Over 2000 guilds stuck at 3/10 mythic, was tuning 7 bosses to 54 traits a mistake?

[Deleted]

in my guild, we killed krosus with like 5 people without 54 traits. dont use 54 as excuse for bad play. you can do the dps, ofc it helps if you have 54...

[klogaroth]

I think the bigger problem that people run into on Krosus is that for your first kill you're likely to need everyone alive almost all of the fight. You need a decent level of gear and artifact traits, but being able to do the fight without people dying is going to make more of a difference at this point. You don't need to have no-lifed to have a high enough level weapon to kill it now.

[Ebalina]

I think the bigger problem that people run into on Krosus is that for your first kill you're likely to need everyone alive almost all of the fight. You need a decent level of gear and artifact traits, but being able to do the fight without people dying is going to make more of a difference at this point. You don't need to have no-lifed to have a high enough level weapon to kill it now.

I like how you keep saying "People alive" and i have a feeling that most people including your self keep forgetting that the paragon level on your weapon not only increases your dmg but also the stamina aka your % of surviving deadly combos boss like Krosus do present.

And while krosus is killable without the 54traits having them makes bosses significantly easy'er to progress be it in the dmg part or the surviving the mechanics part.
It is a must have for average people and that is the point because the game is not only here for the good the bad and the ugly, there people in between them as well which make the majority of the game.

[Jastall]

This thread has the usual retarded replies peppered in "hurr durr its mythic - its meant to be hard hurr durr!"

The issue is clearly the difficulty curve. The drop off from 3/10M to killing more is massive. If tuning we better it would be a gradual drop from boss to boss, not a plummet off a cliff from 3 bosses killed to 4. As usual most of the people contributing to the thread missed this.

There are always cutoff bosses, however. I remember Sha of Pride being tough in SoO. Butcher in Highmaul was second only to Imperator (albeit he didn't gate anything admitedly). Gorefiend was a guildbreaker, notorious for actually being harder than a few bosses that came after him. I'm probably forgetting some.

I think the problem is more that the previous 3 bosses might be a bit too easy, especially Trilliax, creating a false impression. We're barely a month in, it's normal that not too many people have progressed in Mythic.

[klogaroth]

I like how you keep saying "People alive" and i have a feeling that most people including your self keep forgetting that the paragon level on your weapon not only increases your dmg but also the stamina aka your % of surviving deadly combos boss like Krosus do present.

And while krosus is killable without the 54traits having them makes bosses significantly easy'er to progress be it in the dmg part or the surviving the mechanics part.
It is a must have for average people and that is the point because the game is not only here for the good the bad and the ugly, there people in between them as well which make the majority of the game.

By this point we've had enough lockouts that you can have acquired better gear than those who were doing split runs had when they hit Krosus. This largely accounts for that difference in player health. And throughput for that matter, since while people might not have 54 they're unlikely to be going in with really low levels either, so shouldn't need vast differences in gear to achieve similar results as those with slightly higher weapons.

I feel that a bigger problem than having 54 traits is not being able to go beyond 54 traits. The only way to go beyond the players that first killed the boss is with gear, whereas earlier in the expansion you could continue to get higher level weapons. I would not be surprised to see manual adjustments to boss health and damage if 7.2 doesn't drop soon, since I was under the impression that artifact power was going to be one of the primary ways by which content would be nerfed over time. Since the first guilds could go in there with 54 traits that doesn't work at the moment. The original double path to player power over time has become a single path for now.

[hulkgor]

That is simply false, with 35 traits you wont even come close to killing the last 7 bosses.

2-3 weeks ago? I'd agree.

35 traits (which i highly doubt people stopped at... average should be around 45ish?) with 4pc, bis gear, 905-910 ilvl (which will tend to increase even further?). It will become vastly easier. At least until you reach Star Augur.

[Nahela]

Oh my, someone who actualy understands the problem for once. Its the total lack of a proper difficulty curve that is the main issue on NH. We get 3 bosses so easy they are almost a joke, than the other 5 are so much harder theyre harder than the 3 first ones even if you were to figth all 3 at the same time, with Star Augur being rather ridiculous numberwise. I disagree with you on the part you say NH makes it better, NH has one of the worst difficulty curves Ive ever seen and the gap beteween normal and heroic is infinite. They got it quite right in Foundry and Siege of Orgrimmar so they certainly know how to do it, but they messed it up on an epic scale here.

No, you're right, I mostly mean on an individual boss basis. i.e. each boss scales well with itself, but not necessarily with the rest of the raid. You know that with each difficulty level the boss has 1 new trick, whereas previously there seemed to be no rhyme or reason to when mechanics were added. Sometimes Normal had all the mechanics, sometimes it had none, with no real consistency. In NH nearly every boss gets 1 new mechanic per difficulty. There's certainly a lot more to it than that, but that part is good design, they just need the difficulty therein to be more streamlined.

[Zan15]

in my guild, we killed krosus with like 5 people without 54 traits. dont use 54 as excuse for bad play. you can do the dps, ofc it helps if you have 54...

if you can't do the dps the bigger problem is most likely you have the wrong specs/classes more so then the 54 traits.

some casters are 80-120k behind others, even at their best

[zaino]

dont worry nerfs are inc

[Deleted]

Wacther confirmed ToS won't be tuned anywhere near max level aritifact progression, so the bosses will probably fall over fairly quickly like EN did.

How can be that sure
Main problem in EN was the forgiving mechanics unlike HoV and NH.Also you wont be in final traits for very good amount of time (even if the raid get released like 2 months after 7.2)

[TheRabidDeer]

"EN TOO EASY!"

"NH TOO HARD!"

Just play the damned game and stop complaining.

[Charge me Doctor]

probably not enough bis legos

[theyanger]

And even if Blizz removes 9,5% HP from the boss along with trait 36-54 people would complain about legendaries.
And when Blizz removes Legendaries (with some more BossHP) people would about the boss being overtuned instead of looking at their raiders.

Aka pointless thread.

I mean, if they also gave me back the hundreds of hours it took to get those extra 20 traits I'd be perfectly fucking happy with that actually.

People will always complain, people with 54 traits complain about legendaries, your point is moot. The difference is you currently have to grind the equivilent of 280 maw 10+s in order to even have the right to complain aobut anything else. The amount of time it takes me to worry about the other things wrong with this xpac is at least '0'

"EN TOO EASY!"

"NH TOO HARD!"

Just play the damned game and stop complaining.

Nobody says it's too hard, it's tuned aorund an absurd amount of grinding. Those are different things, snowflake.

I think the bigger problem that people run into on Krosus is that for your first kill you're likely to need everyone alive almost all of the fight. You need a decent level of gear and artifact traits, but being able to do the fight without people dying is going to make more of a difference at this point. You don't need to have no-lifed to have a high enough level weapon to kill it now.

As was already pointed out 'people not dying" is part of the fucking 54 traits. You aren't surviving Krosus with 2.9 million hp as anything but a rogue.
And no, people don't 'outgear' the guilds from the first week. As was the case with Emerald Nightmare, this is the first expansion where top guilds are entering raids with average HIGHER ilevels than weaker guilds, due to how M+ content and gear scaling accross the board work. These bosses are HARDER for casual guilds, not easier as is usually the case.
We're not talking about a single hard boss at the end of a zone, giving people a huge chance to gear up on the previous 9 bosses, we're talking about 7 bosses that they'[re not going to kill, leaving them just a few bosses to farm for any upgrades, or hoping for titanforging shit elsewhere.

[Ravingmad]

Getting 54 traits points is all about farming, or you should be already maxed if you're still on your main character since the expansion is out. But IMO thats not the problem. Its more about raid composition or gear/skill issues. Ever since we've cleaned Heroic to get to mythic, we've been bleeding out players. We're currently lacking healers which is stopping us. DPS-wise we're more than fine, but we need a solid group and play together more. Mythic is the endgame and should be difficult. Its been already cleared by the top guilds, with probably lower gear than we currently have at the moment. So I feel we just need to get better, play less greedy (should I tunnel the boss during the exec phase so I can rank myself or should I help kill the adds that will wipe the raid...??), stay focus on the fight until the end (yes, still need to soak those AoE even if the boss is almost dead) and gain more experience as a group (less new players/2nd spec/switch) and we should be able to move forward. Its gonna be hard, but I want to get there! Patience is key at the moment.

[Sarevokcz]

As was already pointed out 'people not dying" is part of the fucking 54 traits. You aren't surviving Krosus with 2.9 million hp as anything but a rogue.

for you to have 2.9M in any decent gear (around 900), you would need to be at like 30 traits. people VASTLY overestimate, how much HP you get out of traits, when in reality, you get like 15k per one. And noone is progressing krosus on alts with <30 traits, usually people are in the 45-50 range by now, thats like 60-150k less HP. I can guarantee you if people are constantly dying, its not because they have 3.1M HP...

[klogaroth]

And no, people don't 'outgear' the guilds from the first week.

You sure about that claim? I'm not gonna post all the ilvls in here, cos that'd spam up the forum, but generally there's around a 3 ilvl increase across the raid. That's as big a difference as a handful of traits raid wide is gonna make.

This was first kill vs most recent. The first kill wasn't the lowest ilvl kill, and the most recent wasn't the highest. They're just general ballpark figures that were coming up repeatedly.

There have been enough lockouts of heroic to cancel out split runs, and more importantly there have been multiple weeks in which people can kill the early bosses of mythic.

[Battlebeard]

The problem with Artifact Power and boss design is that it's almost required to have AP levels.

Imo, all bosses SHOULD be killable with a raid with only level 35 weapons, while up to 54 make it easier.

However, good luck killing Mythic Guldan with a 35 weapon-only raid, it's basically not possible.

AP should be a beneficial bonus but NOT mandatory.

[iky43210]

for you to have 2.9M in any decent gear (around 900), you would need to be at like 30 traits. people VASTLY overestimate, how much HP you get out of traits, when in reality, you get like 15k per one. And noone is progressing krosus on alts with <30 traits, usually people are in the 45-50 range by now, thats like 60-150k less HP. I can guarantee you if people are constantly dying, its not because they have 3.1M HP...

I wouldn't feel comfortable raiding with only 3.1m HP, that's at a range where you could get gibbed

[Rusken]

For every 100 guilds that make 4/10, another 120 hit 3/10.

[DeadSwordz]

The problem with Artifact Power and boss design is that it's almost required to have AP levels.

Imo, all bosses SHOULD be killable with a raid with only level 35 weapons, while up to 54 make it easier.

so you want a repeat of emerald nightmare where all the bosses just fall over