What made classic wow better than current?

[Relapses]

Yes, and because you was exposed to more positive memories back in time

Careful, you're describing nostalgia and we all know this concept doesn't exist when talking about Vanilla WoW.

[Akka]

I mean fuck, I'm not even strictly arguing against Legacy... I'm arguing against the seemingly endless waves of shitty arguments pro-Legacy supporters make to try convincing people their movement is more important than it actually is.

One thing that definitely shows is just how you massively go against the arguments of one side over the other, that's true.
If only you spent even one-quarter of the same energy to fight the shitty anti-Vanilla arguments too, maybe I would take you more seriously.

Careful, you're describing nostalgia and we all know this concept doesn't exist when talking about Vanilla WoW.

^ case in point.
For all your pompous speech of being the Voice of Reason, you manage to defend the most retarded anti-Vanilla argument, and to top this you manage to defend it when it's used to just trying to apply the most stupid version of itself as a whole over everything in the world.

I have nothing against Legacy. I believe Blizzard should make official servers but only after they've finished the retail storyline and have moved onto new projects. (Many "anti-Legacy" folks are labeled as such for sharing my perspective.) On the other hand, the people arguing loudest for Blizzard to make them right fucking now represent a very small, yet extremely vocal portion of the community.

So what ? First you have no idea about their numbers (the "vocal minority" is such a tired meme I roll my eyes at the mere mention of it, whatever the side using it), second why shouldn't they ask what they want, and third why your opinion should take over their ? You act as if you were granting some peasant a favor ("look how magnanimous I am, I would even lower myself to agree with you once I have had what I want !"), do you expect cheering for your generosity ?

[Relapses]

One thing that definitely shows is just how you massively go against the arguments of one side over the other, that's true.
If only you spent even one-quarter of the same energy to fight the shitty anti-Vanilla arguments too, maybe I would take you more seriously.

So what ? First you have no idea about their numbers (the "vocal minority" is such a tired meme I roll my eyes at the mere mention of it, whatever the side using it), second why shouldn't they ask what they want, and third why your opinion should take over their ? You act as if you were granting some peasant a favor ("look how magnanimous I am, I would even lower myself to agree with you once I have had what I want !"), do you expect cheering for your generosity ?

It is a vocal minority just as my perspective arguing against it is a vocal minority. Forum communities are a vocal minority. They do not represent the majority of players' opinions because a majority of players don't bother posting on them. Or even reading them.

But the problem with the pro-Legacy movement is that its supporters have a reason to be active on communities because they want something to happen. The people who support Legacy are far more likely to create forum accounts and participate in these discussions because they have something on the line. The entire movement has a built-in martyr complex because Blizzard has a legal precedent to shut down private realm communities which look to emulate a version of the game that's no longer available to play. The issue I have is when pro-Legacy supporters use their "power in numbers" to transcribe their minority opinion onto the countless people who don't bother to participate in these discussions. I see it happening every time this subject is discussed and I just can't believe that to be the case. People are far more likely to simply not care than they are to feel as strong as the pro-Legacy group does about the game.

Regardless, at the end of the day, I personally feel the discussion is far more productive when you look at it from a wider scope than what you see here on forums. That's the scope Blizzard looks at it when they make the decision about whether they will pursue Legacy. And when you look at it from that position, it's far easier to understand why Blizzard hasn't made Legacy servers already.

[Echo of Soul]

It is a vocal minority just as my perspective arguing against it is a vocal minority. Forum communities are a vocal minority. They do not represent the majority of players' opinions because a majority of players don't bother posting on them. Or even reading them.

It's one vocal minority arguing with another vocal minority which flavor of ice cream is the best.

[Relapses]

It's one vocal minority arguing with another vocal minority which flavor of ice cream is the best.

I think I've actually used this exact analogy a few times when discussing this topic.

[Deleted]

It's one vocal minority arguing with another vocal minority which flavor of ice cream is the best.

Anyone who says chocolate, is experiencing nostalgia

[Akka]

It is a vocal minority just as my perspective arguing against it is a vocal minority. Forum communities are a vocal minority. They do not represent the majority of players' opinions because a majority of players don't bother posting on them. Or even reading them.

That's a pretty lame cop-out here.

But the problem with the pro-Legacy movement is that its supporters have a reason to be active on communities because they want something to happen. The people who support Legacy are far more likely to create forum accounts and participate in these discussions because they have something on the line. The entire movement has a built-in martyr complex because Blizzard has a legal precedent to shut down private realm communities which look to emulate a version of the game that's no longer available to play. The issue I have is when pro-Legacy supporters use their "power in numbers" to transcribe their minority opinion onto the countless people who don't bother to participate in these discussions. I see it happening every time this subject is discussed and I just can't believe that to be the case. People are far more likely to simply not care than they are to feel as strong as the pro-Legacy group does about the game.

So people who want something to happen, might be more vocal than those who don't. Okay. I can get behind this reasoning.
But I don't see what's the problem here, nor what should warrant this self-appointed crusade against them.

Regardless, at the end of the day, I personally feel the discussion is far more productive when you look at it from a wider scope than what you see here on forums. That's the scope Blizzard looks at it when they make the decision about whether they will pursue Legacy. And when you look at it from that position, it's far easier to understand why Blizzard hasn't made Legacy servers already.

And what is "productive" in this context ? Because yeah, I can totally see lots of reasons why Blizzard doesn't do legacy servers, but it's not about the customers to bother about that (beyond being somewhat reasonable). I'm not playing WoW to benefit Blizzard, I'm their customer not their benefactor. I'd like to have retail go back to legacy design because I found it much much much more fun, but they won't do that, so I'd like to have legacy servers as the poor man's alternative.
It seems you're confusing customers with shareholders here.

[Kyanion]

Well the reasons for this are many. CRZ, name changes, level boosts and just plain fast leveling. If leveling your character requires about 200 hours and you can't rename it, move it and there are no shortcuts you're gonna see a lot of the same people around. There won't be as many alts because you've invested a lot into your main character and don't really have time to do it all again.

You started this thread with the intent to do some research, correct? Then go do this research. Go and LEARN when they put in server transfers from overpopulated realms to small or new servers and THEN go and learn when they put in paid server transfers. I'll give you a hint, BOTH happened in Vanilla. So you CAN rename it, you CAN move it and there were shortcuts to get away from a bad reputation or a poor server.

And the 'not as many alts' thing is just speculation. Many people never even hit max level in Vanilla and just made multiple alts and derped around doing whatever they wanted. You seem just like the many 'new Vanilla' players that talk about raiding and dungeons as if that is all the Vanilla playing population did. They didn't. Blizzard even talked about the amount of people that actually did end game things a long time ago, so you'll have to go do some research to find it.

- - - Updated - - -

One thing that definitely shows is just how you massively go against the arguments of one side over the other, that's true.
If only you spent even one-quarter of the same energy to fight the shitty anti-Vanilla arguments too, maybe I would take you more seriously.

^ case in point.
For all your pompous speech of being the Voice of Reason, you manage to defend the most retarded anti-Vanilla argument, and to top this you manage to defend it when it's used to just trying to apply the most stupid version of itself as a whole over everything in the world.

So what ? First you have no idea about their numbers (the "vocal minority" is such a tired meme I roll my eyes at the mere mention of it, whatever the side using it), second why shouldn't they ask what they want, and third why your opinion should take over their ? You act as if you were granting some peasant a favor ("look how magnanimous I am, I would even lower myself to agree with you once I have had what I want !"), do you expect cheering for your generosity ?

Do you just ignore any of the completely stupid statements and arguments some of the pro-Legacy people make? Because trust me, I've seen some stupid shit Anti-Legacy people have said and even called them on it. You don't seem to realize the shit-flinging is happening on both sides of the fence.

[Relapses]

That's a pretty lame cop-out here.

It's what forums are, always have been and always will be. It's not exclusive to WoW, either. League of Legend's subreddit is notorious for the same type of flawed reasoning. "Everybody's Challenger."

So people who want something to happen, might be more vocal than those who don't. Okay. I can get behind this reasoning.
But I don't see what's the problem here, nor what should warrant this self-appointed crusade against them.

It's not a self-appointed crusade. But I think there's a portion of players who participate in these discussions who'd like nothing more than to, for lack of a better phrase, wax nostalgic about the perceived greatness of Vanilla WoW without being "interrupted" by posters with dissenting viewpoints. You needn't look further than the very title of this thread to see evidence of this.

And what is "productive" in this context ? Because yeah, I can totally see lots of reasons why Blizzard doesn't do legacy servers, but it's not about the customers to bother about that (beyond being somewhat reasonable). I'm not playing WoW to benefit Blizzard, I'm their customer not their benefactor. I'd like to have retail go back to legacy design because I found it much much much more fun, but they won't do that, so I'd like to have legacy servers as the poor man's alternative.
It seems you're confusing customers with shareholders here.

When Blizzard makes huge decisions like the implementation of Legacy servers, they're answering to shareholders not consumers. I get wanting to have a "poor man's alternative" to a game that's no longer available but it's kind of weird how pro-Legacy supporters like to make this argument in a vacuum where a non-official version of this "poor man's alternative" doesn't already exist (and isn't free, to boot).

[Kyanion]

It is a vocal minority just as my perspective arguing against it is a vocal minority. Forum communities are a vocal minority. They do not represent the majority of players' opinions because a majority of players don't bother posting on them. Or even reading them.

But the problem with the pro-Legacy movement is that its supporters have a reason to be active on communities because they want something to happen. The people who support Legacy are far more likely to create forum accounts and participate in these discussions because they have something on the line.

And that is what Akka and the many others don't understand or rather don't want to acknowledge. These people want official Vanilla realms to go online and so they try to do their best to bang the drum and make noise and get attention. In the middle is the massive amount of people that do not care at all about Vanilla happening or not. They play the game that is out or stop playing it and do something else. They don't give a shit about the cause and don't view forums or sites like mmo-champ. And lastly is the Anti-Legacy people which don't want Vanilla to happen for various reasons that aren't worth getting into again.

[Ayania]

Well the reasons for this are many. CRZ, name changes, level boosts and just plain fast leveling. If leveling your character requires about 200 hours and you can't rename it, move it and there are no shortcuts you're gonna see a lot of the same people around. There won't be as many alts because you've invested a lot into your main character and don't really have time to do it all again.

Yeah, those all make perfect sense I agree.

The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

I have no delusions that WoW will ever become what I listed, that's why I said WTB a MMO.

[Echocho]

You started this thread with the intent to do some research, correct? Then go do this research. Go and LEARN when they put in server transfers from overpopulated realms to small or new servers and THEN go and learn when they put in paid server transfers. I'll give you a hint, BOTH happened in Vanilla. So you CAN rename it, you CAN move it and there were shortcuts to get away from a bad reputation or a poor server.

I'm not saying it didn't, I'm just suggesting reasons as to why he might not feel as connected to the player characters on his realm.

[Kyanion]

So people who want something to happen, might be more vocal than those who don't. Okay. I can get behind this reasoning.
But I don't see what's the problem here, nor what should warrant this self-appointed crusade against them.

Most of my hatred towards them has come from the bullshit arguments they use to try and support this 'movement'. Some of them haven't played WoW in years and don't give a fuck what happens to retail now or in the future as long as Blizzard gives them what they want. You should have seen the now closed thread when it first got started and just how insane some of those people were.

[Madscientist]

And that is what Akka and the many others don't understand or rather don't want to acknowledge. These people want official Vanilla realms to go online and so they try to do their best to bang the drum and make noise and get attention. In the middle is the massive amount of people that do not care at all about Vanilla happening or not. They play the game that is out or stop playing it and do something else. They don't give a shit about the cause and don't view forums or sites like mmo-champ. And lastly is the Anti-Legacy people which don't want Vanilla to happen for various reasons that aren't worth getting into again.

They really don't even know what they want. In private server forums they claim now that they don't want official legacy because of this recent event that happened to one of those servers yet they are still here.

[Relapses]

Most of my hatred towards them has come from the bullshit arguments they use to try and support this 'movement'. Some of them haven't played WoW in years and don't give a fuck what happens to retail now or in the future as long as Blizzard gives them what they want. You should have seen the now closed thread when it first got started and just how insane some of those people were.

I wonder where all the people who were arguing so heavily in favor of a certain PS went... Hm. Guess they just moved on from the discussion.

[Kyanion]

They really don't even know what they want.

Of course they don't. The problem lies with the Pandora's Box issue as well. They won't or couldn't all agree what type of Vanilla they'd want or how it would work but they all agree they want it and want it now! They are like a mob all screaming and yelling for different things. What I mean about Pandora's Box would be these types of questions if Blizzard ever announced they'd make these realms:
What patch would it start on? Fresh as if it was the very first launch day? Why 1.12?
Will there be class balancing issues? If not why? I want to be a hybrid that isn't forced to heal. I want to tank but not be a warrior.
Will there be bug fixes? Why not? Why?
Can we have some of the quality of life changes in modern WoW? Why not?

And so on. And one of the problems of this is that private servers aren't going to go away so if Blizzard makes Legacy happen and people aren't happy with it they'll not play it and Blizz would lose money/face. My main concern is that somehow Legacy realms being an epic failure would impact retail and that is what I don't want.

- - - Updated - - -

Guess they just moved on from the discussion.

Maybe they moved on to reddit or something to have never ending circle-jerks about how great it is to stand around Stormwind or Orgrimmar and have people inspect their shoulder armor or some such nonsense.

[Akka]

It's what forums are, always have been and always will be. It's not exclusive to WoW, either. League of Legend's subreddit is notorious for the same type of flawed reasoning. "Everybody's Challenger."

That's the whole reason I say it's a lame cop-out. By definition there is no discussion place which involves everyone, so by definition it's always a minority. So you're, as we say here, just ramming an open door.

It's not a self-appointed crusade. But I think there's a portion of players who participate in these discussions who'd like nothing more than to, for lack of a better phrase, wax nostalgic about the perceived greatness of Vanilla WoW without being "interrupted" by posters with dissenting viewpoints. You needn't look further than the very title of this thread to see evidence of this.

And you need not look further than this very thread to notice there is about ten times more circle-jerking from anti-Vanilla people, and one hundred times more mindless drones who will repeat "nostalgiaaaaaa" even when facing arguments which are objectively completely unrelated to nostalgia - if you wish to wage a crusade against the most stupid arguments, you've really chosen the wrong side.

When Blizzard makes huge decisions like the implementation of Legacy servers, they're answering to shareholders not consumers.

And it's not our problem, again. That's my whole point and you seem to have missed it. We've not some ethical duty to like whatever Blizzard throws at us or to chide ourselves for wanting something else. Our only loyalties should be toward our own preference, and our only duty should be to be intellectually honest and somewhat reasonable.
Blizzard wants feedback, my feedback is "your design sucks since WotLK, I liked pre-WotLK design better". There is enough people thinking like me to make a lot of noise. Why shouldn't we ?

I get wanting to have a "poor man's alternative" to a game that's no longer available but it's kind of weird how pro-Legacy supporters like to make this argument in a vacuum where a non-official version of this "poor man's alternative" doesn't already exist (and isn't free, to boot).

Either you've added a bit too much negatives in this sentence, or it's too convoluted for my english, because it makes absolutely no sense to me.

[Redroniksre]

I was hoping the discussion would die down for their own sake. If they don't want their Private Servers getting shut down, then they need to learn how to just play and shut up. I used to love the Private Server community but the whole Nost incident is like digging the ugly side out and putting it on a plate.

[Kyanion]

And you need not look further than this very thread to notice there is about ten times more circle-jerking and one hundred times more mindless drones who will repeat "nostalgiaaaaaa" even when facing arguments which are objectively completely unrelated to nostalgia - if you wish to wage a crusade against the most stupid arguments, you've really chosen the wrong side.

Well look at the thread title and the OP's post. Then look at the amount of different people that have come into this thread and used the nostalgia line. There might be something to it. I personally don't think it is solely nostalgia though some people want Vanilla for that very reason. But you can't dismiss the nostalgia angle to this either. Some people want Vanilla for nostalgia, some want to play it for the first time, some want a slow level grind and to take a long time progressing a character and so on. I get it. Do you? Because I don't believe you do when you hand-wave away the nostalgia part of it.

[Deleted]

Well look at the thread title and the OP's post. Then look at the amount of different people that have come into this thread and used the nostalgia line. There might be something to it. I personally don't think it is solely nostalgia though some people want Vanilla for that very reason. But you can't dismiss the nostalgia angle to this either. Some people want Vanilla for nostalgia, some want to play it for the first time, some want a slow level grind and to take a long time progressing a character and so on. I get it. Do you? Because I don't believe you do when you hand-wave away the nostalgia part of it.

Nostalgia gets u to go back to a certain game or place, but not to stay there. U dont play a game for hunderds of hours just because of nostalgia.
I guess ppl liking different games us just an impossible thing, and having a good conversation about our different tastes is even more impossible.
And the idea that u can like both games but prefer the other is just unheard off.
But this is mostly #Mmo-champion things. If this wasnt good entertainment i would just stick to the other forums