[TV] Marvel's Iron Fist

[Gallahadd]

2> Iron Fist is not a top-tier Marvel hero.

No one said he was... What they said is he's one of the best martial artists in Marvel, which is correct. The fights in Iron Fist were decent, but they weren't anywhere near the level that they should have been at. I've seen better fights in Daredevil, Arrow and Agents of SHIELD, and that's just not right.

[Stormcall]

A few points;

1> I disagree the fight scenes were "shitty". Just not "amazing".

2> Iron Fist is not a top-tier Marvel hero. There are dozens of Marvel superheroes that could easily kick his ass, in the comics. He's a top-shelf martial artist, with some relatively minor energy control powers. If those heroes are stupid enough to get into a fist fight with Danny, and decide not to use their powers, then Danny has the advantage, but Iron Man is just going to fly around and blast Danny into oblivion. Strange will do basically anything he wants. Thor is, well, a god. And Hulk beats everyone, if you keep pissing him off. Iron Fist works fine at his own level, but it's on par with the other Defenders, not the big guns like the Avengers.

Yes, but there are NOT many people in the comics who can kick his ass simply based on skill. Every character I mentioned, from the MCU depiction, could totally beat the holy fucking shit out of Iron Fist based SOLELY on their hand to hand skill levels. That's why I didn't mention Hulk or Thor or Iron Man who would kick his ass by virtue of being basically invincible/unreachable. Based on what we have seen, Dr. Strange would beat Iron Fist using ABSOLUTELY NO MAGIC. Purely hand to hand, the skill levels we saw of Dr. fucking Strange in the MCU shows HIM as a better martial artist than Iron Fist. That simply should not be, but it is. We got better martial arts scenes out of Dr. Strange than we did out of Iron Fist.

Seriously, did you read the post you're replying to? Cause it seems like you did not, since you are arguing against a point that was never being made. I never said Iron Fist was the strongest hero. I never said he stood a chance against Hulk, Thor, or Iron Man. I said he was the most skilled FIGHTER in the Marvel universe. But in the MCU as we've seen it, numerous other heroes have displayed FAR greatest skill in pure hand to hand combat, no powers necessary. Iron Fist in the comics can beat Cap, he can beat Bucky, and he can sure as fuck beat Dr. Strange in a pure hand to hand fight. But in the MCU...all 3 of those guys would kick his ass based on what we've seen, no shield, no weapons, no magic necessary.

[ItachiZaku]

No one said he was... What they said is he's one of the best martial artists in Marvel, which is correct. The fights in Iron Fist were decent, but they weren't anywhere near the level that they should have been at. I've seen better fights in Daredevil, Arrow and Agents of SHIELD, and that's just not right.

May and Skye would kick Colleen and Dan's asses per the shows.

[Endus]

Yes, but there are NOT many people in the comics who can kick his ass simply based on skill. Every character I mentioned, from the MCU depiction, could totally beat the holy fucking shit out of Iron Fist based SOLELY on their hand to hand skill levels. That's why I didn't mention Hulk or Thor or Iron Man who would kick his ass by virtue of being basically invincible/unreachable. Based on what we have seen, Dr. Strange would beat Iron Fist using ABSOLUTELY NO MAGIC. Purely hand to hand, the skill levels we saw of Dr. fucking Strange in the MCU shows HIM as a better martial artist than Iron Fist. That simply should not be, but it is. We got better martial arts scenes out of Dr. Strange than we did out of Iron Fist.

Seriously, did you read the post you're replying to? Cause it seems like you did not, since you are arguing against a point that was never being made. I never said Iron Fist was the strongest hero. I never said he stood a chance against Hulk, Thor, or Iron Man. I said he was the most skilled FIGHTER in the Marvel universe. But in the MCU as we've seen it, numerous other heroes have displayed FAR greatest skill in pure hand to hand combat, no powers necessary. Iron Fist in the comics can beat Cap, he can beat Bucky, and he can sure as fuck beat Dr. Strange in a pure hand to hand fight. But in the MCU...all 3 of those guys would kick his ass based on what we've seen, no shield, no weapons, no magic necessary.

Even then, you're now comparing production value rather than the character. You can't really cross-compare things like that.

You also need to recall that we're seeing Danny in his early days; he's got a lot of growing to do, character-wise.

Look at Daredevil; in the show, he gets the shit beaten out of him by mooks on the regular. That basically doesn't really happen, in the comics. While he was more acrobatic about getting the crap beaten out of him, he got beaten way worse than Danny ever did, when facing similar enemies (the Hand, in particular). Comparing the appearance of their fights and trying to extrapolate character (not actor) combat skill is a bit silly.

[Gallahadd]

May and Skye would kick Colleen and Dan's asses per the shows.

Yup, In their current states, I would bet on May, Daisy, Oliver, Thea or Sunny over Danny in a HEARTBEAT...

And that's just not right.

[Stormcall]

Even then, you're now comparing production value rather than the character. You can't really cross-compare things like that.

You also need to recall that we're seeing Danny in his early days; he's got a lot of growing to do, character-wise.

Look at Daredevil; in the show, he gets the shit beaten out of him by mooks on the regular. That basically doesn't really happen, in the comics. While he was more acrobatic about getting the crap beaten out of him, he got beaten way worse than Danny ever did, when facing similar enemies (the Hand, in particular). Comparing the appearance of their fights and trying to extrapolate character (not actor) combat skill is a bit silly.

There's a big difference, though. Daredevil didn't start out super trained, he had to build up the skill level he has now. Prior to deciding to become Daredevil, he didn't have ANY martial arts training, just some familiarity with boxing. Danny OTOH spent the 15 years PRIOR TO HIS DEBUT building up his skill level. He is literally supposed to be one of the world's absolutely best martial artists from the second he debuts. But the fight scenes make it look like he's taken a handful of karate classes, and is fighting some opponents who are either even worse fighters than he is, or are deliberately holding back because they have to lose to the show's hero.

And no, I'm not comparing production values, I'm comparing TRAINING AND SKILL. The Raid wasn't a big expensive movie, neither was S.P.L., Close Range, or for that matter, John Wick. But in terms of pure hand to hand skill, Danny would get his ass absolutely decimated by the heroes of those movies...or for that matter, most of the bad guys as well...hell, some of the random mooks from The Raid look like far more skilled fighters than Danny. Here, watch this sequence:



These guys are some random ass thugs working in a drug lab, but the guy that shows up to fight at 1:24, the dude who shows up at 2:41, and the guy fighting on the table at 3:05 all appear to be much more skilled and highly trained fighters than Danny. And the reason for that? Cause those dudes are actual trained martial artists, while Marvel cast a dude with NO fucking fighting skills whatsoever to play the world's greatest martial artist, and then, after doing so, apparently didn't even give him much of a chance to try and at least learn some basic skills(or to wear his mask, so that a stunt double with actual training could sub in). So what we get in Iron Fist is exactly what we have-a guy who, clearly and obviously has no fighting skills, trying to do fight scenes.

[Endus]

There's a big difference, though. Daredevil didn't start out super trained, he had to build up the skill level he has now. Prior to deciding to become Daredevil, he didn't have ANY martial arts training, just some familiarity with boxing. Danny OTOH spent the 15 years PRIOR TO HIS DEBUT building up his skill level. He is literally supposed to be one of the world's absolutely best martial artists from the second he debuts. But the fight scenes make it look like he's taken a handful of karate classes, and is fighting some opponents who are either even worse fighters than he is, or are deliberately holding back because they have to lose to the show's hero.

I'm going to repeat a point.

Danny pretty handily defeats his opponents throughout the series. He takes very little injury, while facing opponents who are, largely, more-skilled and more-dangerous than those faced by Daredevil (to use that as a comparison point). You're making this judgement not on the character's lack of skill, but the actor's. You can't argue that Danny Rand isn't heavily trained, just because Finn Jones isn't.

You can't claim that the character would get his ass handed to him by characters in other films, based on the skill levels of the actors. You're bleeding the actor's reality into the character they're representing. It's like saying you can't take a villain seriously because you know the actor hasn't actually murdered anyone.

[Svifnymr]

There's a big difference, though. Daredevil didn't start out super trained, he had to build up the skill level he has now. Prior to deciding to become Daredevil, he didn't have ANY martial arts training, just some familiarity with boxing.

You sure about that? Pretty sure Stick trained him to be a Hand Killing Machine, but it's been a while.

[Ilikegreenfire]

You sure about that? Pretty sure Stick trained him to be a Hand Killing Machine, but it's been a while.

Stick left just after he finished Matts sensory training, before the combat stuff. Stick got too attached and didn't want to pull Matt into the hand shit

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Iornfists fights just didnt hold a candle to dd tho it doesnt have anything to do with character skill but rather how the fights were shot. Dds actor trained in boxing and other martial arts for the part, they only used a stunt double for flips and shit so fights felt real. You can tell this didn't happen in If tho sadly.

[Stormcall]

I'm going to repeat a point.

Danny pretty handily defeats his opponents throughout the series. He takes very little injury, while facing opponents who are, largely, more-skilled and more-dangerous than those faced by Daredevil (to use that as a comparison point). You're making this judgement not on the character's lack of skill, but the actor's. You can't argue that Danny Rand isn't heavily trained, just because Finn Jones isn't.

Except his opponents don't actually look skilled when they're losing to someone as obviously unskilled as Danny. It looks like they're losing cause, well, story says they lose. You can SAY Danny Rand is as heavily skilled as you want, but when he's played by a guy who can't fight, it makes Danny look like a BITCH, not a skilled fighter. If you cast me in American Sniper playing Chris Kyle, a great sniper, but if I can't fucking shoot a rifle for shit, it IS going to convey the IMAGE that Chris Kyle can't shoot for shit either.

See, to destroy your second example, an actor doesn't have to murder people to at least LOOK like they're murdering people. See, they can effectively CONVEY that they are killers without actually killing. Those dudes in that video clip I posted above? I assume they've never knifed anyone to death, but due to effect and such, they can convincingly make it LOOK like they are knifing someone to death, so you accept that the character just stabbed a dude in the throat and left him to bleed out on the floor. But fights DO NOT WORK LIKE THAT. Finn can't fucking fight to save his life, so fight scenes with him in NO WAY conveys the image or impression that Danny is an effective fighter. Because the actor cannot fight, the IMAGE we see is of a CHARACTER who cannot fight, and makes the CHARACTER look like an untrained, unskilled, shitbird.

[Endus]

Except his opponents don't actually look skilled when they're losing to someone as obviously unskilled as Danny. It looks like they're losing cause, well, story says they lose.

Again, you're literally complaining that Finn Jones isn't the character he portrays. And I'm going to point out, again, that he's an actor.

[Greevir]

Again, you're literally complaining that Finn Jones isn't the character he portrays. And I'm going to point out, again, that he's an actor.

So he's a bad actor then.

[Endus]

So he's a bad actor then.

Possibly miscast, certainly not given enough time to train.

I'm just making the point that it doesn't mean Danny is somehow a "bad fighter". It just means his skill wasn't communicated effectively through Finn's portrayal.

[Ilikegreenfire]

Possibly miscast, certainly not given enough time to train.

I'm just making the point that it doesn't mean Danny is somehow a "bad fighter". It just means his skill wasn't communicated effectively through Finn's portrayal.

This is what it is. They either need to get Finn up to snuff or recast to someone who can do the role justice. Normally i hate recasts but i wouldn't blink an eye of to gave us DD caliber fight scenes.

I mean imo Finn isn't even that iconic in his own show, the only one who feels iconic imho is Jessica Henwick. Comparatively i cant see anyone but Charlie(DD) Vincent(Kingpin) Jon(Punisher) and Elden(Foggy) playing their respective characters.

[Stormcall]

Again, you're literally complaining that Finn Jones isn't the character he portrays. And I'm going to point out, again, that he's an actor.

He's an actor, but he CANNOT ACT AS A FIGHTER. The role of an actor is to portray a role. If you are playing a character who only speaks Spanish...you, as an actor, needs to learn some fucking Spanish. If you are playing a character who is supposed to be some megahot buff hunk ladykiller....you need to cut the donuts out of your diet and make sure you're hitting the gym. No matter how hot you TELL me a character is supposed to be, if what you show me is some obese guy who looks like he hasn't bathed in a month, it's going to make the CHARACTER seem like a fat slob, not a hunk. And thus, if you're playing a character who is supposed to be one of the best fighters in the world...you need to learn some fight skills(you know, like Chris Evans and Keanu Reeves did?). Finn is NOT effectively portraying the role of an expert martial artist, because, well, you can't ACT martial arts without some, you know, actual martial arts training. The show is telling me Danny Rand is a great fighter. It is not showing me he is a great fighter.

[Shadowferal]

Possibly miscast, certainly not given enough time to train.

I'm just making the point that it doesn't mean Danny is somehow a "bad fighter". It just means his skill wasn't communicated effectively through Finn's portrayal.

Finn definitely lacks grace for a character that supposedly lived a life of "art." (This is a case where the producers likely thought they could just shine the show through via film shots and stuntmen, but that obviously just didn't work)
IF was a badass in improvisation and adaptability when it came to fighting.

[Jotaux]

I actually think the fight scenes made it look like Iron fist was unbeatable. Everything was very smooth and it looked like it took no effort on Danny's part.

[Endus]

I actually think the fight scenes made it look like Iron fist was unbeatable. Everything was very smooth and it looked like it took no effort on Danny's part.

That's sort of what I was getting at earlier by pointing out that Danny doesn't really take major hits, other than that one cut that he has to get stitched up. Compare to Daredevil, who gets the shit beaten out of him on the regular. The implication I took from this, combined with Danny's relative nonaggression, was that Danny holds back. He uses as much force as he needs to, and no more. So he's not going hog wild on mooks because he doesn't NEED to. The fancy shit just isn't necessary.

Maybe Netflix is being pushed with a schedule they couldn't really meet, but given the broad success of the shows, I'm willing to overlook a few missteps in the long run.

[ItachiZaku]

The implication I took from this, combined with Danny's relative nonaggression, was that Danny holds back. He uses as much force as he needs to, and no more. So he's not going hog wild on mooks because he doesn't NEED to. The fancy shit just isn't necessary.

That was the impression and method of Itachi Uchiha's madness from Naruto. They play their role, win the fights and move on.

The one issue with Dan though, is that if he's suppose to be the Hand killer, he should be killing. Davos is pissy that Dan left his post, but if he merely stands there and waits to play defense, then the Hand will never, ever stop coming. By taking the offensive, he can actually taken them out (in theory). When you are attacked by 12 guys with hatchets, you need to be able to disable each as quickly as possible, or you (and Joy) DIE. Fighting your honey bunnies students, you don't want to kill them either. That outsider thing still sitting in Dan's belly has him not having a killer instinct, when that's exactly what he should have. He needs some Frank Castle in his life.

[Endus]

That was the impression and method of Itachi Uchiha's madness from Naruto. They play their role, win the fights and move on.

The one issue with Dan though, is that if he's suppose to be the Hand killer, he should be killing. Davos is pissy that Dan left his post, but if he merely stands there and waits to play defense, then the Hand will never, ever stop coming. By taking the offensive, he can actually taken them out (in theory). When you are attacked by 12 guys with hatchets, you need to be able to disable each as quickly as possible, or you (and Joy) DIE. Fighting your honey bunnies students, you don't want to kill them either. That outsider thing still sitting in Dan's belly has him not having a killer instinct, when that's exactly what he should have. He needs some Frank Castle in his life.

I'm not sure that underscoring one of the strongest themes of the show and claiming that it's "wrong" is in any way an argument. Danny was told he had to destroy the Hand. What he's realized is that the Hand is made up of people, and many of those people are decent. Like Colleen. He's fighting the propaganda he was fed for the last 15 years, because that's what it was; propaganda used to turn the Iron Fist into something it isn't. It's why they don't teach about the Iron Fist's ability to heal, which the Hand is clearly aware of (since Bakuto's the one who teaches him how to use it). Given Gao's connection to K'un-Lun, I think it's fairly clear there was a schism there, centuries ago, and the leaders of the Hands are the exiles who lost. But those who remained have perverted the Iron Fist for their own purposes.

Danny's being torn between the Order of the Crane Mother's manipulations, and the Hand's, and also the Meachums', and the entire central theme of the story is that Danny needs to figure out what Danny stands for. Not what other people tell him he should stand for.

The Meachums were wrong in telling him to be a more self-interested businessman. The Order of the Crane Mother was wrong for telling him to kill the Hand indiscriminately, as proven in the character of Colleen. The Hand was wrong for trying to pervert Danny for their own interests (and also the murders/drug trade). All of these groups have tried to control Danny for their own ends, and they were all in the wrong.