Flying Next Expack

[Vorecien]

It's about character progression and making flight another layer of the gameplay

You want incremental rewards? Okay; like what? I don't think levitation and gliding is the way to go. What else? :3

[SirCowdog]

You want incremental rewards? Okay; like what? I don't think levitation and gliding is the way to go. What else? :3

Well, ultimately I want the entire game world to be built using a non-simplistic design that can have quests which aren't broken and trivialized the moment they're exposed to a player with access to flight. You know, how they used to do before WoD.

But there doesn't seem to be any reason why flying CAN'T use the vehicle system in order to allow for it's core mechanics to change as well. And vehicles can have anything from the bouncy jumping flight of the "JOUST!" quest from Cata, to working like Emerald Winds, to simply having a fuel/fatigue bar. Using the vehicle system Flight could have constant forward momentum, preventing hovering. They could also give regular ground mounts different abilities while they're at it.

I'm not going to go over all the possible ways this simple switch could completely solve every problem with the mount system, because it's been gone over a thousand times, and even within this thread. And besides, it looks like we might not even see any more open world content release in Legion, as it's suggested by the interview yesterday where Ion said "Anyone who you see flying right now has done the outdoor content of Legion.". It would seem to imply future patches are going to just be dungeons and raids.

[SirCowdog]

That's the difference. It's a quest. And no, that kind of ridiculousness does not exist in game as all-time-possibility. I clearly understand that World of WarCraft should not be Microsoft Flight Simulator.

/facepalm

Literally what I just said in the post you quoted:

""Don't try to pretend that I want the entire game turned into nothing but these types of bombing run quests."

You're not even attempting to understand or comprehend what's being said. You're just inventing reasons to avoid the arguments being made.

I call them features that are part of non-flight game which is why they are fun.

Purely subjective. Is ground the only way that fun can exist? The examples of WotLK through MoP would dispute that rather thoroughly.

I don't hate flight. I think it was not the best how it was used before. It doesn't ruin every piece of WoW. It can be part of the game but not like before.

Uhg...it's like I'm talking to a wall. Where did I suggest that it should be used like before? The entire premise of my point of view is that both flight and the open world design need to change and update.

It is. You are just not accepting it but it's widely common that games are made to be human friendly meaning that they have relation with real world. Everyone knows that portal is relation to a "door" that gets you somewhere and not relation to being a guitar and you want to play it. Same goes with drakes and flying. It's part of the sky but you can't be always up there because everything in our world is ground based.

There's this thing called imagination. Also, videogames are generally not meant to perfectly simulate real life. Real world physics and rules don't have to apply. Sometimes they do. Sometimes the come just close enough to real life in order to give context, but that doesn't mean we have to completely adhere to them.

You REALLY need a strong dose of thinking outside of the box.

And for the 8 billionth time: I NEVER SAID FLYING NEEDS TO BE 24/7 all time flight simulator super realistic OMG my warrior now can fly like superman!!!!!11!1one.

Christ....

You're either a master level troll or you're just not reading.

Why that matters at all? We used floppy disks 10 years ago but oh look, they are part for museum now.

Oh...so you like analogies? Well...floppy disks upgrades to CDs, which have upgraded to thumb drives, which have upgraded to cloud storage and streaming digital data. Did we just stop using data storage because it got old? No. Then why not upgrade flying in the same way instead of just going back to using floppy disks after 8 months and calling it a reward?

[Aphrel]

I loved Suramar city so im hoping they stick to the formula they had this expansion.

[SirCowdog]

I loved Suramar city so im hoping they stick to the formula they had this expansion.

Many people have suggested that Suramar would have been a perfect opportunity to explain not being able to fly there. The residual energy from the broken shield over the city caused a disruption in the air that would prevent.

Meanwhile, would flying in other areas have ruined suramar's experience?

Also, consider that the way in which you unlock portals as shortcuts every time you complete a part of the Suramar story is EXACTLY the kind of waypoint system that should be used in a design that wasn't intended to have flight. Get rid of flight paths entirely and go with such a system in future expansions if flying isn't going to actually be part of the game while its content is still current.

[-Joker-]

Felstorms are essentially the reason. Just try flying close to Tomb of Sargeras You get cooked in about 3 ticks.

[SirCowdog]

Felstorms are essentially the reason. Just try flying close to Tomb of Sargeras You get cooked in about 3 ticks.

According to Blizzard logic, those felstorms caused too many problems for their ground only game design. So they withheld them for 8 months, and now getting cooked by them is a reward. It's a convenient way to reach the nearest spirit healer!

[WowIsDead64]

Complete nonsense. Serious Sam was never an arcade game, Felix the Cat on the NES doesn't require you to go back and re-kill previous enemies, open world games are not MOBAs and PvP is not forced on you if you don't roll on a PvP server or enter specific PvP zones.

Then you don't want an MMO, WoW is not and never has been the game for you.

Dynamic respawn rates were put in the game during TBC as I've mentioned a few times now.

How crowded can the server be if you weren't playing in the same area as anyone else? I play on a rather modestly sized RP server and there was people all over the place during the WotLK launch. Why do you play on a PvP server if you want to avoid PvP? And finally, those mobs you killed during WotLK will all have respawned a few minutes after you left, I'm afraid you didn't "clear fortress from enemies," you just pretended via killing exactly the same mob 10 times in a row.

You seem to be getting very confused somewhere, are you sure with all the snow, dragons and vikings you're no mistaking WotLK with Skyrim?

I don't know, why it's so hard to understand, but in order to enjoyable for me, ground content should meet following two conditions:
1) It should be ground-friendly.
No matter, how hard do you try to reject, ignore and dismiss this argument, but it's actually self-obvious, that when game developer extensively exploits design, that includes large amounts of artificial vertical obstacles, mountains for example - then this design just obviously implies flying, as major way of transportation.
2) Killing mobs shouldn't be pointless - it should be immersive
And killing mobs on your way from point A to point B instead of just skipping them can be viable only in one case - when you clear your way from point A to point B. And in order to meet this condition, ground content should meet following sub-conditions:
2.1) Respawn rate shouldn't be high, so mobs won't respawn immediately after death. You can't "clear" anything, if it respawns within just 5 seconds. It's just Sisyphean toil.
2.2) There shouldn't be competition. When you clear your way from point A to point B, you have to be sure, that when you will finally get to point B - your goal will still be there. What the point in clearing mobs, who guard some quest item, if other player can just come and steal it? It it's the case - then clearing your way to point B is actually pointless waste of time.

That's it. Nothing complex.

[-Joker-]

According to Blizzard logic, those felstorms caused too many problems for their ground only game design. So they withheld them for 8 months, and now getting cooked by them is a reward. It's a convenient way to reach the nearest spirit healer!

Your ability to read their minds and outline their every move is fascinating. Truly.

[Pony Soldier]

I just returned to WoW after a long break just a few days ago and after seeing what you have to do just to get flying I came to the conclusion that it is just ridiculous. WoD's flying achievement was a pain in the ass too but at least it wasn't split in two parts. I mean a faster ground mount speed isn't eve that helpful because the problem isn't about getting to destinations quickly it's about not having to worry about traversing around a whole canyon just to get where you want to be. I'm all about exploration in games but in WoW's case and as someone who has several alts it gets annoying, to the point where I don't even want to play anymore because I'll die just trying to jump down a cliff to cut some corners a little bit. The first or maybe second time is alright but once you get to the point where you just want to have fun gearing up your alts you stop caring so much about immersing yourself into the world and you just want to get from point A to point B without any inconvenient obstacles.

It's my main focus right now to get flying because I'm at that point of just wanting to get to where I want to go. Normally I wouldn't give a shit if I'm flying or not but there's just so much shit to do now that I couldn't care less about being immersed with the world I just want to gear up my main and then start playing on my alts. Also recently I realized that it's better to have flying because with so many other great games to play recently other than WoW I no longer want to be spending hours and hours on just WoW.

So with all that said, I hope in future expansions they just go back to the "get to max level" way to unlock flying and make it so it's account bound. Hell I'd be fine if we had to get it on each character. It's at least better than being forced to grind content you don't even want to do.

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I don't know, why it's so hard to understand, but in order to enjoyable for me, ground content should meet following two conditions:
1) It should be ground-friendly.
No matter, how hard do you try to reject, ignore and dismiss this argument, but it's actually self-obvious, that when game developer extensively exploits design, that includes large amounts of artificial vertical obstacles, mountains for example - then this design just obviously implies flying, as major way of transportation.
2) Killing mobs shouldn't be pointless - it should be immersive
And killing mobs on your way from point A to point B instead of just skipping them can be viable only in one case - when you clear your way from point A to point B. And in order to meet this condition, ground content should meet following sub-conditions:
2.1) Respawn rate shouldn't be high, so mobs won't respawn immediately after death. You can't "clear" anything, if it respawns within just 5 seconds. It's just Sisyphean toil.
2.2) There shouldn't be competition. When you clear your way from point A to point B, you have to be sure, that when you will finally get to point B - your goal will still be there. What the point in clearing mobs, who guard some quest item, if other player can just come and steal it? It it's the case - then clearing your way to point B is actually pointless waste of time.

That's it. Nothing complex.

I totally agree with this. I've come to the realization that the ground content Blizzard makes is not very ground friendly. You'll be stuck in some canyon and the only way out will be running through hordes of enemies to get to the other side so that you can run up the one and only little side passage that gets you back up. Then even running up that side passage is a pain in the ass because there'll be dozens of more enemies to fight through which brings up the issue that fighting enemies out in the world feels so pointless and feels like they're only there to piss you off. I was in this situation just recently where I was down in some canyon and in order to get back up I had to go up along this passage that was infested with demons. It's such a pain in the ass anymore.

[Deleted]

Except nobody is saying they want flying upon immediately login into an expansion but screw reality huh.... People are happy working towards flying be it doing the levelling requirements or a few achievements BUT people are unhappy having to wait over half a year to work towards it. Part 1 took 2 months max then we had 6 months of unnecessary waiting for Part 2

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No you need to either accept flying is part of WoW and has been for 11 years or go play one of the other MMORPGs that don't have flying

You did not refute his point.. Flying is not required to do ANYTHING in the game.. at all.

[In Ogres We Trust]

Why is this still an issue? Pathfinder is the de facto standard going forward.

[Thage]

You did not refute his point.. Flying is not required to do ANYTHING in the game.. at all.

Technically it's required for questing in Icecrown and Storm Peaks, and to access three dungeons and a raid in Outland, due to the map design. If you're gonna emphasize a word rather than just use it for rhetorical hyperbole, make sure you've got those eggs hatched first.

On-topic: I like Pathfinder, insofar as it exists as a compromise between the diva developers who throw tantrums over everyone not admiring tree_doodad_07 the hundredth time and devs who understand that 8 months into an expansion, players shift into efficiency mode and are largely looking to get from A to B, not admire the texture work on that rock in the middle of the road.

It makes sure you've done everything the way the devs wanted it done, which keeps the prima donnas like Afrasiabi happy, and afterward you can trivialize it all you want on your alts and while knocking out your daily checklist. My only gripe is that it should be something you can push for and fully unlock from day 1, with future patch content like the Broken Shore and Argus given their own, separate Pathfinder achievements (for example, in the wider Broken Isles you're stymied by fel storms which you address as part of the level-cap storylines, in the Shore proper you have to contend with the Legion's air superiority in a quest chain [corollary: in this hypothetical, Legionfall questlines are tied to rep rather than time-gated] as part of the Shore Pathfinder, ditto for Argus). Otherwise, whatever, at least unlocking it in Legion isn't as onerous and grindy as trying to farm through the Draenor reps and dealing with Timbermaw Hold flashbacks the whole time.

[Dhrizzle]

I don't know, why it's so hard to understand, but in order to enjoyable for me, ground content should meet following two conditions:
1) It should be ground-friendly.
No matter, how hard do you try to reject, ignore and dismiss this argument, but it's actually self-obvious, that when game developer extensively exploits design, that includes large amounts of artificial vertical obstacles, mountains for example - then this design just obviously implies flying, as major way of transportation.

Before I answer this could you please explain how the mountains are any more "artificial" than open plains, try to remember that pretty much everything in WoW is "artificial." Other than your desire for the game to be played as quicky and easily as possible, is there any good reason why Blizz shouldn't use (or "exploit" if you prefer) a variety of terrain types including mountains and cliffs?

2) Killing mobs shouldn't be pointless - it should be immersive
And killing mobs on your way from point A to point B instead of just skipping them can be viable only in one case - when you clear your way from point A to point B. And in order to meet this condition, ground content should meet following sub-conditions:
2.1) Respawn rate shouldn't be high, so mobs won't respawn immediately after death. You can't "clear" anything, if it respawns within just 5 seconds. It's just Sisyphean toil.
2.2) There shouldn't be competition. When you clear your way from point A to point B, you have to be sure, that when you will finally get to point B - your goal will still be there. What the point in clearing mobs, who guard some quest item, if other player can just come and steal it? It it's the case - then clearing your way to point B is actually pointless waste of time.

That's it. Nothing complex.

2.1 - good news! Very few places in WoW have such a high respawn rate and with the current state of the game (with regard to how tough open-world enemies are) unending hordes can easily be despatched​ whilst you make your way to safety. I'd say the only places in WoW I would consider "Sisyphean" were in Vanilla (Andorhal and the troggs in the middle of Loch Modan spring to mind) and the beginning of TBC when the dynamic spawn rate was mistuned.

2.2 - bad news! WoW is an MMO which involves players sharing the open world, this means there will always be an element of competition particularly where boss mobs are concerned.

[Deleted]

Technically it's required for questing in Icecrown and Storm Peaks, and to access three dungeons and a raid in Outland, due to the map design. If you're gonna emphasize a word rather than just use it for rhetorical hyperbole, make sure you've got those eggs hatched first.

On-topic: I like Pathfinder, insofar as it exists as a compromise between the diva developers who throw tantrums over everyone not admiring tree_doodad_07 the hundredth time and devs who understand that 8 months into an expansion, players shift into efficiency mode and are largely looking to get from A to B, not admire the texture work on that rock in the middle of the road.

It makes sure you've done everything the way the devs wanted it done, which keeps the prima donnas like Afrasiabi happy, and afterward you can trivialize it all you want on your alts and while knocking out your daily checklist. My only gripe is that it should be something you can push for and fully unlock from day 1, with future patch content like the Broken Shore and Argus given their own, separate Pathfinder achievements (for example, in the wider Broken Isles you're stymied by fel storms which you address as part of the level-cap storylines, in the Shore proper you have to contend with the Legion's air superiority in a quest chain [corollary: in this hypothetical, Legionfall questlines are tied to rep rather than time-gated] as part of the Shore Pathfinder, ditto for Argus). Otherwise, whatever, at least unlocking it in Legion isn't as onerous and grindy as trying to farm through the Draenor reps and dealing with Timbermaw Hold flashbacks the whole time.

I simply pointed out that the poster I responded to neglected to point out a couterargument, just simply rambled on..

I myself love pathfinder. It is the perfect compromise imo

[arel00]

My only gripe is that it should be something you can push for and fully unlock from day 1, with future patch content like the Broken Shore and Argus given their own, separate Pathfinder achievements (for example, in the wider Broken Isles you're stymied by fel storms which you address as part of the level-cap storylines, in the Shore proper you have to contend with the Legion's air superiority in a quest chain [corollary: in this hypothetical, Legionfall questlines are tied to rep rather than time-gated] as part of the Shore Pathfinder, ditto for Argus). Otherwise, whatever, at least unlocking it in Legion isn't as onerous and grindy as trying to farm through the Draenor reps and dealing with Timbermaw Hold flashbacks the whole time.

This is the best idea all around, in my opinion.
I like flying, a lot, because it has a sense of freedom that I enjoy. And it feels powerful. We are damn heroes in WoW, I mean, if I am the Highlord of everything paladin to the point that people like Lady Liadrin are actually my followers, then I should be able to drop down from the sky on my enemies like an unrelenting flame of vengeance. Ahem, talk about immersion.

Anyway, the point being: while I most certainly am part of the "flying crowd", I have no problems with working towards it, and the Legion compromise was quite good. I would however prefer the objective being clear and not "do this then wait until we tell you the rest" like it was this time. As the post I quoted, make it a step-by-step thing, tied into the story, where you unlock flight for your current zones by working in them. Broken Isle flying, then Broken Shore flying, then Argus flying. That's fine.

[WowIsDead64]

Before I answer this could you please explain how the mountains are any more "artificial" than open plains, try to remember that pretty much everything in WoW is "artificial." Other than your desire for the game to be played as quicky and easily as possible, is there any good reason why Blizz shouldn't use (or "exploit" if you prefer) a variety of terrain types including mountains and cliffs?

Without flying Wow is essentially Diablo-like 2D game. You can project whole accessible area onto some plane and then have 2D map of world. And in this case any change of height > some X - is essentially just a wall in this 2D world. And the biggest question is - do we actually need so many walls in a game, that isn't about navigating in mazes? Don't you think, that majority of this walls - just unnecessary artificial obstacles on your route? Remember Vanilla? Mulgore? Barrens? See, how mountains were implemented in the past? No mazes of impassable walls. That's, what I call "ground-friendly content".

Spoiler: 

[SirCowdog]

I agree. Everything should be done that way. So when a new expansion comes you cant pvp or do any sort of PVE content until you tick of a list like pathfinder, and even then you have to wait at least 6 months, after all you should have to earn it!

I can virtually taste the sarcasm....

But to be fair, I think the idea of "earning" things in a MMO is a good one. The main problem with Pathfinder is just one of implementation. I don't think anyone has a problem with putting in work to get flying.

Even TBC's implementation of buying flight for gold was better than Pathfinder. While you got the worst form a flight fairly easily, it also wasn't very good. If you wanted Epic flight where it was actually VERY useful and fast, you had to work to farm the gold to afford it. This is very similar to how gear works. You get the low-end stuff easily, but have to work to progress upwards(with the exception being random drop Legendaries). But with Pathfinder you're not getting anything in-between when you start and when you finally get flying. This is not ideal.

There's a similar problem with how BiS Legendaries are obtained. You either have them or you don't. There are no stages of progress with BiS legendaries. It's too binary. Your character doesn't get better through hard work or time spent, it just drops into your lap all in one go.

I think that Pathfinder COULD work in stages. It probably should work in stages. I've mentioned the examples of the Epic ring and cloak quests from previous expansions. And I believe that such concepts would work VERY well for obtaining flight over the course of the entire lifespan of an expansion's open world content. It would mitigate all the problems with with Pathfinder and how flight harms ground content, but would also retain all of the benefits of making progress feel rewarding.

To contrast, and to get back to Packers01's sarcastic point: Imagine how players would feel if something like Artifacts required 8 months of working on achievements, and were only just now available for use in 7.2. Would people be ok with that kind of implementation? Think about spending the entire first half of the expansion knowing that artifacts were there, dumping AP and AK into them, and doing quests for them, but not actually being able to use them until now.

If anyone says they'd be perfectly fine with that as a "compromise", I will need to hear VERY convincing arguments to support it.

[SirCowdog]

Of course its a lot of sarcasm, I just hate this notion that everything has to be a grind. Pathfinder would be fine with exploring and Loremaster. I don't see how doing 100 WQ or needing to be revered with factions has anything to do with flying.

And like you mentioned about legendaries. How is it I could have lucked my way into BIS by collecting squirrels and cracking nuts but I have to grind for 6 months simply to fly?

It's because the reasoning given by blizzard about having to explore and experience the game from the ground is nothing more than a reasonable-sounding excuse to cover turning Flight into a carrot for players to chase instead of being an active part of the overall experience of WoW. I can understand the part about not wanting to ruin the presentation of the regular questing/leveling experience, even if I disagree with it. But trivializing WQs where we land and auto-group with people to kick squirrels around and steal their nuts? LOL? The explanation just doesn't hold up.

Also probably because Ion or Afrasiabi would be crucified by the community if they were honest enough to come right out and say, "I'm in charge and I don't like flying, so fuck it."

[Coffeh]

I have no problem doing all the quests and exploring every inch of the land and hitting max level to unlock it. But once that's done there is no reason to delay flying further. WoD proved this. Legion has proven this. It's just making people wait for the sake of making people wait. There is no other reason. And sadly Ion likes it this way. So expect to wait another 8+ months after launch to be able to fly next expansion. Which means I won't be buying it. But that's just me.

I don't even insists alts can fly earlier than max level. Having to hit max level on a toon to fly is fine for me. Questing of current content should be the way the devs design it. That would be an actual compromise Blizzard could make. Which means it'll never happen.