Universal basic incomes

[schwarzkopf]

Society needs to make a choice:

1. Support those who need support, either through education and/or basic wage to improve themselves.
OR
2. Support those who can't survive with euthanasia options so they can remove themselves from the suffering society imposes.

It is no longer acceptable for society to ignore the problem.

[SupBrah]

Except literally none of those things are true. Even the basic definition of a UBI means you get it no matter what. Whether you work or not. Whether you go out and waste your time protesting or not. Whether you have no kids or 20 kids. Whether you have a liberal arts degree or a degree in engineering.

One of the benefits about a UBI is that people like you can educate themselves more with all the free time you'll have.

lol if you think you'll just get free money thrown at you no matter what you want to do with life, and with no restriction. That will all but ensure the collapse of such a system.

The real world doesn't work like that kiddo. You might leech off mommy and daddy, but mommy and daddy probably have to put in the work to sustain your leeching. Just like how people will still have to contribute to the system to keep it even remotely plausible.

UBI is like communism. Sounds good on paper, but when you actually implement it and realize you forgot to account for the whole human-component, it goes up in flames very fast if you don't take control of that human component.

[Dawnseven]

At some point every cashier job is going to be automated, self driving cars will get rid of taxis and truckers, the remaining factory jobs will be automated before long, I mean there are going to be hundreds of millions of people losing their jobs.

Personally, I like the idea of UBI and getting rid of welfare as it is. I don't think I completely agree with the massive unemployment part though. "When one door closes..." you know? We recently adopted a whole new platform of automation where I work. It didn't result in less work though, it resulted in different work. Self driving cars might cut down drastically on taxis and truckers, but in their place you'll get a whole lot more engineers, programmers, etc.

[Stacyrect]

A universal income is a nice thought. However, it won't work very well in the future. Market forces will double down in competition for every last penny you have. If you were a very poor person who couldn't afford basic necessitates such as clean water, food, and shelter then this would obviously be a quality of life improvement for you. Everything above that will see a massive spike to quality of living, most notably to those who live in urban environments who lack access to exploit natural resources in order to financially save.

[Endus]

lol if you think you'll just get free money thrown at you no matter what you want to do with life, and with no restriction. That will all but ensure the collapse of such a system.

The real world doesn't work like that kiddo. You might leech off mommy and daddy, but mommy and daddy probably have to put in the work to sustain your leeching. Just like how people will still have to contribute to the system to keep it even remotely plausible.

UBI is like communism. Sounds good on paper, but when you actually implement it and realize you forgot to account for the whole human-component, it goes up in flames very fast if you don't take control of that human component.

I'm interested to know where you're getting this information, since we have implemented UBI systems in test cases, and it's worked fine.

[Tommi]

Why do you want to pay me to sit at home, fap and play games all day?

As someone who pretty much does that, you'll get bored very very quickly. What I'd give to be able to return to work. Basic income would just cover basic what you'd need to live. It wouldn't be much of a life though.

[Deleted]

Anyone read utopia for realists?

[zenkai]

I'm interested to know where you're getting this information, since we have implemented UBI systems in test cases, and it's worked fine.

It worked so good that no one decided to do it.

[Dextroden]

I'm interested to know where you're getting this information, since we have implemented UBI systems in test cases, and it's worked fine.

Less than ten years in the 70s. It's a nice reference point, but the society and technology, in addition to the economy, has changed drastically. In addition, this has to last long, LONG, past a definitive end date.

[Daelak]

Less than ten years in the 70s. It's a nice reference point, but the society and technology, in addition to the economy, has changed drastically. In addition, this has to last long, LONG, past a definitive end date.

That isn't a compelling counter argument. Considering that US debt is the most safest and sought after financial instrument, we have an unlimited credit rating, this is why the conservative moniker of "unfunded" liabilities of our entitlement programs aren't causing cataclysmic shocks in the global economy.

[Theodarzna]

lol if you think you'll just get free money thrown at you no matter what you want to do with life, and with no restriction. That will all but ensure the collapse of such a system.

The real world doesn't work like that kiddo. You might leech off mommy and daddy, but mommy and daddy probably have to put in the work to sustain your leeching. Just like how people will still have to contribute to the system to keep it even remotely plausible.

UBI is like communism. Sounds good on paper, but when you actually implement it and realize you forgot to account for the whole human-component, it goes up in flames very fast if you don't take control of that human component.

We are headed for the grave either way. But we refuse to ask these big civilizational and social organization level questions.

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That isn't a compelling counter argument. Considering that US debt is the most safest and sought after financial instrument, we have an unlimited credit rating, this is why the conservative moniker of "unfunded" liabilities of our entitlement programs aren't causing cataclysmic shocks in the global economy.

That is simply an impossibility. Our credit remains good for now but things can and WILL change to our misfortune. One shouldn't act like the good times will last forever.

[zenkai]

That isn't a compelling counter argument. Considering that US debt is the most safest and sought after financial instrument, we have an unlimited credit rating, this is why the conservative moniker of "unfunded" liabilities of our entitlement programs aren't causing cataclysmic shocks in the global economy.

It's a much better argument than saying, "oh looked what happen in the 1970's lets green light it. "

[Daelak]

That is simply an impossibility. Our credit remains good for now but things can and WILL change to our misfortune. One shouldn't act like the good times will last forever.

No it isn't. This is the perfect opportunity for the US to implement the largest publicly funded infrastructure/STEM/space/bio-tech omnibus bill that stretches decades into the future to take advantage of the anomalous financial position we are in currently. All we would have to do is project out future tax revenues to cover immediate spending in the first two decades. This would ensure US economic supremacy and global hegemony for another century, creating a massive brain drain in other countries, and unprecedented levels of foreign and domestic private investment into our country. Rhetoric about balanced budgets and tax cuts are a farce.

[Theodarzna]

No it isn't. This is the perfect opportunity for the US to implement the largest publicly funded infrastructure/STEM/space/bio-tech omnibus bill that stretches decades into the future to take advantage of the anomalous financial position we are in currently. All we would have to do is project out future tax revenues to cover immediate spending in the first two decades. This would ensure US economic supremacy and global hegemony for another century, creating a massive brain drain in other countries, and unprecedented levels of foreign and domestic private investment into our country. Rhetoric about balanced budgets and tax cuts are a farce.

Sure, right now is a good time. But the idea that we will retain that power forever is laughable. The US won't rule like that and other countries will seek to protect themselves from such aggression by Americans. Making enemies is not a good idea.

[Daelak]

It's a much better argument than saying, "oh looked what happen in the 1970's lets green light it. "

Yeah why would data change your opinion.

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Sure, right now is a good time. But the idea that we will retain that power forever is laughable. The US won't rule like that and other countries will seek to protect themselves from such aggression by Americans. Making enemies is not a good idea.

I didn't say forever, I said for the foreseeable future, because it is in the interest of all countries that the US remain global leader in trade, business, military strength, and culture. It isn't aggression, it's simply absolute supremacy.

[Dextroden]

That isn't a compelling counter argument. Considering that US debt is the most safest and sought after financial instrument, we have an unlimited credit rating, this is why the conservative moniker of "unfunded" liabilities of our entitlement programs aren't causing cataclysmic shocks in the global economy.

Oh god. Pay it with more debt? Phenomenal.

[Vizardlorde]

The big thing you're missing here is the extremely skilled jobs we are going to see going away.

Specifically doctors.

It'll start with surgical doctors being replaced by AI robots that are hundreds if not thousands of times more accurate, can perform a surgery with minimal invasion and not forget anything inside the patient.

After that it's just a short step towards general care which will be ushered in as well through the double whammy of big data and more use of the human genome.

If you're wearing a fitbit or mapping runs or have a treadmill with wifi and a profile saved. It's all going to big data, it's all being analyzed and figured out for optimization. It sounds strange but we are pushing towards an even faster technologically driven evolution. Every single person that contributes another data point drives us that much closer and as scanning improves we'll basically step on a scale that will weigh us, scan us, give us body composition, analyze our health score in comparison to global average and have access to our genetic history to start pre-medicating against diseases and conditions we are ancestrally susceptible to.

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If your entire ambition for life is to make minimum wage and stay at home by yourself, well, have fun with that.

Enjoy only being able to afford a home in the sticks or being stuck in a really shitty apartment. Have a great life alone unable to support a partner or children. Remember to smile at the early onset stroke or heart attack from not moving and having blood clots develop in your legs. Take pleasure in knowing you had an entirely equal chance as everyone else in your country to better yourself and you squandered it by being lazy while others went out and saw the country if not the world and got educations and jobs they were passionate about.

My dad is a civil engineer from a foreign country , a licensed general contractor and a licensed plumber. The reason why he has not left his warehouse job is because if his ventuure of going on his own fails he would not only lose his 16/hr job but would also find it difficult to get another one at the same pay. I argue that with UBI people would take more risks with their careers and do what they like rather than jobs they hate due financial stability.

[Dicedspam]

Lol UBI....Tax the robots that replace jobs.

UBI is rediculous.

At one point the lack of motivation and excess tax will outweigh the cost of innovation. If I work to become successful why would I want to pay over 60% tax? For the good of humanity? Like anyone else cares about me...Humans are selfish, jealous creatures....It's always about the money.

[kasuke06]

Yeah why would data change your opinion.

Nearly 50 year old data, on a very small scale. yeah, let's just plug that right into a nation with massive, crippling debt!

[Daelak]

Oh god. Pay it with more debt? Phenomenal.

What's the problem? You do know that if the US economy fails, as would the rest of the world's? There is no downside risk to investing in 21st century technology, energy, infrastructure, education, STEM, however the opportunity cost is incredibly high, in the hundreds of trillions, for the US to rely on private investment to push the global economy into a new paradigm.