What's the point of flying half a year away from now?

[Segus1992]

As I remember it, vanilla was grindy and slow.
The only reason it was fun was because everything was fresh and new, and so were the players.
Addons were also pretty hard to get, so the game was harder. (for me, was young and not a computer wiz).
Game wasn't very well balanced, hunters running out of ammo, casters wanding bosses to death and all that. People forget the horrible things about vanilla and praise it for being so good, hmm.

People are also very smart when it comes to spotting super subtle sarcasm.

[Thimagryn]

Keep moving them goal posts.

I know, so crazy. It's like as if you're talking to a bunch of different people who all want flight for different reasons or something. Why can't they all just stick to one goal post?

[Sencha]

Yeah, instead you farmed a nearly endless supply of mats and reputation. Sounds reeeeeaaaaal better.

You still do that in every expansion.

[Hctaz]

"Nearly endless"? How about the literally endless AP farm. Or the endless WQ farm. Which, by the way, are about the most boring forms of grindiness.

In Vanilla, the grind was long, I agree, but often QUITE worth it. I understand not everyone felt the same way as I did, but saving 900g for my epic mount in Vanilla may be one of the most rewarding payoffs I've experienced in this game. The grinds were justified. Now? The game has become too much of an instant gratification because people who can only play 20mins a week feel like they need to be given special treatment, too.

There is no right or wrong, but Vanilla was better. Disagree if you like, but Vanilla was created with passion and soul. Legion and the handful of expansions that came before it are cash machines now. Not saying that's a bad model for a business, buuuuut the game isn't better for it. They've tried to please everyone and are slowly but surely failing.

The grind had nothing to do with epic mounts or gold... The grind was just for raiding. If you wanted to raid you had a nearly endless grind. At least with AP it isn't required. And world quests you only need to do 4 a day. You don't need to spend 8 hours farming mats for 3 nights of raiding.

- - - Updated - - -

You still do that in every expansion.

Not as bad in Vanilla or TBC though. You needed to farm roughly 2 hours of mats just to raid one night. It was pretty bad.

[Eleriol]

Seems the majority of people hate making an actual effort in wow these days. Its the whole serving up everything on a nice shiny and easy silver platter thats made this game worse.

[Lane]

2) You discount how imbalanced flight mechanics can be with regard to certain classes and races, NE druids being the most obvious.

Is this even still a thing? I see people in that mount you can gather in all the time.

[Deleted]

Is this even still a thing? I see people in that mount you can gather in all the time.

Those are bots.

[Elim Garak]

Seems the majority of people hate making an actual effort in wow these days. Its the whole serving up everything on a nice shiny and easy silver platter thats made this game worse.

Yeah and it all started in TBC where everyone could fly in 2.0 at level 70 (68 for druids)

[Woop Woop]

People are also very smart when it comes to spotting super subtle sarcasm.

I know, it was pretty obvious what you meant, but assuming that everyone will know your comment was sarcastic when it's written isn't a smart move either. Sarcasm and text doesn't go hand in hand.

[kary]

Yeah and it all started in TBC where everyone could fly in 2.0 at level 70 (68 for druids)

Yep. TBC was a shitty as fuck expansion, totally agree.
Flying and welfare gear. The beginning of the end (end being the entitlement you shitters flagrantly display, fwiw)

[Drusin]

Sarcasm and text doesn't go hand in hand.

That's what smileys are for

[Beckers]

I think the point is flying, I might be wrong.

[WowIsDead64]

Then why did the 90% that don't do shit complain about WoD? That's exactly what they wanted, not so? Free gear, free money, perfect, ya?

So called forum minority (and streamers, like this guy) was complaining about Garrisons - majority was complaining about terrible outdoor design, including no flying. Thing, that killed WOD - Blizzards' decision to REPLACE outdoor content with Garrisons for majority of players and to give outdoor content to narrow niche of competitive players, such as PVPers, instead of EXTENDING outdoor content with Garrisons. Yeah, another big mistake was - not to make Garrisons account wide. 2 hours a day, I needed to spend on farming 8 Garrisons - was too much even for me. But at the end Blizzard all of a sudden decided, that majority of players would enjoy UI-based Facebook game and wouldn't even need to do something else. It was big mistake, but instead of fixing it in Legion, Blizzard made thing only worse - they removed Garrisons, but refused to revert outdoor content design too. Result - I have nothing to do in Legion. Literally zero suitable content. That's why I still play WOD - enjoy Garrisons and Tanaan with flying.

[kary]

So called forum minority (and streamers, like this guy) was complaining about Garrisons - majority was complaining about terrible outdoor design, including no flying. Thing, that killed WOD - Blizzards' decision to REPLACE outdoor content with Garrisons for majority of players and to give outdoor content to narrow niche of competitive players, such as PVPers, instead of EXTENDING outdoor content with Garrisons. Yeah, another big mistake was - not to make Garrisons account wide. 2 hours a day, I needed to spend on farming 8 Garrisons - was too much even for me. But at the end Blizzard all of a sudden decided, that majority of players would enjoy UI-based Facebook game and wouldn't even need to do something else. It was big mistake, but instead of fixing it in Legion, Blizzard made thing only worse - they removed Garrisons, but refused to revert outdoor content design too. Result - I have nothing to do in Legion. Literally zero suitable content. That's why I still play WOD - enjoy Garrisons and Tanaan with flying.

"I have nothing to do in legion"

Lmao

Cry some more dude.

[ItachiZaku]

Suramar city would arguable be ruined by Flying.

They can easily just say "Today is the day! Flying is here, except Suramar (that pesky bubble!) and New End Zone X. "

[Allarius]

You guys are all sheep. Flying has been in the game since release. Just re-roll Demon Hunter and jump off of highmountain. Fly to wherever you want to go.

[Mafic]

So called forum minority (and streamers, like this guy) was complaining about Garrisons - majority was complaining about terrible outdoor design, including no flying. Thing, that killed WOD - Blizzards' decision to REPLACE outdoor content with Garrisons for majority of players and to give outdoor content to narrow niche of competitive players, such as PVPers, instead of EXTENDING outdoor content with Garrisons. Yeah, another big mistake was - not to make Garrisons account wide. 2 hours a day, I needed to spend on farming 8 Garrisons - was too much even for me. But at the end Blizzard all of a sudden decided, that majority of players would enjoy UI-based Facebook game and wouldn't even need to do something else. It was big mistake, but instead of fixing it in Legion, Blizzard made thing only worse - they removed Garrisons, but refused to revert outdoor content design too. Result - I have nothing to do in Legion. Literally zero suitable content. That's why I still play WOD - enjoy Garrisons and Tanaan with flying.

Good post.

Blizz buckled with the announcement of flying coming in 7.2 but I think it might come sooner as player activity is already dropping faster than the last half of WoD for Legion.

Broken Isles is copy pasta from previous expansions and poorly made.

[tyrlaan]

You're telling us that moving around on a road that generally doesn't even have enemies is a "Large amount" of the the playing? Is WoW now Euro-Truck Simulator, that we should be immersed in the grand adventure of traveling from point A to point B? Even when there are mobs in the way, are the dazing, dismounting trash mobs suddenly a massively more immersive and engaging experience than they've ever been, especially when they're not even in your quest area?

Wow, I'm guessing right about now your refrigerator is packed with fruit from all the cherries you picked to construct that argument.

Also, if skipping past things with flying is such a harmful effect, then why aren't people also pushing for the removal of gliding, the flight master whistle, portals, summons, and flight paths? Why does Blizzard give us consumables which allows us to avoid dazing/dismounting for hours at a time? Why can we teleport instantly to dungeons or battlegrounds from anywhere when our queue pops?

1. There's no appreciable push for the removal of flight, so not sure what comparison you're trying to draw.
2. All your examples of skipping past things are on rails, are consumed on use, or have a cooldown, hence nowhere near the same as flight (DH is somewhat of an exception but still pales to flight). Therefore suggesting flight is "no different" than what's already available is fundamentally flawed because it is very different from what's already available.
3. If flight was actually no different than what's already in the game, why exactly do you need it?

Suramar city would arguable be ruined by Flying. The entire point of the place is to figure out how to navigate around its maze-like streets and avoid getting discovered by the guards. Flying would let you skip all of that and go straight to your objective. However, consider that gliding lets you do that as well. Also consider that one of the first things that Blizzard does in Suramar is start giving you shortcuts(portals) to skip stuff you've already done. They pile onto THAT a buff that lets you avoid 90% of the hostile NPCs in the form of an "illusion".

Barring all that as "legitimate gameplay" that Blizzard intends, what happens when you go to Suramar with 850+ gear and a legendary and just ignore every intended mechanic because your iLVL lets you do it. You plow through crowds of enemies and either AOE them down at some point, drop aggro with a stealth or something, or simply keep riding until monsters leash. What is actually left for Flying to harm at that point?

I guess people don't have alts? No one has a toon that hasn't hit that gear level yet?

Also the various shortcuts provided in Suramar by Blizzard are effectively rewards for progressing the Nightfallen story arc. This is not comparable to Joe McAlterson, newly minted 110, being able to fly through the zone. Be mindful of false equivalence.

Since you have to land to do content i fail to see how getting to it faster remove any of the "playing". If you are happy to run to the same WQ spot every day then fill your boots. Just have a gander at WoD. Once you have done the same content multiple time then convenience better kick in pretty quick. It is even more pronounced in Legion with the prevalence of world quests. I know it is anecdotal but people i know who play the game are mighty sick of running back and forth to do the same thing every day.

While I certainly won't be upset when flying is in the game, I struggle to see how it's so crippling to not have it today. Between flight points, 2 (3) hearthstones, flight master's whistle, gliding, and possible extra options due to class order hall progress, I find navigating the Broken Isles to be generally quite easy. And ironically you site WQs as exacerbating the problem, but that's when you get the super handy flight whistle.

So what exactly is this convenience people are clamoring for so badly?

[SirCowdog]

Sigh....here we go again.....

Wow, I'm guessing right about now your refrigerator is packed with fruit from all the cherries you picked to construct that argument.

Did you have an actual counter-argument, or did you just ignore the fact that what you quoted there was a response to a specific point being made by Kary? He specifically referenced the ratio of getting to a quest vs actually doing a quest, and implied that travel to the quest area was relevant, which is what my response was aimed at.

1. There's no appreciable push for the removal of flight, so not sure what comparison you're trying to draw.

Wut? Did you miss ALL of WoD where Blizzard tried their best to spin, lie, and hype their way to "No-Flying Ever Again". Are you ignoring the fact that Pathfinder effectively makes flying irrelevant to anything current in the game?

The only way you could possibly think that there's no appreciable push to remove flying is if you haven't been paying attention or are choosing not to look.

2. All your examples of skipping past things are on rails, are consumed on use, or have a cooldown, hence nowhere near the same as flight (DH is somewhat of an exception but still pales to flight). Therefore suggesting flight is "no different" than what's already available is fundamentally flawed because it is very different from what's already available.

The comparison is in the end-result. The primary argument against flying is that it allows people to "skip" content, which all of the things I listed also allow you to do. So if skipping content is something to be avoided, then why is it alright for everything else to do that while flying is singled out as the only one that is, supposedly, harmful to the game?

You seem to be suggesting that Flying would be perfectly fine if it had some form of cooldown. This is one solution that has been suggested several times by multiple people, along with other suggestions on how to make flying a little less powerful. My personal favorite is giving flying charges that slowly refill(similar to other abilities that use the same mechanic) in order to prevent the "Helicopter" effect.

Regardless, that is not within the scope of the arguments people are making against flying. They are promoting it's complete removal or delay until it's no longer relevant. I'm all in favor of discussing a middle ground where the mechanic of flying are changed and adapted to the current state of the game, but that's not what Anti-Flight people are pushing for with their posts.

3. If flight was actually no different than what's already in the game, why exactly do you need it?

It depends largely on what part of "Already in the Game" you're speaking of. Gliding+Emerald Winds? Flight paths? Dazing? Dismounting? Teleporting? Be more specific. Also, please consider that I'm not suggesting that these things should replace flying. But instead that if they accomplish the same results, then what arguments are there for the continued restriction flying?

This is not about needing something. Obviously the game is not falling apart as we speak simply because flying isn't available. This has always been about wanting flying because it's fun. It's about wanting the option to not have to constantly slog through the ground "content" that has already been cleared multiple times in the course of leveling. It's about wanting the freedom to choose how to approach the content instead of only being able to play one, highly limited way.

I guess people don't have alts? No one has a toon that hasn't hit that gear level yet?

Also the various shortcuts provided in Suramar by Blizzard are effectively rewards for progressing the Nightfallen story arc. This is not comparable to Joe McAlterson, newly minted 110, being able to fly through the zone. Be mindful of false equivalence.

Again, you need to pay attention to the context of the point I was making. The primary argument against flight is that it trivializes or skips content. What I was getting at with the paragraphs you quoted is that flying is not the only thing which does that. The illusion buff in Suramar allows you to trivialize and skip the guards. Portals that you unlock allow you to trivialize and skip traveling through otherwise hostile areas. High iLVL allows you to trivialize and skip virtually all of the threat of the mobs, either by riding past and leashing, or simple AOE.

This doesn't even take into account race or class specific ways to drop aggro.

So....flying is restricted in order to prevent the skipping or trivialization of content like Suramar. So why isn't the same being done to other tools and mechanics which do the same thing? Where is the logic? Where is the consistency?

You say that shortcuts in Suramar are "effectively rewards for progressing". So why not have flying be the same kind of reward? Are portals in Suramar time-locked until a year after the expansion launched. Do you not get to use your 850+ equipment or legendary until the "halfway through the expansion" date passes, even though you've already looted it?

While I certainly won't be upset when flying is in the game, I struggle to see how it's so crippling to not have it today. Between flight points, 2 (3) hearthstones, flight master's whistle, gliding, and possible extra options due to class order hall progress, I find navigating the Broken Isles to be generally quite easy. And ironically you site WQs as exacerbating the problem, but that's when you get the super handy flight whistle.

So what exactly is this convenience people are clamoring for so badly?

Again, this is not about some crippling, game-breaking problem. It's about enjoyment and having the CHOICE to fly if we want to, because that's a choice we've had in the past. It's about pointing out the bullshit idea that Flying is harmful to the game when there are multiple tools which accomplish almost everything that flying does. It's about looking at the state of the game and recognizing that there is little to no reason NOT to give players flying if that's how they want to play.

[tyrlaan]

Did you have an actual counter-argument, or did you just ignore the fact that what you quoted there was a response to a specific point being made by Kary? He specifically referenced the ratio of getting to a quest vs actually doing a quest, and implied that travel to the quest area was relevant, which is what my response was aimed at.

That... doesn't discount my statement that you were cherry picking... but okay sure.

Wut? Did you miss ALL of WoD where Blizzard tried their best to spin, lie, and hype their way to "No-Flying Ever Again". Are you ignoring the fact that Pathfinder effectively makes flying irrelevant to anything current in the game?

The only way you could possibly think that there's no appreciable push to remove flying is if you haven't been paying attention or are choosing not to look.

To clarify, I meant there is no appreciable push from "players" since I presume the only point in arguing about flight on mmo-champ is to argue with players.

I agree that Blizzards' intentions are a different ballgame entirely.

You seem to be suggesting that Flying would be perfectly fine if it had some form of cooldown. This is one solution that has been suggested several times by multiple people, along with other suggestions on how to make flying a little less powerful. My personal favorite is giving flying charges that slowly refill(similar to other abilities that use the same mechanic) in order to prevent the "Helicopter" effect.

Regardless, that is not within the scope of the arguments people are making against flying. They are promoting it's complete removal or delay until it's no longer relevant. I'm all in favor of discussing a middle ground where the mechanic of flying are changed and adapted to the current state of the game, but that's not what Anti-Flight people are pushing for with their posts.

That wasn't really my intent, but sure that's a reasonable notion. I'll come back to my intent in a minute.

It depends largely on what part of "Already in the Game" you're speaking of. Gliding+Emerald Winds? Flight paths? Dazing? Dismounting? Teleporting? Be more specific. Also, please consider that I'm not suggesting that these things should replace flying. But instead that if they accomplish the same results, then what arguments are there for the continued restriction flying?

I'm speaking of your list. I don't have to be more specific, you already did that for me. But you did answer my question, at least from your personal perspective, in your next paragraph.

This is not about needing something. Obviously the game is not falling apart as we speak simply because flying isn't available. This has always been about wanting flying because it's fun. It's about wanting the option to not have to constantly slog through the ground "content" that has already been cleared multiple times in the course of leveling. It's about wanting the freedom to choose how to approach the content instead of only being able to play one, highly limited way.

This just suggests you are more level headed than others, since I've seen plenty of people frothing at the mouth due to lack of flying, claiming they will unsub because there's no flying, etc.

Again, you need to pay attention to the context of the point I was making. The primary argument against flight is that it trivializes or skips content.

Coming back to my intent. I'm not arguing whether it trivializes content. I'm coming from a different angle. Instead of arguing why it shouldn't be added or should be delayed or whatever, I'm asking why should it be added or not delayed or whatever.

I'm not talking about why flying is bad, I want to know why flying is so good/necessary that people flip out over it's absence.

You say that shortcuts in Suramar are "effectively rewards for progressing". So why not have flying be the same kind of reward? the expansion" date passes, even though you've already looted it?

Seems completely reasonable to me, but I'm sure people will flip out if they have to jump through the same hoops for each toon to get flight.

Again, this is not about some crippling, game-breaking problem. It's about enjoyment and having the CHOICE to fly if we want to, because that's a choice we've had in the past. It's about pointing out the bullshit idea that Flying is harmful to the game when there are multiple tools which accomplish almost everything that flying does.

For you, it's not a game-breaking problem, which is cool. I do think though, that with all your arguments, there's still sufficient evidence that flying would best be served to be gated behind something or have cooldowns or whatnot. I'd say your middle-ground suggestions are quite reasonable, but previously cited mouth-frothers probably disagree.