Legion - Outlaw Discussion

[Lustrick]

Reading over the loaded dice trait again, I guess you can continue to get your good roll for AR/DB. Since there's no set duration and it says your next roll, once your good buffs fall off, you have a good chance of maintaining your dps - at least 2 buffs or more on that next roll.
But there's still time to provide feedback so we'll see.

On the other hand I think something to discuss is the sabermetrics trait. I dabble with SnD every now and then, and with all the energy regen you have, you are putting out a lot of saber slashes. Saber slash evens out with my RT damage even with 3 Fate's Thirst relics. There's no need for Fatebringer with SnD. Haven't tested any other relics since you have to permanently destroy them but... yeah..
Sabermetrics increasing crit damge of saber slash by up to 40% or more? That could be huge for SnD builds.

On a side note, I think I remember Blizz saying artifacts will be destroyed by next expansion so I'm wondering if all these traits that are literally making the builds work will be built in or if our specs are just going to be remade.. again..

[Demeia]

Reading over the loaded dice trait again, I guess you can continue to get your good roll for AR/DB. Since there's no set duration and it says your next roll, once your good buffs fall off, you have a good chance of maintaining your dps - at least 2 buffs or more on that next roll.
But there's still time to provide feedback so we'll see.

On the other hand I think something to discuss is the sabermetrics trait. I dabble with SnD every now and then, and with all the energy regen you have, you are putting out a lot of saber slashes. Saber slash evens out with my RT damage even with 3 Fate's Thirst relics. There's no need for Fatebringer with SnD. Haven't tested any other relics since you have to permanently destroy them but... yeah..
Sabermetrics increasing crit damge of saber slash by up to 40% or more? That could be huge for SnD builds.

On a side note, I think I remember Blizz saying artifacts will be destroyed by next expansion so I'm wondering if all these traits that are literally making the builds work will be built in or if our specs are just going to be remade.. again..

I'm sure they'll fiddle around in some way with Roll the bones---the condemnation from the community is fairly load and almost total. It's particularly vexing to me since I really felt they hit the nail on the head with pistol shot and between the eyes... I thought they sounded dumb but they are sure wonderful for rogues in practice. But those two skills really make our rotation feel nice. Never would have thought it.

I'm actually a bit stunned that they used the phase "loaded dice". I don't pretend that I had anything to do with that, not really, but it was a point that I kept making in feedback: that if rogues were "rolling dice, we would roll loaded dice; cheating is our class fantasy, it's how we compete with people who can throw fire from their hands and summon demons." I surely couldn't have been the only one using that language but maybe the devs were listening to us after all.

[Deleted]

I think that instead of adrenaline rush or vanish, loaded dice should work while stealthed. That way you could roll it from stealth when opening and use vanish to do it again

[CHONGWHO]

Outlaw noob here, trying to get gud. Have bracers and shoulders. Think I have the rotation generally worked out for ST (although there is a fair bit going on, so find myself energy and CP capping at times)

Just a question around AoE cleave with BF. Obviously trying to target low health mobs to get MfD up as much as possible, but just generally cleaving, should I ignore BtE/blunderbuss with greenskins proc etc and just SS/RT the shit out of everything?

Also, if I’m at 15% haste, and Simc is saying its still just behind vers as my best secondary, am I doing something wrong? My haste % seems very high already compared to other rogues. I am blackfÿre on frostmourne if anyone wanted to check.

[Scatterblack]

Outlaw noob here, trying to get gud. Have bracers and shoulders. Think I have the rotation generally worked out for ST (although there is a fair bit going on, so find myself energy and CP capping at times)

Just a question around AoE cleave with BF. Obviously trying to target low health mobs to get MfD up as much as possible, but just generally cleaving, should I ignore BtE/blunderbuss with greenskins proc etc and just SS/RT the shit out of everything?

Also, if I’m at 15% haste, and Simc is saying its still just behind vers as my best secondary, am I doing something wrong? My haste % seems very high already compared to other rogues. I am blackfÿre on frostmourne if anyone wanted to check.

I'd guess that you don't have Alacrity as a talent if it wants you to get more haste. Yes in AoE situations you want to use Run Through because Blunderbuss doesn't AoE. Ideally with low health mobs you'll be MfD/RT MfD/RT constantly.

[Axenos]

Hey, out of curiosity, would you guys use Sephuz or Prydaz for M+ as Outlaw?

For raids definitely Prydaz, but given that in M+ you can keep it rolling 30% of the time on trash I wonder if it pulls ahead? My other legendary is the Ravenholdt ring, if that matters.

Also just from a dps viewpoint, I don't have any trouble surviving in M+ as a rogue, even when we run 15s. And my healer is good.

[Deleted]

Hey, out of curiosity, would you guys use Sephuz or Prydaz for M+ as Outlaw?

For raids definitely Prydaz, but given that in M+ you can keep it rolling 30% of the time on trash I wonder if it pulls ahead? My other legendary is the Ravenholdt ring, if that matters.

Also just from a dps viewpoint, I don't have any trouble surviving in M+ as a rogue, even when we run 15s. And my healer is good.

Sephuz is really nice in M+ as Outlaw considering you can Gouge to proc it for free and even get a CP out of it. And most bosses have something you can interrupt to proc it as well. I'd use it over Cinidaria, so I'd use it over Prydaz too for sure.

[Scatterblack]

Hey, out of curiosity, would you guys use Sephuz or Prydaz for M+ as Outlaw?

For raids definitely Prydaz, but given that in M+ you can keep it rolling 30% of the time on trash I wonder if it pulls ahead? My other legendary is the Ravenholdt ring, if that matters.

Also just from a dps viewpoint, I don't have any trouble surviving in M+ as a rogue, even when we run 15s. And my healer is good.

Prydaz is our very worst. So Sephuz.

[CHONGWHO]

I'd guess that you don't have Alacrity as a talent if it wants you to get more haste. .

Thanks for the response. Isn't Alacrity what i want for that talent level?

[Edlarel]

I think that instead of adrenaline rush or vanish, loaded dice should work while stealthed. That way you could roll it from stealth when opening and use vanish to do it again

I like this. It also gives a better fantasy that you're setting the dice up ahead of time, rather than throwing them out and hoping for the best.

[Javanface]

I like this. It also gives a better fantasy that you're setting the dice up ahead of time, rather than throwing them out and hoping for the best.

Have it work from stealth, and always give TB+1 (or even TB+SiW). Also remove vanish from being affected by TB to break the feedback loop this would create. Gives us a strong opener and a bit of control over our dps. Should also make it easier to balance Outlaw when a few of the buffs are known during a given fight.

Though I still think that they are taking the wrong route with this. I reckon they should:
1. Make TB a golden trait to replace Blurred Time
2. Make up another buff to take TB's place in RtB.
3. Nerf TB to 1s/CP
4. Remake our new golden trait.

The root issue is that TB is so much stronger than any other buff at this point. I think it would be more fun if the buffs were engaging and made you for example switch playstyle (regardless of bracers) to using pistol shot and BtE over SS and RT for the duration which I believe was part of the design intent from the start. Now it's just a matter of how slow your rotation is going to be which doesn't feel very engaging.

[Xanatu]

Have it work from stealth, and always give TB+1 (or even TB+SiW). Also remove vanish from being affected by TB to break the feedback loop this would create. Gives us a strong opener and a bit of control over our dps. Should also make it easier to balance Outlaw when a few of the buffs are known during a given fight.

Though I still think that they are taking the wrong route with this. I reckon they should:
1. Make TB a golden trait to replace Blurred Time
2. Make up another buff to take TB's place in RtB.
3. Nerf TB to 1s/CP
4. Remake our new golden trait.

The root issue is that TB is so much stronger than any other buff at this point. I think it would be more fun if the buffs were engaging and made you for example switch playstyle (regardless of bracers) to using pistol shot and BtE over SS and RT for the duration which I believe was part of the design intent from the start. Now it's just a matter of how slow your rotation is going to be which doesn't feel very engaging.

I feel like everyone agrees that TB has become too powerful to be a random chance buff. You can't play without it. We're talking 300k DPS swings with good TB vs little to no TB. Especially with the BIS legendaries (shoulders/wrists) you only roll for TB. It's getting absurd. We need to do whatever it takes to bake in a weaker TB to the class.

[Scatterblack]

Thanks for the response. Isn't Alacrity what i want for that talent level?

Yes it is. I just meant that you must have simmed without Alacrity for it to make your Haste so high of a priority. Everytime I sim Outlaw with Alacrity Haste is the lowest valued secondary stat by a large margin because Alacrity is 100% uptime on single target boss fights.

[Xanatu]

Yes it is. I just meant that you must have simmed without Alacrity for it to make your Haste so high of a priority. Everytime I sim Outlaw with Alacrity Haste is the lowest valued secondary stat by a large margin because Alacrity is 100% uptime on single target boss fights.

When I was ~892 haste was my 2nd strongest stat because I had eye of command + chest and had >10k crit. Weird things happen. You probably need a certain amount of haste for simc to be happy.

[Hodag]

SLICIN N' DICIN!

Hey all. Ran NH N 1-10 last night. Here are my thoughts with SnD. I am ilvl 874 with legendary gloves and I do not have my 34th trait. So, pretty much take my parses and add 8-10% on top of it if I were to have the extra 5% damage. I am including what I believe would be the theoretical parse if I did have that trait in parenthesis.

Skorp: Didn't log (our logger was late, and we forgot). Worked well, but with how quick the adds die in Normal, not going to get great numbers. Will be more beneficial in Heroic.

Chron: 78% (~85%) with 374 parses. Pretty good fight for SnD. I recommend taking grappling hook to get to add quickly. Use feint to stand in the bad and ignore mechanics as usual.

Trilliax: 83% (90%~) with 341 parses. I'm not sure why I went with SnD on this fight, as it's obviously better suited for Assassination. Regardless, still competed and performed well within the bracket. Nothing of note with this boss. It's pretty faceroll.

Spellblade: 88% (95%~) with 418 parses. This fight is pretty awesome for SnD. Zero set-up when adds come, and you can focus on mechanics (especially important in Heroic and Mythic), while still pumping out reliable DPS.

Krosus: I switched to Assassination. Personally, if you want to main outlaw, I believe there are certain fights where you just gotta face the music. This is one. But, if you want to stick it out, I honestly believe SnD could be beneficial as this is a pure DPS check. If you have a bad pull with terrible RNG with RtB, it could cost a wipe. But, as it stands, this boss is incredibly easy, so probably won't matter.

Star Augur: See Krosus. Although, I could see some opportunity for cheesing adds in his final phase -- but, I'm not about to suggest that on a purely DPS race at the end.

Tich: 76% (90%) with 176 parses. I increased the potential parse for this one because our add phase in the middle was poorly done. If you can coordinate all the adds in the middle, you can blow them up. Remember to position yourself roughly in the center of the pack, as Blade Flurry emanates from you, not your target. Grappling Hook is good if you want to follow the adds that spawn and blade flurry them then shoot back, or you can take acrobatic strikes for the add phase. In the end, I think it'll end up being a wash (with Grappling Hook coming out ahead once your group gets positioning down). PRO TIP: Use Cloak of Shadows to completely ignore his channel.

High Botanist: I went AFK to switch my laundry. Woops. Would be a fantastic fight for SnD, though, and I can't wait to try it out.

Grand Magistrix: See Krosus and Star Augur. Speed buff is rad.

Gul'Dan: So, I went Assassination on this one after looking at logs. But...I'm not convinced. With the Eyes and the three adds that are up, I can definitely see some moments where Outlaw (and, with this post, SnD) can shine. PRO TIP: Use Cloak of Shadows to negate hellfire and keep your damage buff if you want to avoid mechanics (which a good rogue would want to do because mechanics are for plebs).

So, yea, those are my thoughts. Yes, I know I did this on normal. Yes, I know an "elite" player can game RtB fairly consistently to try to get those 95%+ parses all the time. I am not saying SnD is better than RtB. It is not. I am merely posting this to let everyone know that in a real raid environment, it is practical -- even more practical, in some cases depending on how your raid is doing. Also, it's pretty hard to F it up, hence the higher parses.


Logs

Cheers,

Iagoe

[Scatterblack]

I feel like everyone agrees that TB has become too powerful to be a random chance buff. You can't play without it. We're talking 300k DPS swings with good TB vs little to no TB. Especially with the BIS legendaries (shoulders/wrists) you only roll for TB. It's getting absurd. We need to do whatever it takes to bake in a weaker TB to the class.

I feel like we had a cooldown reduction at one point. Seem to remember Adrenaline Rush being possible down to 30s at one point. Maybe it was a specific tier set bonus. Agree that we need some sort of mini True Bearing baked in.

- - - Updated - - -

SLICIN N' DICIN!

Hey all. Ran NH N 1-10 last night. Here are my thoughts with SnD. I am ilvl 874 with legendary gloves and I do not have my 34th trait. So, pretty much take my parses and add 8-10% on top of it if I were to have the extra 5% damage. I am including what I believe would be the theoretical parse if I did have that trait in parenthesis.

Logs

Cheers,

Iagoe

What legendaries did you use with SnD setup (logs blocked from work). I personally am using Bracers and Gloves and seeing good results in Nighthold with tons of opportunities for Blade Flurry to shine with the Gloves. I like the balance of Bracers for single target boost and Gloves for the AoE boost. I'd switch the Gloves to Ring if it ever dropped for me.

[Hodag]

What legendaries did you use with SnD setup (logs blocked from work). I personally am using Bracers and Gloves and seeing good results in Nighthold with tons of opportunities for Blade Flurry to shine with the Gloves. I like the balance of Bracers for single target boost and Gloves for the AoE boost. I'd switch the Gloves to Ring if it ever dropped for me.

I only have the gloves and I'm liking them so far for the same reasons as you stated. I would absolutely love the ring, but wouldn't we all...

[ymirsson]

I feel like we had a cooldown reduction at one point. Seem to remember Adrenaline Rush being possible down to 30s at one point. Maybe it was a specific tier set bonus. Agree that we need some sort of mini True Bearing baked in.

We had it as a passive, Legion removed it, as well as the fluctuating damage buff.

[Xanatu]

So I got a frond tonight, excited from the big-time sims. Shit does like 2.5% of my damage at best. Did this get nerfed? Or is this just what I should expect from a trinket?

[Deleted]

So I got a frond tonight, excited from the big-time sims. Shit does like 2.5% of my damage at best. Did this get nerfed? Or is this just what I should expect from a trinket?

It looks like its currently underperforming most of the time. Blizzard announced an investigation in a Blue Post

#32 - 2017/01/23 11:28:00 PM
23/01/2017 22:35Posted by Beeble
Any plans for Nightblooming Frond? It seems to be underperforming on Live servers greatly compared to simulations.

Lore
Community Manager
We're looking into Nightblooming Frond a bit more.

So expect it to maybe get buffed/changed in next weeks hotfixes, it seems like they just didnt get any change to this trinket through with the other trinket changes we had this week.