1. #2881
    Quote Originally Posted by skylark123 View Post
    The game / classes are so dumbed down to the point where it doesn't matter what you do or what you play.. Take it from a pvp'er, this game has turned to shits after the tanks, auto bubbles, demon mong hunters and all the classes that deals way to much damage/way to unbalanced.. Sure It's getting better and better with each patch, but jesus christ the lack of iconic abilities and outplay potential is horrendous! Love how everyone complained on having to many buttons, wanting "Class fantasy" and so on, and now they are complaining / striving to get them back.. Just please, stop ruining the game for everyone else.. You know who you are!
    I still have a lot of binds on my priest, i've counted 21 binds, 13 abilities i use frequently, like on every fight. the only ability i miss i think is fear ward although, to be fair there aren't a huge amount of fears. its noticable though when you do time walking dungeons and the times when you used to fear ward yourself, you can't anymore and your just thinking 'well, ok then'.

    i didn't use many abilities in vanilla, my healing tool kit consisted of mostly renew and flash heal, maybe prayer of healing occasionally. i was a 3 button class in vanilla. 4 if we include wanding.

    Here are some screenshots of me over the years, take a look at my action bars. i had no binds in vanilla, i was a 100% clicker. i made it through the whole of mc with not one heal bound to a key i relied on benecast next to the target frame. probably the first iteration of a 'healing' addon wayyy before healbot was a thing. today i use a combination of healbot and binds. i have my lmb set to flash heal+auto target, thats the only way i target ppl, if i don't want to cast a flash, i have to stop cast by moving or move while clicking. its how i've always played, side stepping left and right for stop cast. during tbc i did use CT_raid for targets and healbot for instant healing, so you could target one person with the raid frame, and heal someone else through healbot without losing your target. i don't generally need to do that anymore and have settled on just healbot for my list of party/raid members.

    the skill cap in the game has increased substantially since the early days, there is no chance in hell i could play the game today with action bars like i had during my time raiding mc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dukenukemx View Post
    But in many ways modern WoW has kinda destroyed this. Now it's all about farming for the best loot. That is until the next patch which has even better loot. The game devolved into Destiny's Loot Cave.
    it was always about loot though, it just wasn't instantly apparent, after 12 years of gathering loot it is going to start to wear thin after a while, i still enjoy progressing though, the loot is just the reward, the enjoyment is over coming the challenge. when a game isn't challenging you any more, its going to cease being fun. i'm still watching the video.

    the encounters in vanilla wow were created and balanced around everyone being basically a noob, a lot of ppl were clickers and keyboard turners, you can still play the game like that today but its going to be extremely frustrating when your reaction time is tested. basically none of the raids in classic wow are going to challenge anyone who did them in the past, they won't challenge ppl who are playing now and didn't do them in the past, there are bosses in 5 mans that have more abilities than raid bosses in vanilla, every boss inside a raid today has more abilities and more complex mechanics than end bosses in classic wow, most bosses today are like kel'thuzad in original naxx in terms of the amount of things you need to be aware of per boss.

    there is no way we can go back to a time where bosses cycle 2 or 3 abilities and have that some how be challenging again.
    Last edited by Heathy; 2017-03-01 at 12:54 AM.

  2. #2882
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hiram View Post
    Yes! you can put this in any thread, any debate and whenever you aren't facing a nihilist you realize that the very part of debating things is worth it.

    If you have a good time playing WoW vanilla without even playing Legion then this is a viable opinion why vanilla is good! Others will not even have played WoW before expansion x and only can say "I love this or current most". Again, completely viable opinion on "what is fun to play". And when, forced by sad rational choice someone is forced to say "I rather play vanilla than current" to just rely the message "I fucking love vanilla!" it's not up to any logic tests to make their opinion more or less valuable.
    Aye. But a person should be able to logically support their opinion. A person can absolutely like or prefer red over blue, but when you start to qualify that opinion you better have facts.

    If the OP is indeed "doing some research" he/she may want to avoid being fallacious entirely. The reality of doing any sort of data collection in regards to Blizzard and their games is that we the players just don't have access to any real or relevant data to support assumptions that are made on a daily basis. The statement that one is better than the other is highly subjective and based on anecdotal data. Most (if not all) the responses here are anecdotal and bias. Assuming for a second that each post contained relevant data useful for any hypothesis, your samples would be highly suspect as an accurate depiction of the community at large.

  3. #2883
    Quote Originally Posted by Heathy View Post
    the space battles in phantom menace where better than the battles in the old star wars. was the story and characters better, who cares i'm not a die hard enough fan to really give a shit.
    "Stay on target" "Almost there" "They came from... behind!" is a lot more epic than "Now THIS is Podracing!" I don't even know what to say....

    :P

    Sorry for offtopic. Not sorry.



    Oh good Partysaurus has come to the troll the shit out the thread; good times.
    Last edited by AeneasBK; 2017-02-28 at 11:40 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
    Posting here is primarily a way to strengthen your own viewpoint against common counter-arguments.

  4. #2884
    Quote Originally Posted by AeneasBK View Post
    "Stay on target" "Almost there" "They came from... behind!" is a lot more epic than "Now THIS is Podracing!" I don't even know what to say....

    :P

    Sorry for offtopic. Not sorry.
    like i said its a tough choice for me, i grew up with stop motion, i used to watch clash of the titans and sinbad like all the time as a child, stop motion and harryhausen monsters will always have a special place for me and will probably always be superior to cgi, but there was a lot more action in ep12&3 more lightsaber battles. i don't think its fair for me to pick what is the best because the whole thing was a strawman, movies are set in stone they require no input from you, you can't alter the outcome they have one element of entertainment and no optional content unless we're talking deleted scenes it was an impossible comparison for someone who isn't a massive star wars fan, i like star wars i played a consular in swtor for a while but stopped playing years ago it just didn't keep my interest. hell i loved kotor 1&2, i preferred the action in ep 1/2/3 but the story wasn't that great indeed. they were more actiony, but had a weak story.

  5. #2885
    Quote Originally Posted by Heathy View Post
    like i said its a tough choice for me, i grew up with stop motion, i used to watch clash of the titans and sinbad like all the time as a child, stop motion and harryhausen monsters will always have a special place for me and will probably always be superior to cgi, but there was a lot more action in ep12&3 more lightsaber battles. i don't think its fair for me to pick what is the best because the whole thing was a strawman, movies are set in stone they require no input from you, you can't alter the outcome they have one element of entertainment and no optional content unless we're talking deleted scenes it was an impossible comparison for someone who isn't a massive star wars fan, i like star wars i played a consular in swtor for a while but stopped playing years ago it just didn't keep my interest. hell i loved kotor 1&2, i preferred the action in ep 1/2/3 but the story wasn't that great indeed. they were more actiony, but had a weak story.
    I've enjoyed our exchanges throughout this thread btw; ty for being patient with me
    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
    Posting here is primarily a way to strengthen your own viewpoint against common counter-arguments.

  6. #2886
    As a wise orc once side, "Everything".

  7. #2887
    Quote Originally Posted by AeneasBK View Post
    I've enjoyed our exchanges throughout this thread btw; ty for being patient with me
    your welcome, i just want to make it perfectly clear, i don't have a problem with ppl wanting to play or currently playing vanilla, i would support progression servers, i'm just basically trying to figure out how it would work in terms of challenge and how blizzard could do such a thing without say, creating a server and a version of wow that ends up pleasing no one, so effectively wasting time creating something that they think ppl want, but ends up not .. being what ppl want, for various reasons.

    a lot of what ppl have said is true about vanilla, it was a completely different game compared today, i have a hard time imagining it would be the same a second time around.

    as far as the current game goes, i also agree with ppls points on things like loot being replaced too quickly, loot being too easy to get. i'm a rather modest person so picking between extremes is difficult for me, i prefer that more ppl are included, after all its a game not a competition, i'm older now than i was, i was 18 when i started playing wow, i turned 30 a few weeks ago. my mentality on gaming has almost completely changed. in the past i would agree that ppl need to put in lots of effort to get loot and progress and everyone should have to raid to get the best loot.

    today i realise that, its not possible for everyone to do that, it must be very difficult for blizzard to come up with interesting things to do in the game without pissing ppl off, there is a very fine line between giving ppl the chance to progress through the game and keeping the feeling of items being powerful, interesting and rare.

    what sucked for me was wanting to see all the content in vanilla but ending up just not raiding enough to get to it, the game demanded a serious amount of raiding time to make it to the end. there has to be a balance between the content being challenging, again loot being rare, and progress being possible to make before more content comes a long or a new expansion is released.

    its the problem with the legendaries and the mythic race AP farming, these systems were not designed to be blitzed, they were designed to be expansion wide goals something to work on or toward during the course of the expansion, but ppl want to get to the end NOW and they are missing the point entirely.

    its an interesting topic of discussion, whether or not the systems ppl miss from vanilla would work in the game today, if the game could have kept those systems and still managed to reach the same point today. the changes definitely started happening in tbc, wrath was full-on casual friendly. lots of ppl really liked that, it was great for alts. i don't really know if they could have kept progressing the game without changing certain things, i think it was inevitable that some systems had to be scrapped and revamped to keep up with the times.

    the talent trees obviously had to go eventually, they were getting very convoluted and adding new tiers of talents balancing them against everyone elses talents, it must have been a nightmare. not as many talents today, but room for more? this system probably would be 'easier' to balance if they decide to add more tiers in future expansions.

    but that is what it comes down to, changes that feel bad in the short term, were most likely made while thinking about the long term.
    Last edited by Heathy; 2017-03-01 at 01:03 AM.

  8. #2888
    Where is my chicken! moremana's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by InfiniteCharger View Post
    The issue I have with the game is more around the evolution in the idea of what an MMO is and the feeling that, in general, the emergent game play that was promised with most MMOs just hasn't panned out for WOW specifically and has caused some of the growing pains. More and more MMOs just seem like online multiplayer static games on rails. This isn't how things were originally envisioned way back in the day. But unfortunately ideals and theory have to live in the world of business and profit so of course things will change.

    So starting from the top:
    1) Classes. In Vanilla, they went with the old school approach of the D&D classes (based on Warcraft Lore). Classes had unique spells and abilities and generally all had niches. This meant each class had particular strengths and weaknesses. Ie, magic users could wield powerful spells, but could be easily smacked down by physical attacks because they wore no armor. Tanks had all sort of ways to mitigate damage like blocks, parries and shields but really couldn't heal themselves. And so forth. Giving rise to the trinity of tank, heal, dps for most group encounters. And the underlying philosophy is that there was supposed to be imbalances between classes and specs in various areas. And this 'class fantasy' was reinforced by flavor spells and abilities unique to certain classes. Hybrids, such as druids, never could keep up with dedicated classes by design. But, over time just like with D&D, more classes became hybrids, starting with the first Hero class, which had the ability to heal themselves through combo attacks. And eventually more and more class specific spells and abilities were lost and more classes gained healing abilities, to the point where in WOD, some tanks and DPS classes were topping out the healing meters. Not sure that these kinds of changes are really for the benefit of the game. And then of course with Legion comes a whole new set of class changes revamping a lot of class abilities that were still present. In my opinion, some of these core class design philosophies have swung too much towards the wrong end of the spectrum and classes should absolutely have strengths and weaknesses and the game play should reflect that. An example is how back in the day, certain bosses and mobs were immune to certain forms of magic and had various forms of resists to damage. That has all but been removed from the game. Part of the fantasy of the genre goes back to the tabletop where the fun is in being able to decide the outcome of an encounter based on the mobs present and the strengths and weaknesses of the party composition.

    2) The world. Obviously the original game was an entire world or series of zones spread across multiple continents. But that was the beginning and end of the concept of the MMO being a dynamically changing world, especially in WOW. Most MMOs just do expansions and create new zones only for paying customers. And typically these are only for top level players at that. Therefore, over time, the rest of the world goes stale as the events of the new expansion rarely have an impact on these old zones. That really goes against the original idea and philosophy of what an MMO was supposed to be and diminishes the sense of immersion in an open virtual world. Flying would not be the boondoggle it currently is (at least on the forums) if there was actually an entire world to navigate around. There is no rule in place saying that it has to be like that in an MMO and mostly I see it as a business decision to provide incentives for customers to pay for new content on top of a subscription fee. But the problem is what happens when a game is 20 years old and you have areas that are stuck in a time warp? That really doesn't help promote the fantasy of what an MMO is supposed to be. World Building has suffered because of this having the disastrous side effect of limiting the viability of what can be done in the world. The original RTS had no such issues and therefore each version featured tremendous amounts of world building building on and creating much of the established world. But most of those world building/defining events would never have happened in the same way if they happened in WOW, where each expansion does not have the world impact it should have or would have if it was done in the RTS.

    3) Lore and Story. Most of the good lore and story for WOW actually comes from the RTS. And the best bits of that were actually interactive parts of the game. What made story and the lore so great was the sense of loss and great suffering during these conflicts of the original games. Given that these bits of lore happened during the RTS, this means it was generated within the game itself. Unfortunately just like world building, this ability to define deep meaningful lore and stories is lost with WOW. You could never have an Arthas or even the scourge if done in WOW versus the RTS. Whole zones and cities could never be destroyed because players would be to worried about losing a flight path, or even better because the arthas expansion would be in a separate zone not connected to the old world and therefore never have the lore and story impact as the original game. This is why Wrath was the pinnacle of WOW in many people's eyes, as it wrapped up a major lore point and story established from the events of the original RTS. The issue then becomes how to generate new lore and stories that are just as meaningful as things introduced in the RTS. (note orcs, the horde, the scourge, demons and so forth all came from the events of the original RTS). The key thing lacking in WOW is that as expansions move along, major lore and story points are abandoned or take a back burner and hence never get updated, which only reinforces the idea of a dead world with little world building.

    4) Lack of a serious sense of threat. In the RTS, the events of the game showed that the good guys didn't always win and sometimes very bad things happened that had a devastating affect on the world. This meant that the bad guys actually presented a clear and tangible threat. Take the scourge for example. That was one clear threat introduced from the RTS and continued in WOW to the present day. You have not seen anything like that introduced in WOW itself. Because in the MMO, the champions will always go in and save the day because the bad guys always stay in one place and wait for you to 'get gud' and beat them. This never happened in the RTS. Bad guys did bad things out in the world and either you stopped them or you just got steamrolled. Most times folks got steamrolled. The MMO format doesn't necessarily cause this, as opposed to the way most MMOs have been designed. To most MMO designers, a persistent world means zones, towns and NPCs stay in place forever and therefore nothing bad ever happens to them, which means baddies don't just roam around and wreck shop like they would in the real world. Threats stay in artificially walled off areas called raids and never venture out into the world and DO anything of consequence. Hence they are never a threat. They stay contained in their little theme area and you get to go in and kill them at some point. No massive plagues can be unleashed on towns and citizens. No massive waves of demonic minions laying waste to whole zones, no massive fel asteroids destroying whole areas. Nothing that would naturally induce a sense of threat and danger. And of course you the player can never die so the game play philosophy of WOW as an MMO weakens the emergent game play opportunities that would keep content relevant for a longer time.

    I doubt that most of these things were thought about in a serious way when WOW started because most people didn't expect the game to last this long. But given that it has and if they ever plan on keeping it going in one form or another, certainly these kinds of things should be addressed. There are plenty of ways of addressing this, such as option for 'evil/bad guy aligned' factions and for mercenary or pirate factions. WOW currently doesn't support this, but there is nothing that says you couldn't have them in a traditional MMO. Player vs player has more emergent and long lasting game play than purely player vs AI. But all of these things come with hindsight and most folks weren't aware of what would take place over time after most people hit level cap and the game reached centuries old.

    - - - Updated - - -


    I really enjoyed reading this. It is probably the best article explaining the way things were intended but then somehow got lost in the ever changing world of WoW.

    I dont think game play itself was better in Vanilla, I think there is alot of Nostalgia, people always want the good times in life to return, whether it be a game or a person or job..etc. So when we look back on Vanilla we remember when the game was good. It was new and exciting, everyone had to explore to get any where, we met people all over the world and played together, it was all new.

    As usual, all good things come to an end, not because they had to, but gamers evolved, to new gamers playing in a exploration world and meeting new people all over the world is not a big thing like it was in 2005.

    I do think the game has lost the MMO part of it. We are now playing in a world where all the new things we had as "veterans" are old now, making friends online and having a "good rep" isnt as important now as it was then. The new designers and the ones to come have that same mentality as the new generations of gamers that arrive and the game gets "updated" to whats important to them.

    I miss Vanilla, I miss all the "new", I miss exploring and I miss meeting new people, but all those things important to me, are not as important to the new generations.

    When I am on my dying bed, I hope that somewhere in my mind I remember those good ole days of World of Warcraft from the early days.

    Note: No disrespect was intended in this post, if I offended you that was not my intention.

  9. #2889
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Cailan Ebonheart View Post
    I've done nothing wrong. I'm not the one with the problem its everyone else that has a problem with me.
    Quote Originally Posted by MilesMcStyles View Post
    I don't care that other people don't play the content that I enjoy.

  10. #2890

  11. #2891
    Quote Originally Posted by Grimfrost View Post
    Nostalgia?
    There is a problem with the blanket statement people try to wrap up an argument with - nostalgia.

    The problem is that folks enjoy the older graphics, gameplay and maps. I'm one of them.

    To me nostalgia is something to be re-experienced, enjoyed, and not discarded.

    Vanilla / TBC is really too enjoyable to be tossed away. Sorry, the nostalgia argument fails. I'd rather play those SPECIFIC versions than anything currently being offered.

    Again, sorry.

  12. #2892
    People are crazy that's why

  13. #2893
    mrsohta
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrsohta View Post
    People are crazy that's why
    nice

    /10char

  14. #2894
    Quote Originally Posted by Sam the Wiser View Post
    As a wise orc once side, "Everything".
    And how is that wise Orc doing these days?

  15. #2895
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Eleccybubb View Post
    And how is that wise Orc doing these days?
    Not dropping a trinket I need for one. Curse you!

  16. #2896
    While youtubbing (is this even a thing?) i tripped on this video made by Kungen https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9kTpmAvcPs

    Now, i'm not saying i agree with his tone or agree completly with the content of the video, but because this question has been raised several times, specially about differences in raiding beetween Vanilla and now, i think it's a interesting video to look at.

  17. #2897
    Quote Originally Posted by voidillusion View Post
    While youtubbing (is this even a thing?) i tripped on this video made by Kungen https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9kTpmAvcPs

    Now, i'm not saying i agree with his tone or agree completly with the content of the video, but because this question has been raised several times, specially about differences in raiding beetween Vanilla and now, i think it's a interesting video to look at.
    Oh please. Come on. The guy goes completely by "how many people cleared hardest content" metric, completely ignoring all the other variables at play here, like the fact that raid addons weren't as prevalent as they are today. I mean, DBM was created in 2008 (I think), for example. Positioning addons. Healing addons. Etc, etc. Not to mention guides. Today, guilds would go into PTR for boss testing, record their fights, and post YouTube videos explaining the fight and its mechanics (FatBoss, L2Raid, etc) and would write extensive guides on the fight. Back then, that didn't happen. There is also a smaller item level gap between raids, helping with the boost, as well. And etc...

  18. #2898
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    like the fact that raid addons weren't as prevalent as they are today
    This just means you didn't bother to watch or listen carefully to the entire video, it specifically addresses that. It's ok though, comming from you it was kinda expected.

  19. #2899
    Quote Originally Posted by voidillusion View Post
    This just means you didn't bother to watch or listen carefully to the entire video, it specifically addresses that. It's ok though, comming from you it was kinda expected.
    Oh, please. He just glosses over it, saying "we didn't have that in vanilla" and that's it. Guides didn't make the game 'easier'. Saving time doesn't make something 'easier'. Just less time-consuming. It just saved you a lot of time you'd lose on 'trial and error' wipes to figure out a working strategy. As for boss mods like Big Wigs and DBM? The game evolved basically around them, as the fights became progressively more complex. Besides, DBM and the like isn't even half as useful (at least in my opinion) than YT guides.

  20. #2900
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Oh, please. He just glosses over it, saying "we didn't have that in vanilla" and that's it. Guides didn't make the game 'easier'. Saving time doesn't make something 'easier'. Just less time-consuming. It just saved you a lot of time you'd lose on 'trial and error' wipes to figure out a working strategy. As for boss mods like Big Wigs and DBM? The game evolved basically around them, as the fights became progressively more complex. Besides, DBM and the like isn't even half as useful (at least in my opinion) than YT guides.
    He does highlight that quite a bit, not in the sence you're highlighting. His opinion was that not only was the content actually harder, like the example he gives in the video, but you also couldn't relly on the addons and bossguides or dungeon guides you have to day. On top of that he also highlights the absence of magic aoe i heal everything buttons. I really doubt you payed attention to the video, i really really do.

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