Varian or Garrosh, whose Storyline Ended Better?

[Better]

Garrosh was never enthusiastic of the orc's allies from the very first days he came into Azeroth and always believed the orcs were the top-notch race. Even if he would have managed to get the support of his allies, his vision of the Horde remained a strongly orc-centric force with all the other races being entirely subservient to them. Of course his biases and distrust grown the more said allies opposed his views and decisions.

Go watch the stonetalon ending, then explain how this is the same character in any way to the one seen through MoP. His character just kinda flipped into; "Now I'm going to be the bad guy" mode.

[Friendlyimmolation]

Go watch the stonetalon ending, then explain how this is the same character in any way to the one seen through MoP. His character just kinda flipped into; "Now I'm going to be the bad guy" mode.

no, for the last time. He was mad about the murder of students.

[Matthias]

Garrosh had a way more powerful a thought provoking death, because in all honesty...he wasn't really wrong.
Varians death was more sad, and made you just want to kill your enemy your enemy, who was, in that case Gul'dan

There endings both good just in different ways Id have to say

Yea those were the emotions I felt also.

no, for the last time. He was mad about the murder of students.

Meh using a Mana Bomb is still inconsistent with Garrosh's character when you read how he responds to an officer that assaulted the Alliance from behind, when they were already engaged with the Scourge.

Based on what he said, Garrosh really seems to hate such indirect approaches. There isn't enough in his development to display why he would otherwise use such a thing. Not to mention is Theramore ffs, it's been there since forever, and they don't bother anyone, the books state how the situation was a bit more nuance but from an in game perspective nuking Theramore is just a dick move.

[Better]

no, for the last time. He was mad about the murder of students.

The entire scene shows Garrosh in a 100% different light than all of MoP, and all of Tides of War.

" I sent you into Stonetalon Mountains with an army, your orders were to secure this land for the Horde. Instead you laid waste to the land, murdered innocents, children even."
This line shows that Garrosh wanted the land. Destroying the land, in his mind, is a complete waste. This is the opposite of how he treats land in MoP. All of the vale, and in all of his visions it's completely ravaged by Sha.

"I spent a very long time in Northrend Kromgar. I learned much about the Horde in that time. While there a wise old war hero told me something that I would carry with me forever. 'Honor' Kromgar 'no matter how dire the battle, never forsake it.'"
This line shows Garrosh respects the council of others, notice he used the term "wise", and not "strong". Where MoP Garrosh literally cares ONLY for strength.

"Overlord Kromgar, you have disgraced the Horde. You have brought shame to us as a people. By my right as Warchief YOU ARE DISMISSED" "And you <turning to player>."
He speaks for the ENTIRE Horde, he's not upset for the orcs, but rather every single race of the Horde.

Tauren interjects; "Wait Warchief, please, this was the hero responsible for uncovering this corruption. This one tried to stop Kromgar. Have mercy Warchief"

Garrosh; "Mercy? Your wife and child were murdered, your kin wiped out, your home burned to the ground. Mercy? Chieftain on this day I learn from you."
This once again shows Garrosh's willingness to listen to other's council. This was just a Chieftain of a random fairly small Tauren village. The total military might of that village was easily slaughtered by Kromgar's men. So once more, this wasn't a strength thing. He saw the words as wise.

This character is just COMPLETELY different from everything shown after Tides of War. He suddenly ONLY cares about orcs, because reasons. Ignores ALL council. Basically makes an orcish SS for anybody who disagrees with his views on anything. Ravages land with strategic benefit. Has no qualms killing children. It's just a different character all together.

[scrappybristol]

Garrosh had the potential to be so much more than he was.

He could've been a great foil to Anduin by serving as a reminder of what Varian was, a hard warrior who fights for his people.

But in the end he was used as fodder to bring Gul'dan back so Gul'dan could bring Illidan back.

[Zulkhan]

Go watch the stonetalon ending, then explain how this is the same character in any way to the one seen through MoP. His character just kinda flipped into; "Now I'm going to be the bad guy" mode.

Seriously, fuck that "Stonetalon ending". A single scene is not sufficient to pretend Garrosh in Cataclysm was a "completely different character". Everything else between the expansion and Wolfheart is entirely consistent with what Garrosh eventually became. Stonetalon was a "mishap" of Afrasiabi who wanted to put his precious creature on a brighter light. That's why the speech sounds so pompous and pretentious.

But despite that, there's still not an actual incosistence considering how they dealt with Garrosh's character later. They didn't forget Stonetalon, it's addressed how he behaved there and how he acted later compared to that, how Garrosh think and deems certain things right or wrong. They even addressed his own conception of "mercy". It's an elaborated attempt to make Afrasiabi's mess coherent with the rest of the story? Yes it is, but overall it worked.

Fact remains that Garrosh held prejudice on Trolls, Forsaken and Blood Elves specifically from day one, and his relations with Tauren were irrevocably damaged after the unfortunate affair with Cairne. And of course things like Vol'jin's opposition and the Wrath Gate incident did nothing but worsen the situation. He still valued people that licked his boots, regardless of the race. If you read Tides of War, you see how he treated Lor'themar fairly well when he thought the Regent Lord had a Kor'kron-amount of loyalty towards the Warchief, behavior that changed drastically when he realized Lor'themar wasn't a boot licker and this was shown pretty well in MoP.

Meh using a Mana Bomb is still inconsistent with Garrosh's character when you read how he responds to an officer that assaulted the Alliance from behind, when they were already engaged with the Scourge.

That's the key word. You can say something, even try to believe in something but still not fully, genuinely believe what you say. If Garrosh looked disgusted and offended by Blackscar's actions as Thrall was shown to be, you would have a point. But that's not what happened. Garrosh, in his head, thought it was actually a good thing. Where Thrall and Saurfang instinctively reacted that way, Garrosh was secretely in favor of such action, at least before he felt the pressure of Thrall's and Saurfang's gazes upon him. This is exactly how the short-story describes the situation.

With this contradictory and conflictual nature of Garrosh established, there's nothing to be surprised about if he eventually decided to ignore all that once he had the power to do as he pleased (by his right as Warchief) and saw a situation where he saw real benefits in that kind of tactics.

After all, he claimed that the orc's warrior prowess was all the Horde needed to beat the Alliance back in Wolfheart (even though he convenientely boosted his army with Magnataur captured in Northrend, forced to fight for him by threatening their children) and that didn't work out, in fact he suffered an unforgivable humiliation at Varian's hands. After that he started to use firebombs on Ashenvale and even craft a nuke to use in Stonetalon against the Alliance. Then, after all the failures, he claimed an even bigger nuke by attacking and killing Blue Dragons, a weapon way too big to be used without the very backstabbing tactics he once claimed to despise, a weapon that would have gave him the craved edge against his hated adversary (which was the Alliance but on a more personal level it was, in fact, Varian). If you look at it this way, it simply looks like the progression of a character who desired to be a certain way but he just didn't have it in his guts.

Based on what he said, Garrosh really seems to hate such indirect approaches. There isn't enough in his development to display why he would otherwise use such a thing.

There was no need of development because Garrosh's conflict on that matter was already an established thing. He only needed a strong motivation and right circumstances. The motivation was the numerous amount of failures and defeats he suffered between Cataclysm and Wolfheart. The circumstance was brought by the joining of Malkorok, the Blackrock orc who became Garrosh's closest advisor by his right of boot-licker. It's way too obvious in Tides of War that Malkorok's influence was instrumental in the change of Garrosh's politics and actions. At the very beginning is Malkorok stressing the fact that every Horde member had to be "watched" and Garrosh simply listens his "advice".

Not to mention is Theramore ffs, it's been there since forever, and they don't bother anyone, the books state how the situation was a bit more nuance but from an in game perspective nuking Theramore is just a dick move.

We're discussing lore here, not game perspectives. And shit, even in game you see how Theramore troops fucking storm into the Barrens and try to bring down the Great Gate to foold into Mulgore.

Garrosh's goal in Tides of War wasn't Theramore, Kalimdor was, finishing what he started with the Night Elves but doing it in a way that would have worked. Eliminating Theramore in the way he did was intended to remove a great obstacle towards that goal but also break the Alliance's spirit and any potential attempt of theirs to oppose him once again, as they did in Wolfheart. It didn't really went that way of course, but sure as hell it makes sense.

This line shows that Garrosh wanted the land. Destroying the land, in his mind, is a complete waste. This is the opposite of how he treats land in MoP. All of the vale, and in all of his visions it's completely ravaged by Sha.

Maybe because at that time, much like in Tides of War where Garrosh aimed at conquering a whole continent, his efforts were specifically dedicated in claiming certain territories. But what Garrosh always desired was claiming the whole Azeroth under the Horde banner. He progressively set goals in line with his means and possibilities, so of course if he aimed to conquer a certain land he wanted that land intact. But at the time of the 5.4 Garrosh is fully convinced to have claimed the power to obtain what he always desired, aka the whole of Azeroth. The Vale may have mattered to him at the very beginning of MoP, when he went there to claim Pandaria, much like he tried (and failed) with Kalimdor in Tides of War. But that became a clearly irrelevant goal the moment Garrosh realized Pandaria had more than just resources to offer, it had raw power he could exploit to pursue far greater ambitions.

His visions count relatively as the Sha corruption infests a war field, the capital of the enemy. But yes, Garrosh's recklessness, according to the devs, would have reduced Azeroth into an Outland 2.0, most likely because of him losing control over the power he claimed to dominate. Way to prove to which tragic extents his ambitions, fears and obsessions would have brought him and everyone who chose to follow him.

This line shows Garrosh respects the council of others, notice he used the term "wise", and not "strong". Where MoP Garrosh literally cares ONLY for strength.

And if you read The Shattering you'll see how the very last thing he did to Saurfang before leaving Northrend was disrespect him, mocking his grief for the loss he recently endured (Dranosh). Such reverence towards the "wise old war hero". I can't say if that's deliberate lying or Garrosh genuinely cared about Saurfang's advice but bent it over his idea of what being "honorable" meant, which seems to be the case given how Garrosh keeps blabbering about "honor" until the end. Surely the respect he shows for Saurfang is inconsistent with the rest of his development but that's not the fault of MoP or Tides of War, it's the fault of the Stonetalon ending itself.

He speaks for the ENTIRE Horde, he's not upset for the orcs, but rather every single race of the Horde.

That's bollocks. "You have brought shame to us as a people" he clearly speaks for the orcs, the orcs are his people. And for Garrosh the orcs are the Horde. The others are just allies at most.

This once again shows Garrosh's willingness to listen to other's council. This was just a Chieftain of a random fairly small Tauren village. The total military might of that village was easily slaughtered by Kromgar's men. So once more, this wasn't a strength thing. He saw the words as wise.

Yep, he "listened" said advice and interpreted it in the way that fit him most, apparently. Much like as he seemed to do with Saurfang. In Tides of War Garrosh, in fact, speaks of mercy and gloats himself about being a "merciful" person.

This character is just COMPLETELY different from everything shown after Tides of War. He suddenly ONLY cares about orcs, because reasons. Ignores ALL council. Basically makes an orcish SS for anybody who disagrees with his views on anything. Ravages land with strategic benefit. Has no qualms killing children. It's just a different character all together.

Again, a single and badly written scene does not redeem the whole character. If this was a constant of Cataclysm and even Wolfheart you would have a point but it isn't. It just makes it look as nothing but Afrasiabi's screw up. Garrosh always and only cared about orcs, there's a not a single instance where his vision is even barely close to Thrall's. To him the orcs are the Horde's core and "anyone with the courage to stand with them" (as he says in MoP) is a welcomed ally, as long said ally accept his place under his orc overlords. When it truly mattered Garrosh never accepted the council of anyone who didn't lick his boots, that's why Malkorok became Garrosh's exclusive advisor in MoP. From where do you think Garrosh got his Gestapo-like politics? It's Malkorok saying straight and clear that Garrosh needed to "watch" the whole Horde because no one could be trusted. If Garrosh already had some obsessions and fears of his, Malkorok's influence made them grew to the sky.

And when exactly Garrosh killed children? Heck, when Ishi screams the desire to slaughter Alliance babies Garrosh reminds him that killing and murder are different things and that he should have focused his hatred on the Horde's enemies instead. That's quite consistent with Garrosh's disgust of Krom'gar's actions back in Stonetalon.

- - - Updated - - -

Garrosh had the potential to be so much more than he was.

He could've been a great foil to Anduin by serving as a reminder of what Varian was, a hard warrior who fights for his people.

But in the end he was used as fodder to bring Gul'dan back so Gul'dan could bring Illidan back.

He was used as fodder because the bulk of his story was done after SoO, with War Crimes just clearing out some final aspects of his character and development.

I have to understand why the only way for Garrosh to "meet his potential" was ending up as a "good" character. It's literally like saying Arthas was wasted potential because he turned bad. It makes as much sense.

[Syegfryed]

The entire scene shows Garrosh in a 100% different light than all of MoP, and all of Tides of War.

" I sent you into Stonetalon Mountains with an army, your orders were to secure this land for the Horde. Instead you laid waste to the land, murdered innocents, children even."
This line shows that Garrosh wanted the land. Destroying the land, in his mind, is a complete waste. This is the opposite of how he treats land in MoP. All of the vale, and in all of his visions it's completely ravaged by Sha.

"I spent a very long time in Northrend Kromgar. I learned much about the Horde in that time. While there a wise old war hero told me something that I would carry with me forever. 'Honor' Kromgar 'no matter how dire the battle, never forsake it.'"
This line shows Garrosh respects the council of others, notice he used the term "wise", and not "strong". Where MoP Garrosh literally cares ONLY for strength.

"Overlord Kromgar, you have disgraced the Horde. You have brought shame to us as a people. By my right as Warchief YOU ARE DISMISSED" "And you <turning to player>."
He speaks for the ENTIRE Horde, he's not upset for the orcs, but rather every single race of the Horde.

Tauren interjects; "Wait Warchief, please, this was the hero responsible for uncovering this corruption. This one tried to stop Kromgar. Have mercy Warchief"

Garrosh; "Mercy? Your wife and child were murdered, your kin wiped out, your home burned to the ground. Mercy? Chieftain on this day I learn from you."
This once again shows Garrosh's willingness to listen to other's council. This was just a Chieftain of a random fairly small Tauren village. The total military might of that village was easily slaughtered by Kromgar's men. So once more, this wasn't a strength thing. He saw the words as wise.

This character is just COMPLETELY different from everything shown after Tides of War. He suddenly ONLY cares about orcs, because reasons. Ignores ALL council. Basically makes an orcish SS for anybody who disagrees with his views on anything. Ravages land with strategic benefit. Has no qualms killing children. It's just a different character all together.

great points, i fell this way too

People don't like Garrosh and try with any means, disrupt and humiliate his character prior cata, its obvious blizzard change his mind and his values, still people try to say he was the same, inadmissible, he could be racist, dump, hot headed, warmonger, but He was never disloyal or dishonorable

When vol'jin said so much shit to him, he did nothing, because he cares of the horde, even if he would do it, he would kill him with his hands, not sending assassin

- - - Updated - - -

I have to understand why the only way for Garrosh to "meet his potential" was ending up as a "good" character. It's literally like saying Arthas was wasted potential because he turned bad. It makes as much sense.

Arthas become a Lichking

Garrosh was a meaning to wod, to be a end for Legion, WASTED

[Kelathos]

I am Horde, but even I am proud of Varian for his final stand.
Not to discount how incredible it was to get a final fight between Garrosh and Thrall, but Blizzard one upped themselves and the Orc characters with the royal family.

[Zulkhan]

People don't like Garrosh and try with any means, disrupt and humiliate his character prior cata, its obvious blizzard change his mind and his values, still people try to say he was the same, inadmissible, he could be racist, dump, hot headed, warmonger, but He was never disloyal or dishonorable

There's nothing to disrupt and humiliate. Garrosh was a certain way already in WotLK and Cataclysm. Again, if a single questline is all you have to grasp upon to deny that while ignoring everything else, you're just proving my point. It's in WotLK that Saurfang acknowledged Garrosh's methods and views would have pushed the orcs on a dark path. It's in Wolfheart that he enslaved Magnataur and kidnapped their children to make them fight for him. It's in Cataclysm that he shouted his ambitions to make orcs "masters of the world" after Deathwing and the Twilight's Hammer were dealt with. Really, it only requires a small degree of objectivity to see that MoP was his natural progression, especially with Tides of War in the middle showing the circumstances of such change.

And about the whole honor thing, Garrosh just couldn't be the honorable hero some people wanted him to be. To be "honorable" you need to follow that code by suppressing your own desires. Orgrim was an honorable Warchief because he was able to do just that. Garrosh was never like him, not even close. He failed, just like Arthas, to keep his selfish desires in check and no person can be "honorable" if, despite all the good intentions, the only thing he truly cares about is himself. And this wasn't a big surprise, in numerous instances it was shown Garrosh's self-centered and vain nature (like when he called for ostentatious parties celebrating his greatness everytime he won some battle) and his whole idea of "honor" just followed that nature, like when he was pissed about Magatha "stealing" his duel with Cairne and yet doing absolutely nothing to help Baine in opposing her.

It's this "disrupting and humiliating"? Because it just seems the lore as it was told all along. Go and point out something wrong or bogus. I dare you.

The only thing worth saying about Garrosh's "honor" is the fact that he genuinely dislikes to involve defenseless people in his battles, probably because of Saurfang's influence (considered how back in Northrend, Garrosh pretty much condoned the slaughter of draenei children) and that remained a constant in MoP. Not because of empathy or mercy, of course, but because he indeed believes there's no "glory" in killing non-combatants. Even he can't brag about the greatness of his victories if these weren't claimed over true and worthy opponents.

When vol'jin said so much shit to him, he did nothing, because he cares of the horde

Or maybe because doesn't sound convenient killing 2 Horde leaders in the span of a few months.

even if he would do it, he would kill him with his hands, not sending assassin

You know, Vol'jin's exact mistake was believing that himself, that's why he fell to Garrosh's trap. But Garrosh proved to be unpredictable, especially after he got Malkorok as adviser.

Arthas become a Lichking

Garrosh was a meaning to wod, to be a end for Legion, WASTED

So Garrosh was wasted because he didn't become a demi-god? Different stories are different. Again, the bulk of his story was done after SoO. War Crimes and WoD simply gave it a definitive closure.

And to those saying that Garrosh's story is not done and he needs to be ressed, Metzen once said that Arthas' story is done and that he does deserve to "burn in hell". If that's true for Arthas, is definitely true for Garrosh as well. One does not deserve redemption more than the other.

[caervek]

I personally didn't like either but voted Garrosh as it was less bad.

Garrosh just felt like a failed character that Blizzard didn't know what to do with so they turned him insane and turned him into a failed villain. It would be like if Anakin Skywalker carried on being a bitch after becoming Darth Vader, he wouldn't be menacing/scary/etc just sad. I almost felt bad putting Garrosh down in SoO.

His final Battle with Thrall however was cool, and gave Thrall some excellent storyline evolution, so that puts it ahead of Varian IMO.

Varian didn't feel failed but feels like a wasted character, I mean lets sum it up, he arrived in WotLK, acted like a jerk for the most part, finally became borderline cool in MoP, did nothing in WoD (playing second fiddle to the player character really) then died at the start of Legion. That wouldn't be too bad except for two things, firstly he died in the same event as Tirion Fordring, a cross factional and bigger (in strictly WoW terms) character who has had much more of an impact on both WoW and the journey of the player character than Varian, this meant that Varian's death sort of overshadowed Tirion's for alliance players (in game terms) and also that for longtime WoW players Tirion's eclipsed Varians (in real terms).

Secondly, there were multiple named alliance heroes on that airship that could have made the sacrifice play, why did Varian have to hog it? Especially as his story could have gone further. Hell if Gelbin had been the one to jump off it could have finally cemented Gnomes as more than just a comedy race and a valuable member of the alliance, finally given him something of note in pretty much his entire WoW story, had a profound impact on Varian giving him the character development he never got before his death, and maybe even affected the player in a way Varian's death didn't.

[BigSarge04]

To me, it kinda depends on a lot of factors, and how you view what happened. At first I'm thinking Varian, he sacrificed himself to save his people(technically), whileas Garrosh died becuase he fought and lost to Thrall, but Garrosh did what he thought was right in Pandiaria, and he wasnt really a leader, and was untested. If Varian and Garrosh were made King/Warchief at the same time in their citie or whatever, it'd be more fair to compare IMO. But Varian's story to me, gave me feels, and that one has to win it for me.

[Cedon]

Varion's was better because he was a hero who sacrificed himself for his people. Without his sacrifice, Greymane and the other Alliance leaders would have died and thus crippled them. His death also gave the Alliance a point of rallying. While some of it is misdirected at the Horde for now, they now face the Legion with renewed vigor and a taste for vengeance.

Garrosh sacrificed his people to be a hero. He can blame Thrall all he wants, but if you hang out in Warsong Hold in Borrean Tundra and listen to him talk with Saurfang, you would know he was giving hints of his instability long before. Saurfang point-blank tells him if he thinks that Garrosh is leading the Orcs down the same road his father did during the Legion days, he'd kill him. Not to mention his treachery at sending the Forsaken to die in what was supposed to be a suicide attack on Gilneas.

[Zulkhan]

Garrosh just felt like a failed character that Blizzard didn't know what to do with so they turned him insane and turned him into a failed villain. It would be like if Anakin Skywalker carried on being a bitch after becoming Darth Vader, he wouldn't be menacing/scary/etc just sad.

And yet that gives the very consistence to the character Garrosh's so accused to lack, proving he never truly changed from his pitiful days in Nagrand, he merely built a thick shell around his true persona. And I wouldn't say Garrosh wasn't menacing overall, he may have been a crybaby deep inside but his obsessions and determination built a fairly imposing exterior, notably towards those that didn't know him that well.

Secondly, there were multiple named alliance heroes on that airship that could have made the sacrifice play, why did Varian have to hog it?

To progress Anduin's character of course. The Alliance storyline is literally built around that in Legion.

Garrosh sacrificed his people to be a hero. He can blame Thrall all he wants, but if you hang out in Warsong Hold in Borrean Tundra and listen to him talk with Saurfang, you would know he was giving hints of his instability long before. Saurfang point-blank tells him if he thinks that Garrosh is leading the Orcs down the same road his father did during the Legion days, he'd kill him. Not to mention his treachery at sending the Forsaken to die in what was supposed to be a suicide attack on Gilneas.

Praise the gods, someone get it.

[Syegfryed]

There's nothing to disrupt and humiliate.

i don't wanna start a discussion with you who obvious don't like Garrosh, already showed in other threats, you rly dislike him, and i can do nothing, you have a point of view, and i have another, end