Over 2000 guilds stuck at 3/10 mythic, was tuning 7 bosses to 54 traits a mistake?

[Deleted]

It sounds like people are encountering a lot of frustration over not having the ideal composition for the raid. They're then blaming their failures on discrepancies between their own successes with other classes, specs or players rather than what they are - failures of execution or lack of gear/traits. The lowest logged (highest) DPS, 726k by the Shadow Priest in the data I linked to above, is more DPS than what is required. If you're bringing a raid full of shadow priests you can still succeed. Chances are though, that you have a good mix of DPS including some at the top.

Your point is so wrong, I don't know where to start.

The best Shadow Priest does 726k by having great gear, great legendaries and probably good RNG. Here is the thing: 95+% of Shadow Priests don't have that combination.

You just cannot look at the top parses for every spec and assume that every player with this spec can do the same DPS.

[Deja Thoris]

If you're bringing a raid full of shadow priests you can still succeed. Chances are though, that you have a good mix of DPS including some at the top.

Yea they'd just have to parse over the 75th percentile. Whereas you can take warriors rogues and demon hunters that headbutt the keyboard and you'd make the enrage.

Your post is borderline retarded.

[Chaelexi]

The raid will not likely see a nerf, per say, but 7.2 will launch in a 4-6 weeks and we will get player buffs through the additional traits we get.

[Deleted]

Eh. It was balanced around 54 traits for the first week, which means the top 3 guilds. After that, gear and the rng connected to it threw all that off anyway. Claiming that's it's impossible with today's typical mythic guild's ilvl and fewer than 54 traits is ridiculous. Don't overvalue traits. Sure they make a difference, but bad with 40 traits and more gear will still be bad at 54 traits and more gear.

It's just that anything past Trilliax is harder.

[Richardbro]

You seem like the kind of person that complains when a tier is cleared in a month, but if it takes longer than a month, you complain that there is some 'huge error'. People like you are impossible to please. Oh well.

Quite the opposite actually, I like mythic raids having a difficulty similar to Emerald Nightmare or slightly more difficult. A steady progression that will take top guilds a week or a few days to clear given their insane amount of split runs and dedication; while taking regular mythic guilds 2-3 months to clear.

Making mythic difficulty too hard is idiotic on Blizzard's part. Nighthold at it's current difficulty will be cleared by probably 300-500 guilds by the time ToS comes out. Instead, 1500-2000 guilds clearing it is a better number and still is 1-5% of the player base.

[Measure]

Some bosses are definitely overtuned. Not all though.

[Toybox]

Quite the opposite actually, I like mythic raids having a difficulty similar to Emerald Nightmare or slightly more difficult. A steady progression that will take top guilds a week or a few days to clear given their insane amount of split runs and dedication; while taking regular mythic guilds 2-3 months to clear.

Making mythic difficulty too hard is idiotic on Blizzard's part. Nighthold at it's current difficulty will be cleared by probably 300-500 guilds by the time ToS comes out. Instead, 1500-2000 guilds clearing it is a better number and still is 1-5% of the player base.

Emerald Nightmare was cleared by almost 5000 guilds before Cutting Edge was removed & Nighthold released.

Some bosses are definitely overtuned. Not all though.

Which are overtuned?

Trilliax is undertuned as it's easier than the boss before it by a significant margin, and Krosus is poorly tuned because it screws with the number of healers (but the requirement per tank/DPS player is fine). Not sure about Augur onwards, but none of bosses 4-7 feel overtuned to me.

[Zan15]

They haven't made some of them "quite useless" on some bosses. Every DPS is viable, some are a lot better than others. Your constant hyperbole is unwarranted as it only takes a brief look at warcraftlogs to see that every DPS is viable.

This is 75th Percentile for Krosus:

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/11/#boss=1842

This is 50th Percentile:

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...842&dataset=50

Finally this is the Max:

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...42&dataset=100

Note the lowest dps there is 726k logged by a Shadow Priest, while the highest is 924k logged by an Assi Rogue.

Notice that, Survival Hunter has the lowest representation but has logged 793k dps.

Notice that, all of the dps. Every single one of them. Is capable of far and above the requirements for the raid.

I would stop guessing if I were you, because it isn't me that lacks understanding.



So you're saying that every spec and class deals a different amount of damage? This changes everything. This must be new to t19 right? We've never experienced this before?



Not just viable, definitely realistic and obviously not suggested. Why would you suggest anything other than the best - that would be like suggesting take out from McDonalds over a Michelin Star dining experience. You're getting fed - you'll save money, possibly even enjoy the food but if someone is asking for suggestions they probably aren't asking for you to suggest from the bottom of the list.

It sounds like people are encountering a lot of frustration over not having the ideal composition for the raid. They're then blaming their failures on discrepancies between their own successes with other classes, specs or players rather than what they are - failures of execution or lack of gear/traits. The lowest logged (highest) DPS, 726k by the Shadow Priest in the data I linked to above, is more DPS than what is required. If you're bringing a raid full of shadow priests you can still succeed. Chances are though, that you have a good mix of DPS including some at the top.

Clearly, Nighthold is more difficult than EN. Hopefully Tomb follows suit.

taking the max dps is not a true reflection of performance.

look at the top 3 moonkin parces. they all have over 25 million damage on adds. That's padding.

After that it drops of dramatically.


realistically if you look at the top 80-90% you have 3-4 specs (moon, spriest, warlock D, fire mage) that are serious under performers on ST fights.
Moonkin being 50k off midpoint of casters.


Also looking at the max you can also see that most of them have 5+ kills on the fight. they are sitting at 5-9 ilvls above the average raider. shorter fights promote less movement, promote higher dps.

look at item level brackets

899 to 901. Dont see a problem???
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...=20&dataset=90

902-904
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...=21&dataset=90

905-907
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...=22&dataset=90

908-910
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...=23&dataset=90


Huge problems when you start looking at equal gear.

looks like you need to be 3-5 ilvls higher then other classes/specs in your raid in order for some specs to "meet the requirements"


Your shadow priest on top had 40 million on adds and ilvl of 905.
Next 3, 908,909,910 to hit 730k dps

other classes are hitting 920k at those levels

top caster is 850k at that level.....120k dps difference.

how can you not see the problem?


2nd best caster is hitting 810k dps......80k dps difference.


10% is not balanced.


your 909 boomkin hit 763k #1. Your warlock hit 850k and your mage hit 964k.


Truth is some specs are carried on ST fights, or they are sat till they have it on farm.

should not be this broken

[Sarevokcz]

taking the max dps is not a true reflection of performance.

I wouldnt look at Krosus numbers in the first place. they took away parry, which was to be expected on that boss, but for some reason dual wield melees dont have their miss chance on autoattacks there either, so obviously DW specs with strong autoattack procs will dominate, since they have like 20% more of them

[Chareoss]

Currently, there are over 2000 guilds stuck at 3/10 mythic in the Nighthold which is quite a problem.

It is almost statistically impossible to kill any of the 7 remaining bosses without a majority of the raid having 54 artifact traits.

Do you see this as a big problem?

the whole 54 thing was a huge mistake. I mean.. think about it. why even 54? why not 50? why not 100? it should have stopped at 35.

[Mykk]

2000 guilds needs to git gud.

The fact that whole mythic was cleared by top guilds within week or two tells only one story. Whole place was undertuned like EN.

WoW has been dumped down for ages now and literally game is press 4-5 buttons for 10minutes and watch out shit below you and get bosses down. In past boss mechanics might've been a lot simpler but they were a lot more punishing and top of that requirement to get in raid was a lot higher. Nowdays bosses are a lot more complicated but at the same time a lot more forgiving and requirement to raid is log in 1minute before raid starts.

Whole concept of wows endgame and raids is boring as hell. Play 2 hours a day and get best items and skill requirement is non existing

[Deleted]

Your point is so wrong, I don't know where to start.

The best Shadow Priest does 726k by having great gear, great legendaries and probably good RNG. Here is the thing: 95+% of Shadow Priests don't have that combination.

You just cannot look at the top parses for every spec and assume that every player with this spec can do the same DPS.

You seem to have completed glazed over where I typed "failures of execution or lack of gear/traits".

- - - Updated - - -

Yea they'd just have to parse over the 75th percentile. Whereas you can take warriors rogues and demon hunters that headbutt the keyboard and you'd make the enrage.

Your post is borderline retarded.

Man that 75th percentile, so hard to reach.

- - - Updated - - -

Truth is some specs are carried on ST fights, or they are sat till they have it on farm.

should not be this broken

Yup which is the intention. You call it broken, Blizzard calls it intended.

Also I'd say having 900iL should be pretty much where your average joe raider wants to be before they think they can clear mythic. You saying 903,904,905 as if that is out of place, how many weeks has the weekly chest been offering 900 items? How many opportunities have people had to clear heroic NH now with chances at warforged and titanforged gear? Add in the 940 legs and I struggle to see how anyone could honestly not be over 900 avg even if they are using lower iL items equipped for their bonus.

Who are these people who think they should clear the "hardest" content in the game without some of the best gear in the game?

[Myztikrice]

Some of the best gear in the game doesn't give you 900 ilvl, and a piece of jewelery with +25 ilvls can have worse scaling stats and be a downgrade.

[Deifi]

The fact that whole mythic was cleared by top guilds within week or two tells only one story. Whole place was undertuned like EN.

Top guilds in the world will always clear it in a week or 2 unless you make it impossible (example, C'thun).

NH isn't undertuned

[Dangg]

2000 guilds needs to git gud.

The fact that whole mythic was cleared by top guilds within week or two tells only one story. Whole place was undertuned like EN.

WoW has been dumped down for ages now and literally game is press 4-5 buttons for 10minutes and watch out shit below you and get bosses down. In past boss mechanics might've been a lot simpler but they were a lot more punishing and top of that requirement to get in raid was a lot higher. Nowdays bosses are a lot more complicated but at the same time a lot more forgiving and requirement to raid is log in 1minute before raid starts.

Whole concept of wows endgame and raids is boring as hell. Play 2 hours a day and get best items and skill requirement is non existing

Where is your chin mate?

[Deleted]

2000 guilds needs to git gud.

The fact that whole mythic was cleared by top guilds within week or two tells only one story. Whole place was undertuned like EN.

WoW has been dumped down for ages now and literally game is press 4-5 buttons for 10minutes and watch out shit below you and get bosses down. In past boss mechanics might've been a lot simpler but they were a lot more punishing and top of that requirement to get in raid was a lot higher. Nowdays bosses are a lot more complicated but at the same time a lot more forgiving and requirement to raid is log in 1minute before raid starts.

Whole concept of wows endgame and raids is boring as hell. Play 2 hours a day and get best items and skill requirement is non existing

Woah people, we have a badass overhere!
Please tell me all about how Krosus-mythic is a lot more forgiving than any of the previous bosses were...

[Deja Thoris]

Man that 75th percentile, so hard to reach.

Considering the guilds that have killed it are the stronger ones that can pick and choose classes to a large extent. This means that their SP's will be really good players so yea 75th % will be pretty hard to reach for a lot of people. By definition its already far better than average isn't it?

Any more idiotic comebacks or you done fighting this losing battle?

[Deleted]

Considering the guilds that have killed it are the stronger ones that can pick and choose classes to a large extent. This means that their SP's will be really good players so yea 75th % will be pretty hard to reach for a lot of people. By definition its already far better than average isn't it?

Any more idiotic comebacks or you done fighting this losing battle?

Mythic+ isn't meant for the average player. If you're average, stay in heroic. That's designed for you.

[Deja Thoris]

Mythic+ isn't meant for the average player. If you're average, stay in heroic. That's designed for you.

Do you even understand the numbers you are looking at? It's only average compared to the others in the group (who are not average)

Oh I give in, explaining statistics to a chimp is never going to end well.

[Deleted]

Man that 75th percentile, so hard to reach.

Mythic+ isn't meant for the average player. If you're average, stay in heroic. That's designed for you.

little common sence: even 10 percentile (yes ten) means a kill, that means they are not stuck on boss. people who don't kill it are not even in the damn statistics.

actually if you think about it - less is more hardcore - top guilds do it most efficiently, killing progression bosses with minimum DPS.
casuals who later catch up, take longer, gear up more - and have higher overall percentiles on damage meters (on first kills) than hardcore raiders before them.