Tinkers In Our Future?

[Shostradamus]

I think the idea is ridiculous and hope it never comes to be. You want be a tinker? Make a gnome or goblin and pick up engineering and let the rp begin!

[Rhamses]

I think the idea is ridiculous and hope it never comes to be. You want be a tinker? Make a gnome or goblin and pick up engineering and let the rp begin!

Tinker class:


Engineering Profession:

[Jtree]

Heck, I'll fully admit I was wrong about Demon Hunters. I had no idea that Blizzard would gut a class, release a 4th class that uses leather, limit a new class to only two races, and release a class with only two specializations.

After Demon Hunters, you can't really say that any class is impossible. If Blizzard is willing to purposely gimp and remove the most popular Warlock spec to bring in Demon Hunters, why would anyone actually believe that Engineering is safe?

And you were right in that Blizz would overhaul Demo Locks to do it. Though in this expansion that was at most the second biggest change a spec went through. (Looking at you, melee hunters.)

IMO, it would be easier to add Tinkers without stepping on Engineering's toes. Most of the neat engineering toys added each expansion are useless in the next, so just don't add new ones (bombs, turrets, etc.) in the Tinker expansion. If Blizz was really planning ahead, they could start that the expansion before Tinkers are added.

Or do the opposite, and tease new things with interesting items of limited use. Maybe Reaves was made to plant the notion of a machine-piloting combat!

[-Joker-]

IMO, it would be easier to add Tinkers without stepping on Engineering's toes. Most of the neat engineering toys added each expansion are useless in the next, so just don't add new ones (bombs, turrets, etc.) in the Tinker expansion. If Blizz was really planning ahead, they could start that the expansion before Tinkers are added.

Or do the opposite, and tease new things with interesting items of limited use. Maybe Reaves was made to plant the notion of a machine-piloting combat!

Tinker from Warcraft III shows they fit nicely. If we can make an entire expac with Panda bears based on ONE panda from WC III, then adding a class from the same RTS should be simple enough

I really enjoyed @Teriz idea of Tinkers and thought it would make for a great addition.

[Ielenia]

It's proven because combat mechs are extremely common in Goblin and Gnome societies.

It's not proven. Correlation does not imply causation. We know absolute zero about how those mechs were built and what parts they're using. For that same twisted logic, we can say that cars here are so very easy to be made since they're so extremely common in society.

However, I never argued that. I said that getting the parts were a torturous experience. It isn't torturous because you have to go around the world, It's torturous because you have to venture into raids an inordinate amount of times to obtain items with low drop rates.

And I pointed out that it's an irrelevant argument you're trying to raise. That's just you moving goalposts. You said you couldn't fight in a mech, and after being proven wrong, you shift goal posts to say things like "it's a pain to build" and "can't use outside Broken Isles".

The Iron Juggernaut has better armor and better weapons. Look it up.

Comparing a raid boss to a player. Good going. Your lack of arguments is showing.

Blackfuse also invented the Predictive Combat Operations Databank

Did he, now? Where does it say that it was Blackfuse who invented that item? Does it say "patented by Blackfuse" anywhere on the item? I see you making so many claims with little to no evidence. It's becoming a trend for you.

LoL! It doesn't need to be explained.

Yes, it does. It doesn't matter if it's a world of magic, basic logic still exists. There is nothing in the lore that could explain why something would work in the Broken Isles, but not anywhere else.

The point is that the flaws and drawbacks exist

They don't. It's simply a gameplay restriction, because there's no lore at all to support such a thing.

Rhamses, seriously, why do you forsake all logic and common sense when it comes to Tinkers?

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Then what does "rough shipbuilding" mean, because that sounds like you are writing off the Iron Horde's aircraft carriers and submarines as low tech in order to ignore the fact that at least one orc was shown in-game to be able to design sophisticated machines.

I'm not. I'm simply saying those are most likely to be goblin designs.

It's not just that. Engineers in WoW have "day jobs", their class, that interferes with their ability to be a full time tinker.

You do know that, lore-wise, there really isn't any difference at all between 'profession' and 'class', right? Not to mention that sayin "engineers in WoW have 'day jobs'" is just very, very dishonest, if not downright false.

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https://twitter.com/CM_Zarhym/status/420687146274406400

That tweet is from January 2014. Legion was announced on August 2015. One and a half year is not "right before".

[Fabinas]

Reaves is actually worse. At least Warlocks could use Meta on every continent and in any dungeon. They also didn't have to go on a brutal "quest" to collect mats just so that they can use Meta a limited number of times.

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Actually right before the Legion announcement, Blizzard devs said that they had no plans to release a DH class.

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https://twitter.com/CM_Zarhym/status/420687146274406400

Ok, 2014 is right before Legion announcement? *rolls eyes.

[Teriz]

/snip

These lore argument are stupid. Blizzard has shown that they will happily toss lore aside to bring a class into the game.

Take your new chosen class Ielenia; Demon Hunters. How exactly did Warlocks suddenly lose the ability to perform Metamorphosis and all of its abilities as soon as Demon Hunters emerged as a playable class? I would love to hear your lore explanation for that one, since Warlocks had that ability for multiple expansions, but suddenly they lose it and all of its corresponding abilities as soon as we get a DH class with Metamorphosis. Did Warlocks suddenly forget how to use a signature ability between WoD and Legion? Did all of those Demonology warlocks who mastered Metamorphosis suddenly die off? Please provide an explanation for this occurrence and cite some evidence to support it.

The ironic thing about your arguments in this thread is that the class in your signature invalidates all of them.

[Ielenia]

These lore argument are stupid. Blizzard has shown that they will happily toss lore aside to bring a class into the game.

Take your new chosen class Ielenia; Demon Hunters. How exactly did Warlocks suddenly lose the ability to perform Metamorphosis and all of its abilities as soon as Demon Hunters emerged as a playable class? I would love to hear your lore explanation for that one, since Warlocks had that ability for multiple expansions, but suddenly they lose it and all of its corresponding abilities as soon as we get a DH class with Metamorphosis. Did Warlocks suddenly forget how to use a signature ability between WoD and Legion? Did all of those Demonology warlocks who mastered Metamorphosis suddenly die off? Please provide an explanation for this occurrence and cite some evidence to support it.

Unlike you and some, I don't make up stuff. Why not ask Blizzard when they decide to throw the next Q&A?

I also find it funny how you simply '/snip' my entire post, basically admitting you're not replying to any of my points, and instead just making a post trying to defend an indefensible position (i.e. the claim that the reason the Reaves mech doesn't work anywhere other than the Broken Isles is somehow lore-based)

[Rhamses]

It's not proven. Correlation does not imply causation. We know absolute zero about how those mechs were built and what parts they're using. For that same twisted logic, we can say that cars here are so very easy to be made since they're so extremely common in society.

Wouldn't something that is clearly mass-produced (like the Spider tanks throughout Gnomeregan) indicate that they are relatively easy to create by Gnomes and Goblins?

And I pointed out that it's an irrelevant argument you're trying to raise. That's just you moving goalposts. You said you couldn't fight in a mech, and after being proven wrong, you shift goal posts to say things like "it's a pain to build" and "can't use outside Broken Isles".

Except that was never my argument. I said that Engineering doesn't fulfill the class fantasy represented by Mekkatorque, Blackfuse, Gazlowe, Noggenfogger, Thermaplugg, and numerous other Goblins and Gnomes fighting in combat mechs. Reaves Piloted Combat module doesn't fulfill that fantasy, and I THOROUGHLY explained why.

Comparing a raid boss to a player. Good going. Your lack of arguments is showing.

Player characters can solo the Iron Juggernaut at this point in WoW. However, you can't solo the IJ while piloting the Reaves Combat module, since it would be destroyed in a matter of seconds. That sort of indicates that Reaves is inferior tech compared to the IJ.

Did he, now? Where does it say that it was Blackfuse who invented that item? Does it say "patented by Blackfuse" anywhere on the item? I see you making so many claims with little to no evidence. It's becoming a trend for you.

http://wow.gamepedia.com/Iron_Juggernaut

It says clearly that the Iron Juggernaut was created by Blackfuse. If you can find some other lore showing someone else built it, be my guest.

Yes, it does. It doesn't matter if it's a world of magic, basic logic still exists. There is nothing in the lore that could explain why something would work in the Broken Isles, but not anywhere else.

I think the fact that you're an inferior engineer is a pretty good explanation which is supported by both the lore and the gameplay.

They don't. It's simply a gameplay restriction, because there's no lore at all to support such a thing.

Sorry, but I've given you plenty of lore to support the restriction. You refusing to acknowledge the facts doesn't mean that that lore doesn't exist.

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Ok, 2014 is right before Legion announcement? *rolls eyes.

I shouldn't have said "right before", but Blizzard plans expansions far in advance, so its doubtful that there were "no plans" for DHs at that point. Blizzard even said that the DH was planned for years before Legion's announcement.

[Kathranis]

I think it's a cool idea and there's a lot of stuff they could do with it.

I really like the idea of adding a new pet class that interacts with pets in a different way than hunters and warlocks. Being able to build your own pet from a variety of parts, for example, would be a really cool mechanic for a hero class.

A class with vehicle-based mechanics could also be really interesting.

Obviously there's a little bit of overlap with the engineer class, but people used to say Brewmaster would never be possible for similar reasons. That's just a lack of imagination.

[C J]

Honestly, I could see tinkerers being a thing.

Three specs come to mind when I think about possibilities for them:

1: The typical ranger/esq type engineer with a long range gun and uses turrets, could possibly even be "tanky"

2: More of a mobile suited spec using dual pistols and small "trick gadgets" sorta similar to what hunter traps do, think like shock guns and such

3: Something that could be argued a rogue spec, sorta like an alchemist built spec focusing on using concoctions to do their work instead, vials that explode into gasses of different effects, and some that just stick targets in place, or even just deal direct damage or even knock them back.

[Ielenia]

Wouldn't something that is clearly mass-produced (like the Spider tanks throughout Gnomeregan) indicate that they are relatively easy to create by Gnomes and Goblins?

They're mass-produced because they're likely made by factories. We're not talking about factories, we're talking about the effort of a single person.

Except that was never my argument. I said that Engineering doesn't fulfill the class fantasy represented by Mekkatorque, Blackfuse, Gazlowe, Noggenfogger, Thermaplugg, and numerous other Goblins and Gnomes fighting in combat mechs.

And you were proven wrong.

Reaves Piloted Combat module doesn't fulfill that fantasy, and I THOROUGHLY explained why.

Yes, because for some reason its inability to function outside the Broken Isles is somehow a lore reason.

http://wow.gamepedia.com/Iron_Juggernaut
It says clearly that the Iron Juggernaut was created by Blackfuse. If you can find some other lore showing someone else built it, be my guest.

I'm sorry, but I don't see anywhere in that page that the Predictive Combat Operations Databank was created by Blackfuse.

Sorry, but I've given you plenty of lore to support the restriction. You refusing to acknowledge the facts doesn't mean that that lore doesn't exist.

In this case, I'll repeat a question I posted earlier: why is that people lose all sense of logic and common sense when it comes to defending Tinkers in WoW?

I shouldn't have said "right before", but Blizzard plans expansions far in advance, so its doubtful that there were "no plans" for DHs at that point. Blizzard even said that the DH was planned for years before Legion's announcement.

Prove it. Show us where Blizzard said so. Because I doubt they ever did that.

[Teriz]

Unlike you and some, I don't make up stuff. Why not ask Blizzard when they decide to throw the next Q&A?

I also find it funny how you simply '/snip' my entire post, basically admitting you're not replying to any of my points, and instead just making a post trying to defend an indefensible position (i.e. the claim that the reason the Reaves mech doesn't work anywhere other than the Broken Isles is somehow lore-based)

I'm not replying to any of that because it's a pointless argument. Blizzard completely annihilated Warlock lore (and some amazing Warlock lore to boot) and gameplay to push Demon Hunters on us. If Blizzard is willing to gut a class for the sake of a new class, why wouldn't they be perfectly willing to gut a profession to do the exact same thing?

[Ielenia]

Blizzard completely annihilated Warlock lore and gamplay

I can only assume that by 'annihilated the warlock lore and gameplay', you mean 'returned the warlock to what the spec's lore and gameplay should have been since the beginning'.

If Blizzard is willing to gut a class for the sake of a new class

Losing one skill is not 'gutting' a class.

[Teriz]

I can only assume that by 'annihilated the warlock lore and gameplay', you mean 'returned the warlock to what the spec's lore and gameplay should have been since the beginning'.

No, I mean completely removing abilities and lore that had been built up for over 4 expansions with no real explanation for it other than "We need to make design space for the Demon Hunter class". Blizzard even purposely gimped the class at the end of the WoD expansion in order to push their argument for the removal of the spec.

But thanks for showcasing your hypocrisy here. You have no problem with a class being gutted for Demon Hunters, but seem to have your panties in a bunch about Engineering getting supposedly gutted for Tinkers, though its pretty obvious that Engineering wouldn't be affected in the slightest by the inclusion of a tinker class.

People actually quit playing Warlocks because of what happened to Demonology. I highly doubt anyone would stop playing Engineering because a Tinker class appeared. In fact, it would probably make the profession more popular.

Losing one skill is not 'gutting' a class.

You do realize that Warlocks lost an entire specialization right? Metamorphosis was tied to a resource and several associated abilities, glyphs, and talents.

[Jtree]

You do know that, lore-wise, there really isn't any difference at all between 'profession' and 'class'...

It's a metaphor, about player characters, not NPCs.

/headdesk

[Ielenia]

No, I mean completely removing abilities and lore that had been built up for over 4 expansions with no real explanation for it other than "We need to make design space for the Demon Hunter class".

So you ignored all that had been said about how the Demonology spec deviated too far from its original focus, which was 'control over demons', with the addition of Metamorphosis?

But thanks for showcasing your hypocrisy here. You have no problem with a class being gutted for Demon Hunters, but seem to have your panties in a bunch about Engineering getting supposedly gutted for Tinkers, though its pretty obvious that Engineering wouldn't be affected in the slightest by the inclusion of a tinker class.

Shows how little you have been paying attention. My argument is that both (tinker and engineer) are simply one and the same, in the lore. No difference at all between them.

People actually quit playing Warlocks because of what happened to Demonology.

And? What's the relevance?

You do realize that Warlocks lost an entire specialization right?

Affliction, Demonology, Destruction. All specs still there.

Metamorphosis was tied to a resource and several associated abilities, glyphs, and talents.

That may be, but what you call "gutting", I call "restoring". Demonology has always was about control over demons, up until Wrath when the ability was copied from DHs, when the entire focus of the spec shifted from 'control' to 'becoming a demon'.

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It's a metaphor, about player characters, not NPCs.

'NPCs' and 'Player characters' are concepts that do not exist in the lore.

[Rhamses]

They're mass-produced because they're likely made by factories. We're not talking about factories, we're talking about the effort of a single person.

Fair point, but even the mass produced mechs can be modified by individual characters. Gazlowe and Noggenfogger both pilot modified Shredders for example which are again far more powerful than Reaves Combat module.

And you were proven wrong.

No I wasn't. Again, I thoroughly explained how it doesn't fulfill the class fantasy, and showed how in all honesty it isn't even worth crafting.

Yes, because for some reason its inability to function outside the Broken Isles is somehow a lore reason.

That's really the only way to explain it, because there are numerous examples of characters piloting powerful combat mechs throughout the world, and they're not confined to the Broken Isles.

I'm sorry, but I don't see anywhere in that page that the Predictive Combat Operations Databank was created by Blackfuse.

Are you being obtuse here? The device comes from the Iron Juggernaut. It even says it in the item description. Are you trying to say that someone else placed it there?

In this case, I'll repeat a question I posted earlier: why is that people lose all sense of logic and common sense when it comes to defending Tinkers in WoW?

Because people like yourself come up with nonsensical arguments in order to attack the concept. No one really buys your belief that the Engineering profession is the same as the mech technology shown by various Goblins and Gnomes in WoW. If they did, you wouldn't see this sudden push of people wanting a tech class after seeing that Gelbin cinematic.

Truly, your argument is laughable at best.

[Ielenia]

Fair point, but even the mass produced mechs can be modified by individual characters. Gazlowe and Noggenfogger both pilot modified Shredders for example which are again far more powerful than Reaves Combat module.

Until we see a fight between them outside of game mechanics, you cannot state as fact that one is more powerful than the other.

No I wasn't. Again, I thoroughly explained how it doesn't fulfill the class fantasy, and showed how in all honesty it isn't even worth crafting.

Your "explanation" is nothing more than goal post shifting after you were proven wrong about not being able to pilot a mech through engineering.

That's really the only way to explain it,

No, that's your twisted, nonsensical way of "explaining" it. You have not yet presented a single logical reason to help explain why the mech Reaves would work only in the Broken Isles and not anywhere else in the world.

Are you being obtuse here? The device comes from the Iron Juggernaut. It even says it in the item description. Are you trying to say that someone else placed it there?

If I buy an Audi car, does it mean that Audi designed and created the rubber tires? Was it them who designed and created the car battery that goes in it? Was it them who designed and developed the paint that was used on it? Was it them who designed and developed the sound system in the car? Or is it possible that a third party may have created and developed one or more of the pieces that goes into the car? Same logic applies.

Because people like yourself come up with nonsensical arguments in order to attack the concept.

You bring up this nonsensical argument that the reason the Reaves mech mode cannot be used outside the Broken Isles is lore-based, not gameplay-based... and you accuse me of giving nonsensical arguments. I'm amazed at the lack of self-awareness you're displaying.

Seriously: why do people abandon all sense of logic and common sense when it comes to defending the tinker idea?

[Rhamses]

Until we see a fight between them outside of game mechanics, you cannot state as fact that one is more powerful than the other.

So is it also "arguable" that your level 110 Demon Hunter is more powerful than a level 5 bunny in Elwyn Forest despite your DH being able to kill it with a swipe of its weapon or can we use our brains and reach a logical conclusion?

Your "explanation" is nothing more than goal post shifting after you were proven wrong about not being able to pilot a mech through engineering.

Uh, it was never wrong because that was never my argument in the first place. This was;

Nah. The profession doesn't properly represent the class fantasy showcased in major NPCs. For example, if you want to fight a dungeon boss inside a mech ala Gelbin Mekkatorque or even Helix Blackfuse, there's no way to do it. Unlike your "combat farmer", the class fantasy of a Gnome or Goblin piloting a mech in combat is showcased throughout the WoW game world and repeatedly in a variety of Warcraft media to boot, so the fact that you can't roll a Goblin or a Gnome and partake in that fantasy is pretty jarring.

Its not about simply "piloting a mech". Its about the profession properly representing a fantasy showcased by major NPCs. Reaves Combat Module doesn't do that.

No, that's your twisted, nonsensical way of "explaining" it. You have not yet presented a single logical reason to help explain why the mech Reaves would work only in the Broken Isles and not anywhere else in the world.

Again, because the player isn't a Goblin or Gnome mechanical genius, thus creates highly flawed and inferior pieces of machinery loaded with drawbacks. Considering how terrible and gimped the Reaves Module Combat mode is, it is a perfectly logical reason.

If I buy an Audi car, does it mean that Audi designed and created the rubber tires? Was it them who designed and created the car battery that goes in it? Was it them who designed and developed the paint that was used on it? Was it them who designed and developed the sound system in the car? Or is it possible that a third party may have created and developed one or more of the pieces that goes into the car? Same logic applies.

If Audi says that Hans Gruber invented your car and makes no mention of any third party, then its reasonable to assume that Hans Gruber built everything inside your car. Blackfuse is the only character mentioned as the INVENTOR of the Iron Juggernaut, so its safe to assume that everything on that machine was created by Helix Blackfuse.

You bring up this nonsensical argument that the reason the Reaves mech mode cannot be used outside the Broken Isles is lore-based, not gameplay-based... and you accuse me of giving nonsensical arguments. I'm amazed at the lack of self-awareness you're displaying.

Again, my lore-based argument about the restriction makes perfect logical sense if you simply admit that the profession isn't the same as the Tinkers we're seeing throughout the game. If you hold on to your flawed argument that somehow the engineering profession is the exact same as what Mekkatorque, Blackfuse, Gazlowe, and others have done/can do, then the gameplay restrictions on Reaves and Engineering in general makes zero sense.

Since its clear you're going to hold on to your flawed argument, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.