"Pay to Win"

[FlatBootyJudy]

What is YOUR definition of "pay to win"?

As it relates to WoW, do you believe the game is now pay to win, or not at all pay to win?

When paying gives you a huge advantage over the competition. Buying mounts and what not to me is not paying to win. Free level upgrade is paying to win but in WOW it's very minor. Hearthstone is a great example of paying to win, it's hard to be competitive without good cards, yes you can earn them by gold but it would take you forever to go that rout especially if you lose every other game

[Elbob]

Your problem is you are looking at a hypothetical as if it was real. If Blizzard decides to sell AP for RMT, they WILL cap the max artifact level for BALANCE purposes. They cannot allow unlimited growth, you know. Without the cap the game will be broken regardless of p2w. But as long as the maximum level is achievable without RMT - it is not p2w. That is all.

My hypothetical is not being treated as if its real, my hypothetical is showing that rewards can become exclusive via bypassing timegates. Just because the rewards exist via regular means doesn't mean you have infinite access to them. Obviously this situation does not exist in wow as the discussion is drawn from you disagreeing from my existing example. You throw out the extreme examples that would never happen because they void your stance on time not being a barrier that can be broken via a P2W model. Rewards being granted early by breaking a timegate makes them exclusive just like your hypothetical gun that doesn't need to aimed, as in both offer power rewards exclusive to the paying player.

ToS gear EXISTS in game but is currently unobtainable. If I could buy full Mythic ToS gear TODAY would that be P2W? I'd say yes... What about the day ToS comes out? ...This is when its in that gray area for me, because in world with raid lockouts a guild only has access to 12 pieces of Mythic tier per week + coined tokens. Even full clearing on week 1 the entire raid will not be in full tier gear let alone full offpieces. So if everyone in 1 guild purchased this gear they have bypassed the gear timegate of raid lockouts and have an exclusive advantage over other guilds BECAUSE they payed for that gear. So I would still say yes.

On your comment about "if AP became purchasable" (I don't think Blizzard will do this, as it was hypothetical) and saying they would cap weapons(there is a cap on AK and AP so nothing is unlimited in the current build)... you have a source on that? Just assuming a company would do things cause it fulfills your view of fair and balanced does not mean they will.

"P2W" is a sensitive topic in a game with time based rewards. We agree that P2W refers to exclusive content but differ in definition of what makes something exclusive. In my eyes early access is exclusive when it can't be unlocked by regular means(not paying). I've made my point with examples as to why I feel that way. Where as your argument is mostly dismissing my examples not refuting them. Your stance (feel free to correct me) is that if methods to obtain the rewards exist without money it is not pay to win even if those methods are infinity close to impossible to achieve. Access to a exclusive 5% stat boost is P2W but exclusive access to unobtainable gear that provides similar benefits isnt... because players will have access to it eventually?

I've added complications to your "binary" problem by showing how rewards can still be exclusive(even if temporarily) while existing as a reward in the game normally. Please understand I don't think your stance is "wrong" but I do think that its to simple to apply to games where there are timegated resources related to player power.

[Elim Garak]

My hypothetical is not being treated as if its real, my hypothetical is showing that rewards can become exclusive via bypassing timegates.

That like never happens in reality, because it RUINS THE GAME. Your hypothetical is beyond p2w. Do you understand? You came up with something that doesn't work in reality. There's no point in discussing whether it's p2w or not. It's impossible.

[ComputerNerd]

And again, nothing new.

I argued many points.
You simply repeated yourself, using the same answer for everything.
I used your own words, even with an additional and entirely separate rule of your creation and still proved you wrong.
You simply do not have an argument with that simplistic definition.
All you keep doing is repeating that a single word is fine, but it is not.
There was nothing inherently wrong or even inaccurate about my description of what an expansion allows.
You simply do not like that it fits within your own description of pay to win.

When paying gives you a huge advantage over the competition. Buying mounts and what not to me is not paying to win. Free level upgrade is paying to win but in WOW it's very minor. Hearthstone is a great example of paying to win, it's hard to be competitive without good cards, yes you can earn them by gold but it would take you forever to go that rout especially if you lose every other game

Improved collections are an advantage in improving that collection.

Buying an expansion offers advantages over someone not.
Increased level cap, more content, improved rewards, etc.
They are all advantages.
Is the word advantage actually incorrect there ?
No.

That is why the word advantage is simply inadequate on its own.

And good players using new accounts have shown that statement about hearthstone to be utter rubbish many times.

[FlatBootyJudy]

And good players using new accounts have shown that statement about hearthstone to be utter rubbish many times.

You can be a good player and go far but once you play against people with similar skill you will fall flat without having good cards to your advantage.

[Elbob]

That like never happens in reality, because it RUINS THE GAME. Your hypothetical is beyond p2w. Do you understand? You came up with something that doesn't work in reality. There's no point in discussing whether it's p2w or not. It's impossible.

I could list numerous games that use an energy system that generates over time but you can pay money to refill it instantly to its max... so it does exist. My "impossible" example was taken from actual games, AND they are used in a comparable method to my conceived application to wow. My examples are some how beyond P2W... what? My examples take a P2W reward (exclusive content normal players can't have) and weakens it, by your standards, because the rewards DO become available with TIME. My examples are not on the more extreme side of P2W they are less extreme but still fall under the same umbrella. The very fact you think my examples, which are your examples as P2W rewards but given a method to earn without paying over time, are worse then P2W screams that bypassing timegated access via cash purchases fits in YOUR definition of P2W. There is no ceiling on how hard you can "win" just a floor.

[Elim Garak]

I could list numerous games that use an energy system that generates over time but you can pay money to refill it instantly to its max... so it does exist.

What the actual fuck... this has been already covered before - is not p2w. You just skip time gate. And if you even start to think to mention your hypothetical again... it's impossible.

[Vicarious]

Random plebs feeding jaylock while moderators ban those who get trolled by him since 2009. Good to see some things never change.

[Elbob]

What the actual fuck... this has been already covered before - is not p2w. You just skip time gate. And if you even start to think to mention your hypothetical again... it's impossible.

Refreshing raid lock outs does the same thing... its the same form of gating. You can run X amount of content in Y time. You can run 1 mythic NH per Week. I guess you think its impossible to refresh a raid lockout with blizzards current tech more often then once a week? Early access is not impossible so you can't just throw it in the junk pile like it couldn't happen. As I've said before I do not think Blizzard would do it, this argument is about the P2W MODEL and I am using wow examples as a reference because we both know the game. You are doing nothing but deflecting and not refuting anything.... I feel like I'm discussing this with an individual who is covering their ears and screaming "NO NO NO NO!!!". If it makes you feel better replace "wow" with "Random MMO-X".

In Random MMO-X, players can choose to pay a double subscription to gain access to content 1week/1month/1year/1expansion (pick your magic line in the sand) early. Do they have a P2W advantage over players who pay for a regular subscription? Why or Why not?

[micwini]

Why and or how is Jaylock still allowed to make threads? Serious question, because his threads are literally nothing but bait over nonsensical issues.

Mods are actively supporting trolls. He has never been permanently banned.

[Elim Garak]

Refreshing raid lock outs does the same thing... its the same form of gating.

We already had that covered. Is it cyclical with you or something? Go back several pages and read it if you like.

[Elbob]

We already had that covered. Is it cyclical with you or something? Go back several pages and read it if you like.

"Bollocks. Everyone has access to those activities, you are just bypassing weekly lockout. Skipping time gate. And you don't get anything that makes you more powerful in the game, you just gear up more quickly and then leave the game because you have nothing to do."
Gear = stats = power, bypassing the time gate does grant power. In wow's case it also grants AP which is power as well. So your counter is gear != power? Gear some how = quitting the game?
So the reason people raid is to get gear -> quit the game. You might need to convince me of this one with some examples that properly apply to the broad spectrum of players that enjoy raiding.

In Random MMO-X, players can choose to pay a double subscription to gain access to content 1week/1month/1year/1expansion (pick your magic line in the sand) early. Do they have a P2W advantage over players who pay for a regular subscription? Why or Why not?

Answer the whole post. Reminder this is about the P2W model and its various forms not about the example of do/will these things exist in wow.

[ComputerNerd]

You can be a good player and go far but once you play against people with similar skill you will fall flat without having good cards to your advantage.

The necessity to buy into it though is the statement I have fault with.
The fact that skill can carry you a long way needs stated.
Better cards are not an automatic win if you don't know how to use them right.
And even then you are not simply buying those cards directly, but an extra roll of a dice.

Answer the whole post. Reminder this is about the P2W model and its various forms not about the example of do/will these things exist in wow.

There is Pay to Win, and there is something else.
There aren't different forms.
If a statement does not apply properly to every example you think it should do, either the statement is wrong or the assertion is.

[Elim Garak]

"Bollocks. Everyone has access to those activities, you are just bypassing weekly lockout. Skipping time gate. And you don't get anything that makes you more powerful in the game, you just gear up more quickly and then leave the game because you have nothing to do."
Gear = stats = power, bypassing the time gate does grant power. In wow's case it also grants AP which is power as well. So your counter is gear != power? Gear some how = quitting the game?
So the reason people raid is to get gear -> quit the game. You might need to convince me of this one with some examples that properly apply to the broad spectrum of players that enjoy raiding.

I don't need to convince you. Just like a teacher doesn't need to convince kids that 2+2 =4. I'll just give you an F and repeat the correct answer.

Everyone has access to those activities, you are just bypassing weekly lockout. Skipping time gate. And you don't get anything that makes you more powerful in the game, you just gear up more quickly and then leave the game because you have nothing to do.

Maybe next time you'll pass

Answer the whole post. Reminder this is about the P2W model and its various forms not about the example of do/will these things exist in wow.

What is it with you and your inability to provide a real example? Why do you need to employ so many new and ambiguous words in your hypotheticals? What is content? What is p2w advantage?

Let's just look at TESO, it's a f2p game now, there are 2 types of players: free and premium (either subscription, RMT or both). free players have access to the base game content. Premium players have access to DLCs. DLCs consist of two parts - the base game patch and new content. Obviously premium players have access to this new content while free players do not. But premium players don't have a permanent power advantage over free players, i.e. free players have access to the same level of gear and abilities. And thus it is not p2w.

There.

[Elbob]

I don't need to convince you. Just like a teacher doesn't need to convince kids that 2+2 =4. I'll just give you an F and repeat the correct answer.

Everyone has access to those activities, you are just bypassing weekly lockout. Skipping time gate. And you don't get anything that makes you more powerful in the game, you just gear up more quickly and then leave the game because you have nothing to do.

Maybe next time you'll pass

Raid lock outs stop power gains via limiting how much gear(stats) you gain per week. Not having a lock out permits more stat gain per week then a free to play player could obtain. Eventually the free player will have cleared the raid enough to times to nullify the power gain but until that occurs there is a temp P2W benefit. So until the free player catches up the P2W player can have a 5/4/3% advantage because they paid. Having more stats that is exclusive to the P2W player falls under the P2W model. The exclusiveness goes away in time and the P2W advantage falls but a players advantage is taken in snap shots. On X day Player A has 5% more agility than Player B only because he can get more gear when compared to player A. Thats a P2W advantage.

What is it with you and your inability to provide a real example? Why do you need to employ so many new and ambiguous words in your hypotheticals? What is content? What is p2w advantage?

Let's just look at TESO, it's a f2p game now, there are 2 types of players: free and premium (either subscription, RMT or both). free players have access to the base game content. Premium players have access to DLCs. DLCs consist of two parts - the base game patch and new content. Obviously premium players have access to this new content while free players do not. But premium players don't have a permanent power advantage over free players, i.e. free players have access to the same level of gear and abilities. And thus it is not p2w.
There.

I'm using examples projected onto the base wow model because we both know the game. I do not know ESO but we both know the effects of gear and artifact power in wow and because we are not determining if WoW is P2W because we agree it is not but rather whether or not P2W can refer to a timegated reward system.
Since you don't like my made up examples lets go back to yours with the no-need-to-aim gun. If that gun could be purchased for only 5 days at a time, you would still be P2W for those 5 days you bought the gun. Now instead of losing the gun after 5 days everyone gets the gun and you are no longer P2W. But those first 5 days you were.

Advantages purchased exclusively through cash are P2W until a free player can possibly achieve the goals. Once it is possible(not necessarily completed) to have earned the reward using non cash methods the P2W advantage is gone, but until that point P2W is a thing.

[Elim Garak]

Raid lock outs stop power gains via limiting how much gear(stats) you gain per week.

Raid lock outs delay gear acquisition to prolong content usefulness. It has nothing to do with power gains. Getting all the gear in a week is bad for business.
Needless to say some lucky people MAY get most of the new gear from a single lockout (especially with bonus rolls) because it's all RNG.
Skipping lockouts with RMT is not p2w anyway. Just because you get the gear faster doesn't mean you gain more power than available to everyone.

Since you don't like my made up examples lets go back to yours with the no-need-to-aim gun. If that gun could be purchased for only 5 days at a time, you would still be P2W for those 5 days you bought the gun. Now instead of losing the gun after 5 days everyone gets the gun and you are no longer P2W. But those first 5 days you were.

Even if I close my eyes on how ridiculous that case is. That would be just time skip. If it was a gun that only exists for 5 days and you needed to buy it again after it expires - that would be p2w. You cannot catch up with p2w options, if you can - it's not p2w.

Advantages purchased exclusively through cash are P2W until a free player can possibly achieve the goals. Once it is possible(not necessarily completed) to have earned the reward using non cash methods the P2W advantage is gone, but until that point P2W is a thing.

No. P2w must be permanent.

[Bricktor]

you mean like the 940ilevel ledgenderies currently on the ah?

You mean the legendaries that are just stat sticks and totally not bugged?

[Thoughtful Trolli]

Pay to win is when money can buy anything that isn't subscription or non-transferable cosmetics.

Wow is pay to win and has been since introducing the gold token.

According to my definition, trade-able battle pets were the first pay to win feature, especially considering they would provide an advantage in pet battles, but I don't regard them as pay to win, so I guess my own definition isn't correct.

[Deleted]

All that just makes you the top bottom-feeder. Not much of a win. You are not better than those who sold you the gear and mythic runs, not even close. You just catching up to them in terms of gear. They win all the time. Now they've also won your gold. And Blizzard won your money. What have you won? Nothing but a flicker of a feeling of adequacy in current content. Come next update, expansion - and you are back to the bottom. But your benefactors are there at the top all of the time. And you've just lost $500. Great win.

If you get the achievement and the gear to get you into decent guilds that will eliminate the need to pay for anything again then it's still a win. You'd still have to be a good player though otherwise you wouldn't last long, which yeah money can't buy .

[Deleted]

I argued many points.
You simply repeated yourself, using the same answer for everything.
I used your own words, even with an additional and entirely separate rule of your creation and still proved you wrong.
You simply do not have an argument with that simplistic definition.
All you keep doing is repeating that a single word is fine, but it is not.
There was nothing inherently wrong or even inaccurate about my description of what an expansion allows.
You simply do not like that it fits within your own description of pay to win.



Improved collections are an advantage in improving that collection.

Buying an expansion offers advantages over someone not.
Increased level cap, more content, improved rewards, etc.
They are all advantages.
Is the word advantage actually incorrect there ?
No.

That is why the word advantage is simply inadequate on its own.

And good players using new accounts have shown that statement about hearthstone to be utter rubbish many times.

The only thing you have proven thus far is that you are very good at not reading and saying stupid stuff like buying a game buys you power. It completely ignores the fact that without the game you can't play the game and that you do not buy power but still have to play to get that power. You have brought nothing but platitudes that where very easy to refute, but all you do is keep repeating them.
Paying cash to get an advantage in game, it still stands.