Should iLvL below Mythic Raiding Max out BELOW Mythic Base?

[Hydrofluoric]

No it doesn't. That's just bullshit. If your self-esteem really hinges on whether or not other people have gear that has a similar item level to yours, that's your problem.... If I pick up a 915+ from our heroic raid by chance, that doesn't devalue a mythic raider's achievement.

If you give an alternative to reward, it automatically devalues the first way of getting the item, that's how supply/demand works.

[Niwes]

Mythic raid ilvl-equivalent procs are extremely rare, not only that, but there is a good chance that they might not have good stats and/or abilities. Combine that with the chance of the item being for a slot that is a BiS legionary, and it makes it even rarer that the titanforged item will be significantly useful, overall.

- - - Updated - - -



That's an absolutely horrible idea and it does nothing but return to what mythic raiders were complaining about before they implimented WF/TF. There was massive complaining about scheduled grinding, people mapping the time it would take to get X gear or X item that sapped all of the excitement out of getting loot since all people did was simcraft the duration for a "farm everything on this chore list, then you can finally raid" schedule. It would be like returning to the dark ages of gearscore grinds, an absolute failed setup of awarding and administering loot.

no. plain and simple. no.

[Deleted]

are you sure youre married? you spend more time on here than with your "wife".

[Tradu]

A very quick response to this and then I think I've said everything I need to say: I don't let what happens to others affect how I feel about things. Someone getting a nice piece of gear from a pet battle doesn't much change my game at all. If they are strangers well, OK. If they're friends, I'm happy for them. Those who are obsessed about what's going on with people on the other side of their personal fence are entitled to their opinions but smart players will know to worry more about their own game and try to think as little as possible about that player on some other continent and what dropped for them.

As for guild applications, I'm glad you said 'in the past' as most of what I see these days with respect to recruiting is for people who ready to go the moment they apply. If you're under-geared you are not likely to have a lot of luck. Whatever you imagine mattered in the past I'm not certain that it's like that now.

First bit: The problem is that the systems in place to allow random plebs to get good items from easy/quick activities hurt the sense of progression for people doing actual hard content.

Bolded: Thanks to the way gearing works in Legion. In the past it was possible to just drag people through a raid or 2 and they'd be pretty much caught up in terms of gear(took me like 1 or 2 weeks of farm to be non-WF BiS from the current farm bosses when I joined my current guild during BRF mythic, coming from only having done BRF heroic beforehand). In Legion that's simply not possible, meaning people have to already have the gear to get in in a lot of cases.

- - - Updated - - -

From Blizzard's point of view, it's a better way of doing it. It forces players to play longer, rather than just resubbing and swooping in at the end of a tier when the instance itself has been nerfed. It avoids all the complaints from some hardcores -- and don't pretend you don't remember them -- about nerfing of the instances themselves.

I think the complaints about -forging are almost identical in spirit to the complaints about instance nerfing, actually.

Yes, and I don't particularly think there should be direct nerfs to raids either. The natural gear nerf in the past was perfectly fine, Legion took that concept and took it to an absurd point. Also, Blizzard has said that they're okay with players being cyclical like in D3, so this "make people keep playing at all times" goes directly against that(and like every time this argument comes up: the ones who actually reach that finish line of being fully geared are not the ones who quit the game because of it anyway)

- - - Updated - - -

Raid encounters at their intended (initial) gear level are not of equal difficulty. By that metric, N is easier than H which is easier than M.

Without -forging, a raid group will rise to its skill cap and (once it has all the gear that drops from the bosses it can do) get stuck there.

With -forging, they can keep playing and slowly get an additional ilvl boost, which will move up the boss on which they get stuck. The raid group keeps moving for longer.

It's just like if Blizzard gradually nerfed bosses, allowing groups to work past bosses that had blocked them, except the players have to work for it rather than just being given nerfs at a particular time,

This was the case before WF/TF as well, just not to the same absurd degree where heroic guilds get carried halfway through mythic almost entirely because they get too good gear.

[Lady Dragonheart]

no. plain and simple. no.

I'm sorry, but placing no counterpoint, zero proof of your claim, and no real rebuttal other than "No - because I say so" only takes away from your otherwise debunked point even further.

[Tradu]

Except for legendaries, the RNG averages out. The effect is to make your ilvl increase gradually taper off rather than run into a BiS wall, and this is entirely intended..

Having a BiS "wall" is perfectly fine. If people aren't good enough to kill the bosses even when they're in BiS gear, they quite simply don't deserve to kill those bosses until they get better.

- - - Updated - - -

Mythic raid ilvl-equivalent procs are extremely rare, not only that, but there is a good chance that they might not have good stats and/or abilities. Combine that with the chance of the item being for a slot that is a BiS legionary, and it makes it even rarer that the titanforged item will be significantly useful, overall.

- - - Updated - - -



That's an absolutely horrible idea and it does nothing but return to what mythic raiders were complaining about before they implimented WF/TF. There was massive complaining about scheduled grinding, people mapping the time it would take to get X gear or X item that sapped all of the excitement out of getting loot since all people did was simcraft the duration for a "farm everything on this chore list, then you can finally raid" schedule. It would be like returning to the dark ages of gearscore grinds, an absolute failed setup of awarding and administering loot.

So it'd be no different than what it is like now, except we'd actually have a defined end point. Seems like an improvement to me.

- - - Updated - - -

Who made you the law?

Are you actually suggesting that it's fair that LFR can drop items that are as good as mythic? That's not how a properly balanced reward structure works. You should be rewarded based on the time/effort/skill required to complete a task, not based on luck alone.

- - - Updated - - -

Warforged was a good idea... Titanforged on the other hand, imo, is a band-aid to keep old content relevant, when it should be left behind.

WF was a good idea for its initial purpose(incentivizing 25man), ever since 20man mythic it has had no purpose other than adding another layer of RNG to loot in order to make people play longer.

[Lady Dragonheart]

So it'd be no different than what it is like now, except we'd actually have a defined end point. Seems like an improvement to me.

Well, the majority has and continues to disagree with that point of view. So, unless you can bring about a better means, then people don't want to be so heavily restricted as you'd wish them to be.

[Tradu]

Well, the majority has and continues to disagree with that point of view. So, unless you can bring about a better means, then people don't want to be so heavily restricted as you'd wish them to be.

The vast majority of people bitching about how restrictive it'd be aren't affected by that end point in the first place.

[Wavebossa]

I would like everyone to log on their characters and post screenshots of all the 925 gear they have gotten outside of mythic raids.
I only have 3 pieces of 925, and all 3 of them were found in mythic NH.

My highest heroic raid titanforge is 905 tier shoulders.

I have seen 1 item higher than 910 drop in any of our heroic nh runs (and I run them on alts too)


TL;DR you're trying to fix an issue that doesn't really exist.
You do not have non-mythic raiders running around in full 910 hc titanforged gear.

Sorry it just isn't happening.

[Teri]

I would like everyone to log on their characters and post screenshots of all the 925 gear they have gotten outside of mythic raids.
I only have 3 pieces of 925, and all 3 of them were found in mythic NH.

My highest heroic raid titanforge is 905 tier shoulders.

I have seen 1 item higher than 910 drop in any of our heroic nh runs (and I run them on alts too)


TL;DR you're trying to fix an issue that doesn't really exist.
You do not have non-mythic raiders running around in full 910 hc titanforged gear.

Sorry it just isn't happening.

This is true. The focus is on FULL gear, not 1-5 super lucky pieces.

Yes I have gotten a 890 Dauntless piece(+40), or 885 from a 840 WQ (+45).

Done 9000 world quest so that's at least like 1000-2000 item drops, and probably over 200 dauntless tokens from rares/chests/turn-in bags.

LFR titanforge would need to go up +70-80 to reach 925, it happens sure, but not 14 times in a row for the same person within a month, otherwise, people should link me someone full LFR 910+ TF.

My highest pieces on my chars are 915 titanforge from a 900 world boss, and a 905 shoulder from a relinquished token.

Now that doesn't mean ToS LFR won't drop 900-910 wf/tf regularly, of course it will, but it's also 30 itemlevels higher then NH. But 955 from LFR will still be extremely rare, mythic raid drops 930-940 base.

I would be perfectly fine if Titanforge couldnt go to 930 in 7.2.5 if the gear isn't from mythic raid or like Mythic+ 20.

[Lady Dragonheart]

The vast majority of people bitching about how restrictive it'd be aren't affected by that end point in the first place.

They absolutely are. Who are the people that complained about no chance of reward from dungeon content and lower end raid difficulties or raids? Mythic raiders. Who are the ones that complained about static gear and BiS requirements for top-end bosses? Mythic raiders. Who are the ones that wanted advancement on the Warforge/Thunderforge concept to better get people breaking into mythic from lower difficulties as well as alts? Mythic raiders. Who are the ones that wanted more relative content that offered them statistical improvements on their current gear, regardless of what they were doing when not raiding? Mythic raiders and hardcore raiders.

I can go on, as well. Let it be said, as it has many, many, times. WF/TF was asked for, primarily, by the hardcore and mythic raider progression groups for quality of life on their part, since quality of life, in the form of easier and more relevant content for them, is extremely rare.


In a general consensus, people that complain about WF/TF are usually non-mythic/non-hardcore raiders that want to relive "the good ol' days."

[Deleted]

Nothing is forced its a video game, Its not curing cancer. Unless ur a WF guild and even then nothing is forced.

You chose to keep running content u don't enjoy.

Not really, I have some friends who are all round high performing players but some failed their trial because they simply didn't play enough and weren't high enough on the AP farm lists for the weeks they trialed. Not to mention one of them was working 14 hour days due to deadlines.
People put a certain expectation on you.

They absolutely are. Who are the people that complained about no chance of reward from dungeon content and lower end raid difficulties or raids? Mythic raiders. Who are the ones that complained about static gear and BiS requirements for top-end bosses? Mythic raiders. Who are the ones that wanted advancement on the Warforge/Thunderforge concept to better get people breaking into mythic from lower difficulties as well as alts? Mythic raiders. Who are the ones that wanted more relative content that offered them statistical improvements on their current gear, regardless of what they were doing when not raiding? Mythic raiders and hardcore raiders.

I can go on, as well. Let it be said, as it has many, many, times. WF/TF was asked for, primarily, by the hardcore and mythic raider progression groups for quality of life on their part, since quality of life, in the form of easier and more relevant content for them, is extremely rare.


In a general consensus, people that complain about WF/TF are usually non-mythic/non-hardcore raiders that want to relive "the good ol' days."

Honestly, ever since it began, Warforging and Titanforging has been an absolutely cancerous system. Most of the high end playerbase doesn't like it because we really don't fancy running old content for a slight chance of an upgrade. And a lot of us feel forced due to peer pressure. The whole system if anything is more so conceived to be more rewarding to the people stuck in Normal and Heroic, so they continue to get that carrot on a stick.
The higher end, once the end boss of a tier is down. We don't really give a shit. And that was the best part of high end raiding, honestly. You push 3-5 nights a week to clear a tier. And once it is on farm, you just raid one night a week, do whatever the hell you want for the rest of the week, and gradually got your gear.

People seem to have this huge misconception that mythic raiders, or high end players in general, play for the gear. We need them lewtz. Can't be further from the truth. Loot is a tool, a tool to be used. Do I want to be continuing to farm EN mythic? Hell no. But I kind of want my BiS trait relic from there (that can be found nowhere else except Black Rook Hold), and if I don't roll the dice on that every week, I feel kind of like I am letting the rest of my team down.
Even back in WotLK and into Cata, generally most of the high end raiding scene wanted a cap on Valor points and such. It's the players that couldn't break into the high end that wanted all this uncapped shit.

Ever since Legion, I feel like I have practically been mono-gaming, and it honestly is terrible. I want to play other games with my friends, but if I play Smite, PUBG or CS with my guild mates, I feel as if that time is wasted because I could have easily done some mythic+, etc.

[Tradu]

They absolutely are. Who are the people that complained about no chance of reward from dungeon content and lower end raid difficulties or raids? Mythic raiders. Who are the ones that complained about static gear and BiS requirements for top-end bosses? Mythic raiders. Who are the ones that wanted advancement on the Warforge/Thunderforge concept to better get people breaking into mythic from lower difficulties as well as alts? Mythic raiders. Who are the ones that wanted more relative content that offered them statistical improvements on their current gear, regardless of what they were doing when not raiding? Mythic raiders and hardcore raiders.

I can go on, as well. Let it be said, as it has many, many, times. WF/TF was asked for, primarily, by the hardcore and mythic raider progression groups for quality of life on their part, since quality of life, in the form of easier and more relevant content for them, is extremely rare.


In a general consensus, people that complain about WF/TF are usually non-mythic/non-hardcore raiders that want to relive "the good ol' days."

What mythic raiders have you been talking to that cared about loot from random heroics/mythic 5mans? Mythic raiders definitely were not the ones complaining about reaching BiS and quitting over it, the vast majority I know really liked being able to be "done" and just chill for a bit before the next raid. WF/TF doesn't help "people break into higher difficulties", it does the exact opposite, and nobody asked for WF/TF to do that either.
Yes, some people wanted more content to do outside of raids. Guess what? That didn't mean making EVERYTHING give way too good gear/rewards in general relative to what content it was. It meant things like adding M+(which got completely fucked by WF/TF as well as the lack of lockouts as well) or just straight up more raid content.
WF/TF was most certainly not primarily asked for by mythic progression raiders, it even existing was a common complaint even back in ToT/SoO when it was first added. A major complaint during To(G)C/ICC was that there were too many raid difficulties that "had" to be cleared every week(10N/10H/25N/25H in To(G)C in addition to 10/25 in ICC), no sane person asked to get that back in the form of WF/TF making LFR/normal/heroic relevant in terms of loot for mythic raiders.

[Erolian]

I'm sorry, but placing no counterpoint, zero proof of your claim, and no real rebuttal other than "No - because I say so" only takes away from your otherwise debunked point even further.

Its like you totally missed the post I made like a page before you typed this out.

I also have legitimately no idea what mythic raiders you've been talking to. In the years since they introduced warforging I've heard nothing but complaints about raid gear simply gaining that extra boost and a collective groan about rng/TF/sockets when they moved it beyond just the little increase that ToT had. Procs for your more casual players are fine but crazy loot rng swings do not make anyone who wants to be competitive in one way or another happy. Its two different mentalities. If it were up to me everyone would have the same gear and the difference would simply be how good you are at the game. Loot was never fun for people like me.

[Osmeric]

Having a BiS "wall" is perfectly fine. If people aren't good enough to kill the bosses even when they're in BiS gear, they quite simply don't deserve to kill those bosses until they get better.

Your comment there reflects an absurd mindset. The purpose of the game isn't to reward the deserving, it's to make money. When you treat it as some kind of morality engine you're going to be disappointed.

[Lady Dragonheart]

What mythic raiders have you been talking to that cared about loot from random heroics/mythic 5mans? Mythic raiders definitely were not the ones complaining about reaching BiS and quitting over it, the vast majority I know really liked being able to be "done" and just chill for a bit before the next raid. WF/TF doesn't help "people break into higher difficulties", it does the exact opposite, and nobody asked for WF/TF to do that either.
Yes, some people wanted more content to do outside of raids. Guess what? That didn't mean making EVERYTHING give way too good gear/rewards in general relative to what content it was. It meant things like adding M+(which got completely fucked by WF/TF as well as the lack of lockouts as well) or just straight up more raid content.
WF/TF was most certainly not primarily asked for by mythic progression raiders, it even existing was a common complaint even back in ToT/SoO when it was first added. A major complaint during To(G)C/ICC was that there were too many raid difficulties that "had" to be cleared every week(10N/10H/25N/25H in To(G)C in addition to 10/25 in ICC), no sane person asked to get that back in the form of WF/TF making LFR/normal/heroic relevant in terms of loot for mythic raiders.

I'm sorry, but unless you have absolute proof that exactly no one asked for it, you're flat out wrong. Bold-faced lies don't improve your point if you're going to present an argument that is baseless and not supported any evidence whatsoever, then you're wasting your time with your mindless ranting. Your habitual lying and unfounded claims hold no sway, extreme exaggerations only display your own lack of belief in your own point.

[Tradu]

Your comment there reflects an absurd mindset. The purpose of the game isn't to reward the deserving, it's to make money. When you treat it as some kind of morality engine you're going to be disappointed.

Well yeah, obviously it's meant to make money in the end, but that can be done without compromising the core reward structure that the game has had for a decade.

- - - Updated - - -

I'm sorry, but unless you have absolute proof that exactly no one asked for it, you're flat out wrong. Bold-faced lies don't improve your point if you're going to present an argument that is baseless and not supported any evidence whatsoever. Your habitual lying and unfounded claims hold no sway, extreme exaggerations only display your own lack of belief in your own point.

You are the one who made up the idea that hardcore/mythic raiders were the ones who asked for it with no proof, so please tell me why I need to absolute proof when you apparently don't? You're the one claiming that mythic raiders as a group asked for it, I'm refuting that point based on actually being part of that "community" and talking to a LOT of people, none of whom(the ones I've talked to) actually want WF/TF to exist. At best they don't care.

[primalmatter]

Your comment there reflects an absurd mindset. The purpose of the game isn't to reward the deserving, it's to make money. When you treat it as some kind of morality engine you're going to be disappointed.

When you turn a game into a you win everytime and your business relies on long term subscription...well your gonna have a bad time.

I think this all started with sunwell badge gear. Once you let people get gear way out of line for the content they do I don't know how you put that genie back into the bottle.

[Osmeric]

I would like everyone to log on their characters and post screenshots of all the 925 gear they have gotten outside of mythic raids.
I only have 3 pieces of 925, and all 3 of them were found in mythic NH.

I have two 920 titanforges, but they are both from M+ weekly chests, not heroic raids. This is on a character that doesn't do M raids but has cleared H NH.

Criticism of the M+ system seems less inept than criticism of the raid loot -forging system.

- - - Updated - - -

When you turn a game into a you win everytime and your business relies on long term subscription...well your gonna have a bad time.

Indeed, WildStar showed that keeping the great majority of undeserving players in their subservient place is the way to go.

Oh wait. WildStar actually showed that's a horrible failing idea.

[Deleted]

I'm sorry, but unless you have absolute proof that exactly no one asked for it, you're flat out wrong. Bold-faced lies don't improve your point if you're going to present an argument that is baseless and not supported any evidence whatsoever, then you're wasting your time with your mindless ranting. Your habitual lying and unfounded claims hold no sway, extreme exaggerations only display your own lack of belief in your own point.

Burden of proof lies with the claimant. I can't go around stating that squirrels cause airport bombings and ask everyone else to disprove me.

I am (or was now, since I quit) a mythic raider since WotLK and BC. I hate the titanforge system. I dislike the AP grind (I like the system, but please, have it have a cap). I never asked for this. Sure, it was nice in Mists when a piece would titanforge back in Throne of Thunder (even then, it was only a 5-10 upgrade iirc), but I actually disliked it. Felt like a cheap carrot on a stick to keep people playing, whilst I'd rater do other content within WoW.
If they want to have some sort of upgrade system in game, do it like the old upgrade system, I didn't mind that. Then you could work for it. Titanforging always felt like gambling to me, gambling with my time.