"Pay to Win"

**Elim Garak** · 2017-05-10, 05:31 PM

Originally Posted by Skul

Everyone saying WoW has no Pay 2 Win elements when my team sells top end gear to people for gold every week. And these people buying all this gear are definitely buying the gold with RL cash through Blizzard's supported system.

Nothing is pay 2 win there

**Tharkkun** · 2017-05-10, 06:46 PM

Originally Posted by MeHMeH

This is what makes it p2w, when 3rd parties where selling gold it was considered cheating and a bannable offense (it still is).

What you or i might think of these people does not make any difference for the p2w part, nor does the skill they might or might not have.

Pay to win is paying for an advantage over others that isn't obtainable through normal means of playing the game. There's nothing Blizzard is gating behind money.

Players are interacting with other individuals and offering services for in game currency. P L A Y E R S. Not Blizzard. Next you're going to say playing the AH game and earning gold is P2W also.

Players selling battle pets for vast amounts of gold and you purchasing them must also be P2W right?

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Originally Posted by Skul

Everyone saying WoW has no Pay 2 Win elements when my team sells top end gear to people for gold every week. And these people buying all this gear are definitely buying the gold with RL cash through Blizzard's supported system.

There's hundreds of thousands of players who made 5+ gold using Garrisons with a million alts last expansion. Most of them are cashing out their chips. I have close to 2 million from 2 characters. You could've made a killing at the start of Legion as well. Gold is easy as hell to make.

**PraisCthulhu** · 2017-05-10, 08:12 PM

Originally Posted by Vorecien

You're the second person to quote me on this one part. If you read further on, the OP and I came to that conclusion. This was covered like a week ago.

Sorry I missed that post in a 37 page long thread.

**Fabinas** · 2017-05-10, 09:11 PM

Originally Posted by zupf

What if they didn't?

Something that you guys need to finally understand is that pay to win does not only mean having something in the game that immediately puts you at the top of the ladder for money. Getting ingame advantages that can be obtained with outside money is what is already defined as pay to win. It doesn't matter if you can get a little advantage in Elvwynn Forest or in Nighthold. Advantage is advantage and you kids need to grow a pair and just accept that stuff like this is in the game. It doesn't immediately make the game super terrible, but its in there.

Learn to discuss. You claimed one guild decides to buy all the best possible gear from the AH. What if THAT guild earned the gold by playing the game and not by buying tokens? P2W as well? Then any game with any in-game currency is p2w by your example.

Any player playing the game for years is at an advantage compared to a new player. P2W as well? You're the perfect example of not even understanding p2w has one and only definition and not the one you think it is. Like the other two retards in this thread.

**ButterBeast** · 2017-05-10, 09:13 PM

Originally Posted by potis

Cant someone ban you again for stupid posts?

WoW doesnt have a single P2W element.

Pay to win is when game provides gear/damage/buffs with money that are relevant to the active progression of the game.

Rift and earring slots as example.

Buff scrolls in old MMOs back in 2003-2005.

the sad thing is you can still accidently see his threads even though you've muted him long ago.

**MilesMcStyles** · 2017-05-10, 10:07 PM

There is no pay 2 win in WoW

Deleted · 2017-05-11, 04:23 AM

Originally Posted by ComputerNerd

What that just shows very clearly it isn't "perfect",.
It is simply insufficient.
You keep refusing which only proves the point.
You can't.

You say you have defined it elsewhere, but then say the one you have given is perfect.
Contradictory, as you can't have one be perfect but also added to in fragments scattered about the thread.

I am not the one trying to tell someone what pay to win is - or isn't.
I am simply telling you the argument is weak.
You are wanting to believe I am picking fault with the idea that the game is pay to win, when in reality to do that you need a good argument to start with.
It is your poor argument that I am picking fault with, not the original question.

You refuse to define it properly, because you can't.
Nobody who honestly has such a good argument put together would keep refusing to put it down.
You made the argument that wow is pay to win, so you should absolutely define it properly.

I have repeatedly shown how vague and therefore insufficient single word definitions of core parts of the argument are with no context.

Aaaand some more personal attacks while no argumentation what so ever

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Originally Posted by Tharkkun

Pay to win is paying for an advantage over others that isn't obtainable through normal means of playing the game. There's nothing Blizzard is gating behind money.

Players are interacting with other individuals and offering services for in game currency. P L A Y E R S. Not Blizzard. Next you're going to say playing the AH game and earning gold is P2W also.

Players selling battle pets for vast amounts of gold and you purchasing them must also be P2W right?

False, pay to win is paying for an advantage over others that didn't pay. It doesn't have to be unobtainable through other means, if this wasn't the case then we could sell bis gear and it would still not be p2w.

Secondly, it is not about what other players do for gold, it is the fact that blizzard sells them gold that they are able to to this.

If you pay for the gold then yes, then it is pay to win, if you got the gold through playing the game, then not.

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Originally Posted by Elim Garak

Are you intentionally obtuse or something?

IF someone with gold that they didn't buy can do this and it's not p2w - then it doesn't matter if someone else can do this by buying gold. Outcome is the same. Logic 101.

Of course it matters, one buys the gold and the other one plays the game. The buying the gold part is the p2w part, not what you can do with said gold.

**bigbleach** · 2017-05-11, 05:09 AM

Originally Posted by elprofessor

TLDR: with calculation you can proof that a game is p2w or not. Numbers dont lie.

Do you realize how much it would cost for runs if people solely paid their way through the game? It would be obnoxious. I imagine there are people who have done it before and would be an extremely small minority, but you are simply too paranoid for reason :3. Also, you could buy runs easy with gold/cash since at least BC, so really nothing has changed.

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Originally Posted by Tharkkun

Pay to win is paying for an advantage over others that isn't obtainable through normal means of playing the game. There's nothing Blizzard is gating behind money.

Players are interacting with other individuals and offering services for in game currency. P L A Y E R S. Not Blizzard. Next you're going to say playing the AH game and earning gold is P2W also.

Players selling battle pets for vast amounts of gold and you purchasing them must also be P2W right?

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There's hundreds of thousands of players who made 5+ gold using Garrisons with a million alts last expansion. Most of them are cashing out their chips. I have close to 2 million from 2 characters. You could've made a killing at the start of Legion as well. Gold is easy as hell to make.

Never did the garrison gold farm, and I had 1.6 mil even before WoD came out. This guy is right. I mean I made almost a mil the first month of legion without focusing on it, missed the crafted gear shatter for crystals. I probably would have hit the gold cap if i figured it out before it went away.

**Tharkkun** · 2017-05-11, 05:55 AM

Originally Posted by MeHMeH

False, pay to win is paying for an advantage over others that didn't pay. It doesn't have to be unobtainable through other means, if this wasn't the case then we could sell bis gear and it would still not be p2w.

Secondly, it is not about what other players do for gold, it is the fact that blizzard sells them gold that they are able to to this.

If you pay for the gold then yes, then it is pay to win, if you got the gold through playing the game, then not.

Of course it matters, one buys the gold and the other one plays the game. The buying the gold part is the p2w part, not what you can do with said gold.

Then you deserve to be attacked personally because you're too dense to understand the difference between Blizzard selling an advantage and players doing things for others in exchange for gold. They are not even close to the same thing.

If Blizzard were to turn around and sell items for gold it still wouldn't be P2W. Because just like other currencies in the game you can obtain them through normal play. Oh wait Blizzard already does sell items in game for gold! OMG it must be P2W now. But wait, I have 2 million gold already and rising because I just play the game.

**Talvindius** · 2017-05-11, 05:58 AM

Originally Posted by zupf

of course wow is pay to win.

you can officially buy gold (that you can buy lots of power with) and level boosts. if you spent more money on wow, you will win more. it's the design.

Yeah I bet all those top tier mythic raiders bought their way to server 1st kills right? What about those top rank PVPers, clearly just purchashing their way to the top.

You can buy a lot with gold but skill isn't one of them, and since it never will be WoW won't ever be "P2W." More like "Pay for lack of effort."

**Loveliest** · 2017-05-11, 06:26 AM

Yes, I see it as pay to win. Because you can buy anything with real money legally - isn't that the definition of pay to win?
It does depend on players to offer these services, so in theory you can't get what you want exactly when you want it. But still.

**Jaylock** · 2017-05-11, 06:55 AM

Originally Posted by Tharkkun

Then you deserve to be attacked personally because you're too dense to understand the difference between Blizzard selling an advantage and players doing things for others in exchange for gold. They are not even close to the same thing.

If Blizzard were to turn around and sell items for gold it still wouldn't be P2W. Because just like other currencies in the game you can obtain them through normal play. Oh wait Blizzard already does sell items in game for gold! OMG it must be P2W now. But wait, I have 2 million gold already and rising because I just play the game.

I'd have to agree with everything you said here.

People are still failing to realize that Blizzard does not sell ANY.. Let me say that again, ANY power increasing items. ANY.

PLAYERS sell power increasing items to other PLAYERS. Not BLIZZARD.

Let me spell it out, N.O.T. B.L.I.Z.Z.A.R.D.

**SL1200** · 2017-05-11, 10:49 AM

Originally Posted by Xires

ANY achievement has a price tag on it? Did you kill Mythic archi last x-pac? Have you killed mythic Guldan? Have you killed anything mythic?

Why would I bother doing any of those things? There is no prestige in it. Anyone willing to pay a price can have those achievements / kills.

Deleted · 2017-05-11, 10:59 AM

Originally Posted by Jaylock

PLAYERS sell power increasing items to other PLAYERS. Not BLIZZARD.

That distinction is irrelevant. Blizzard sells gold that is directly turned into power increases. It's like saying mobile games are not pay2win because they just sell "gems" or whatever else, which the players then use in an in-game store.

**Cromatus** · 2017-05-11, 11:44 AM

Originally Posted by ible

Maybe if you focused on the subject instead.

There is a surprising rich variety of posts and perspectives.

That's the point, the troll got what he wanted: trigger people and make them rambling about a topic without coming to a point.

**Banard** · 2017-05-11, 12:24 PM

Originally Posted by MilesMcStyles

There is no pay 2 win in WoW

36 pages and this is still going on?

I just pop several $100 on tokens got a bunch of gold...payed to get carried threw TOV and NH....got a ilevel of 915......now i am quit until ToS.

^ pay to win.

Actually, sorry just drop another few $100 on tokens got a bunch of gold and bought a spot on a RBG team...another season with top pvp title.

^ pay to win.

You can try to split hairs all you want...it exist in the game.

To the simplest of forms....cant pug? dont have AOTC to get into a pug? buy 1 token maybe 2 and pay for a spot....boom got yar AOTC and now its easier to pug....

^ pay to win.

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Originally Posted by Jaylock

I'd have to agree with everything you said here.

People are still failing to realize that Blizzard does not sell ANY.. Let me say that again, ANY power increasing items. ANY.

PLAYERS sell power increasing items to other PLAYERS. Not BLIZZARD.

Let me spell it out, N.O.T. B.L.I.Z.Z.A.R.D.

It does not have to be blizzard...they created a market for a legal transaction in game. They get extra $$$ from tokens ...

Argue all you want...as soon as the token system was introduced wow became pay to win.

Deleted · 2017-05-11, 12:46 PM

Originally Posted by Tharkkun

Then you deserve to be attacked personally because you're too dense to understand the difference between Blizzard selling an advantage and players doing things for others in exchange for gold. They are not even close to the same thing.

If Blizzard were to turn around and sell items for gold it still wouldn't be P2W. Because just like other currencies in the game you can obtain them through normal play. Oh wait Blizzard already does sell items in game for gold! OMG it must be P2W now. But wait, I have 2 million gold already and rising because I just play the game.

So you deserve to be attacked personally because you are to dense to understand that blizzard is selling the gold.

The amount of gold you have doesn't enter into this, but you must be to dense to realize that too.

Deleted · 2017-05-11, 01:30 PM

Originally Posted by Bathory

Not pay to win at all. If I could buy tier gear/any kind of gear with stats = pay to win.

this would be the perfect definition

Deleted · 2017-05-11, 02:28 PM

Originally Posted by Esedess

Well i can buy wow tokens with real money, put em on the auction house, get in game Gold, then pay in gold to Mythic guilds carries over and over to get mythic loots/rewards/titles..that's not Pay to Win right?

right?

Can you tell me what exactly are you winning?
Can you also tell me what selling wares in the auction house - making millions of gold and then buying boosts is?
While you're at it, what is the definition of winning in a pve game? Getting a few pieces of gear to boost your ilvl for PvP isn't doing anything for you tbh.

**Lochton** · 2017-05-11, 02:37 PM