

I can guarantee you this is intentional and not some oversight.

This is a nerf to people who utilized the proc properly and a buff to those who didn't watch it to begin with. This change seems like a response to the outcry of ferals who can't manage resources or a simple buff to save their life.

This is going to suck until we get t19 4pc which we will most likely be using every other OoC on Thrash anyways. Compared to other classes in this build we didn't get nerfed as hard as some other specs which makes me extremely paranoid about the next build.

[Agartha]

really. energy issues are your single biggest issue?

not the fact that our only filler finisher does the same damage as a crit from shred?

oh wait sorry, it can never do more damage than a shred

but no, your inability to manage your energy bar is far more important

playability issue you thick skulled fuck, not balance issue

[Raugnaut]

5% baseline reduction in critical strike
Omen of Clarity only affects Shred, Thrash, and Swipe


Wow this is just fucking perplexing. The single biggest complaint about feral playability is energy starvation and they've hit us in crit and OoC. I just don't understand this. It's not even like feral is doing anything exceptional right now either. We're not the best single target by a long shot, we're ok at cleave and aoe fucking blows like usual. On top of this the new legendary we get is a buff to main. Fucking maim.

Well, between the grindiness of Legion, the shittiness of the legendary system, and the intractability of class balance issues, I'd say I'm just about done with wow. Enjoy Argus for me boys.

If you need Omen for your rip/rake/moonfire, you fucked up your rotation. This will only result in a dps loss for those of lower skill - Those of higher skill will simply not waste omen procs on rip/rake/moonfire, instead putting them all into shred, which will result in a small dps boost.

The crit reduction is hitting ALL agility classes, so all agility classes will see a small dps loss.

- - - Updated - - -

I can. I mentioned to my boyfriend that I was disappointed in Omen of Clarity getting such a big nerf, so he took a look at it...and told me it's a massive buff, because it "saves more energy" than it does now, and couldn't understand why it wasn't when I tried to explain it to him. I would not be surprised at all if Blizzard views it the same way. I think you really have to be familiar with Feral's gameplay to get why it's a nerf, and a lot of people who look at it won't see that.

Please explain it to me. You only have a certain amount of energy produced for any single fight. Rip, Rake, and Moonfire use up 30, 35, and 30 energy respectively. Shred is our resource dump at 40 energy each. You should ALWAYS have the energy pooled so that you can keep up Rip, Rake, and Moonfire 24/7 - Any excess energy goes into Shred. When you are pooling energy for a Rip/Rake/Moonfire, and you get a clearcasting proc as soon as you hit those abilities, it is possible that you may overcap on energy a little bit - which, added up throughout a fight, may result in the dps loss of a few shreds. This is not even a nerf. Its akin to Resto, when blizzard started to knock low-mana cost spells off the list - First, spells like Rejuvenation, Swiftmend, and Lifebloom, all 3 of which used to be highly mana efficient, then Healing Touch, another mana efficient spell, finally reducing it all the way down to Regrowth, Resto's only non-mana efficient, but highly time-efficient spell. This is the same thing - Removing our high energy efficient abilities from the list so that the low energy efficient abilities consume more clearcasting procs - and thus, more combo points.

- - - Updated - - -

really. energy issues are your single biggest issue?

not the fact that our only filler finisher does the same damage as a crit from shred?

oh wait sorry, it can never do more damage than a shred

but no, your inability to manage your energy bar is far more important

Our filler finisher is 50% more energy efficient then Shred. Even if you do not put a single point into the Ferocious Bite critical damage build, and 6 into the Shred increased crit chance trait, Ferocious Bite is STILL more energy efficient then Shred. So, even if Bite does not deal high DPE, it is almost always more DPE efficient then Shred - The sole exception is if you are using Incarnation, at which point you remove Ferocious Bite from the rotation.

[lotj]

Please explain it to me. You only have a certain amount of energy produced for any single fight. Rip, Rake, and Moonfire use up 30, 35, and 30 energy respectively. Shred is our resource dump at 40 energy each. You should ALWAYS have the energy pooled so that you can keep up Rip, Rake, and Moonfire 24/7 - Any excess energy goes into Shred. When you are pooling energy for a Rip/Rake/Moonfire, and you get a clearcasting proc as soon as you hit those abilities, it is possible that you may overcap on energy a little bit - which, added up throughout a fight, may result in the dps loss of a few shreds. This is not even a nerf.

There are parts of the rotation where you specifically delay for an ooc proc (generally before a sr), and you always want to use an ooc proc immediately so it doesn't prevent another proc. There are also parts of the rotation where your next 3-4 moves are fixed (ex: Regrowth -> SR -> Rake -> AF or Regrowth -> Rip -> Rake) due to bt constraints, so you'll be forced to drag a ooc through multiple seconds and possibly eat another proc. That would end up in a net loss in energy reduction. Is there another interaction that would be considered a nerf?

If not, you're giving up on back-to-back ooc procs in exchange for it always saving 40 energy. Feels like a QoL trade-off where any impact on dps will be more than squashed by AB rng.

[Raugnaut]

There are parts of the rotation where you specifically delay for an ooc proc (generally before a sr), and you always want to use an ooc proc immediately so it doesn't prevent another proc. There are also parts of the rotation where your next 3-4 moves are fixed (ex: Regrowth -> SR -> Rake -> AF or Regrowth -> Rip -> Rake) due to bt constraints, so you'll be forced to drag a ooc through multiple seconds and possibly eat another proc. That would end up in a net loss in energy reduction. Is there another interaction that would be considered a nerf?

If not, you're giving up on back-to-back ooc procs in exchange for it always saving 40 energy. Feels like a QoL trade-off where any impact on dps will be more than squashed by AB rng.

the simplest solution would be to add a short ICD to clearcasting - As it stands, there will always be a couple lost procs just due to it procing faster then you can spend it due to it having the option to proc two times in under a second (<1second AA speed after all), and having a set 1 second GCD.

[Ghrell]

Please explain it to me. You only have a certain amount of energy produced for any single fight. Rip, Rake, and Moonfire use up 30, 35, and 30 energy respectively. Shred is our resource dump at 40 energy each. You should ALWAYS have the energy pooled so that you can keep up Rip, Rake, and Moonfire 24/7 - Any excess energy goes into Shred. When you are pooling energy for a Rip/Rake/Moonfire, and you get a clearcasting proc as soon as you hit those abilities, it is possible that you may overcap on energy a little bit - which, added up throughout a fight, may result in the dps loss of a few shreds. This is not even a nerf. Its akin to Resto, when blizzard started to knock low-mana cost spells off the list - First, spells like Rejuvenation, Swiftmend, and Lifebloom, all 3 of which used to be highly mana efficient, then Healing Touch, another mana efficient spell, finally reducing it all the way down to Regrowth, Resto's only non-mana efficient, but highly time-efficient spell. This is the same thing - Removing our high energy efficient abilities from the list so that the low energy efficient abilities consume more clearcasting procs - and thus, more combo points.

Ferocious Bite.
Savage Roar.
Rake (although this can, in some cases, be considered a loss).

It's not a dire change; but it's a confusing one. I'm particularly concerned about the removal of Rake and how it'll impact Cleave fights.

[Rivin]

Please explain it to me. You only have a certain amount of energy produced for any single fight. Rip, Rake, and Moonfire use up 30, 35, and 30 energy respectively. Shred is our resource dump at 40 energy each. You should ALWAYS have the energy pooled so that you can keep up Rip, Rake, and Moonfire 24/7 - Any excess energy goes into Shred. When you are pooling energy for a Rip/Rake/Moonfire, and you get a clearcasting proc as soon as you hit those abilities, it is possible that you may overcap on energy a little bit - which, added up throughout a fight, may result in the dps loss of a few shreds. This is not even a nerf. Its akin to Resto, when blizzard started to knock low-mana cost spells off the list - First, spells like Rejuvenation, Swiftmend, and Lifebloom, all 3 of which used to be highly mana efficient, then Healing Touch, another mana efficient spell, finally reducing it all the way down to Regrowth, Resto's only non-mana efficient, but highly time-efficient spell. This is the same thing - Removing our high energy efficient abilities from the list so that the low energy efficient abilities consume more clearcasting procs - and thus, more combo points.

This is exactly the problem, because in a way it's absolutely correct: it does in fact save energy over the course of a fight (in a purely single-target or pure AoE scenario, at least). Here are the problems with this change, as I see it:

1. The abilities targeted are too restrictive. If the change is meant to save energy by making only the most expensive abilities free, it missed two of the most expensive: Savage Roar (40) and Ferocious Bite (50). And while Omen currently only cuts the cost of FB in half, that reduction is still significant (see below).

2. In multi-target situations, you won't be using Shred OR Swipe, but rather spending your energy maintaining Rakes and Moonfires onto as many targets as possible. In those situations, Omen goes from being a big help when it procs to doing absolutely nothing, as it would only affect Thrash and you'd be using Thrash at set intervals regardless of Omen procs with either version.

3. The new restriction increases the potential chance of losing procs. Because it procs off auto-attacks, and Feral auto-attacks very quickly, it's entirely possible that a proc under the new restriction could be sit waiting for a significant period of time while you're doing other things, causing additional procs to be lost. The current proc would be used up very quickly in almost any situation, making the potential for lost procs very small by comparison.

4. It reduces the fluidity of Feral's gameplay. When the current Omen procs, it feels really good, because it allows you to immediately advance your gameplay by one ability usage, which can have many benefits. The new version does not allow for that; you must use Shred, regardless of which ability you actually needed to use next. Say for example I have five combo points and my target is within execute range. My next ability is Ferocious Bite, but I need to wait for the 50 energy to use it and I only have ~30. On live, if Omen procs, I can immediately Ferocious Bite. With the new restriction, I'd have two choices: Shred immediately and waste a combo point, or wait two seconds, Ferocious Bite, then Shred, which both feels worse gameplay-wise and also risks losing an Omen proc.

And while you're right that people should always have enough energy to use whatever it is they need to use when they need it, people aren't robots and we do make mistakes. A well-timed live Omen proc can correct a mistake; the new one cannot.

[-aiko-]

Please explain it to me.

See above for a much more thorough response (I was too late!) but more than just pure numbers it's a QoL nerf. Having an OoC proc can save you if you just had a high movement phase, or messed up the rotation and need to get something up. I know I've personally been saved by using OoC procs for SR. The nerf doesn't make sense because it doesn't address any issues that Feral had.

[Morg]

Ooc isnt worth getting upset about in fact running LI you'll end up having more free energy ovwr a fight. And every agi class is losing crit. It also helps with the thrash set bonus

If this is the entire exctent of feral changes we got lucky

[Deleted]

I think everyone is getting a 5% crit nerf.

All Agility DPS.

[Whitepaw]

I think the people discussing the OoC change might have missed the point.

This change buffs Soul of the Forrest - and nerfs Savage Roar. Running SotF, getting an OoC proc when at 5 CPs, I would typically cap energy when using a finisher (because SotF will refund 60 energy, when I use a finisher). I will have less chance doing so in the future.

On the other hand, the SR build will be more energy starved, so a nerf to that ability.

[Dysheki]

I can guarantee you this is intentional and not some oversight.

If this was intentional than why would SR not be included since it is 40 energy (the same as shred)?

[Dastreus]

I already don't play Feral because of it's garbage energy regen and low crit, but maaan, it looks like I won't be touching it this expansion. I am also dreading the 5% crit nerf to rogue, being assassination and relying on crits hurts. Blizz said they want to balance out secondary stats but this will only push people more into wanting crit for feral and rogue.