Tinkers In Our Future?

[Azalar]

What I said 'wrong' to was to your assertion that there is 'no tinker lore'. 'Tinker' exists, for the most part as a synonym for engineer, so the lore of both are one and the same. What is shown greatly indicates that the two are one and the same, synonyms.

How would you solve the engineer/tinker overlapping?

[Thimagryn]

What I said 'wrong' to was to your assertion that there is 'no tinker lore'. 'Tinker' exists, for the most part as a synonym for engineer, so the lore of both are one and the same. What is shown greatly indicates that the two are one and the same, synonyms.

Except that isn't lore. It's a synonym by correlation, one that is not proven by lore. It's opinion. There are examples in game that similarities between use of the names, but correlations aren't evidence that they are the same thing. No different than calling a Death Knight a 'warrior'. That isn't lore.

There is no lore regarding Tinkers being same or different from Engineers. Very rarely is an Engineer referred to as a Tinker by mere mention. At the top of my head, the only times I really see it are tied to the High Tinker title. What other Tinker lore is there?

[Ielenia]

How would you solve the engineer/tinker overlapping?

Remove one or the other.

[Azalar]

Remove one or the other.

Any other possibility that's not so destructive?

[Vx-Odessa-xV]

Okay, so..got bored and somewhat half-made a class idea here if anyone is interested. Just sorta something off the top of my head and thrown together, wanna see what the community thinks and if I should keep fiddling and fine tuning the idea or not.

Anyway..here we go.


--- I may revise the DPS spec into something physical ranged (our second class to use ranged weapons, less goes to waste)


Tinkerer - A master of metals and savy of all that is technology you bring your personal "twisted taste" of the world's progressing future to even the most ancient and savage of combat. With tinkering bots of all shapes, flavors and sizes you take to battle to shield those not as "advanced" as you from harm, dazzle those of weak body and mind, and smite all that stand in the way of you and your army of bots and gadets with a quick mind, overwhelming expertise for tech and the sheer might of the metal and mechanical!


Races: Horde - Orc / Undead / Blood Elf / Goblin
Races: Alliance - Human / Dwarf / Gnome / Worgen
Armor Type - Cloth/Leather/Mail (Mail Specialization) - (Adds a second class to Int-Mail and a third to Agi-Mail)
Weapons - One Hand Swords/Maces/Axes, Fist Weapons, Staves, Wands, Offhands
Roles - Damage / Healer / Tank

Damage Role: "Technomancer" - Armor Specialization (Mail/Int) - Control your own "Knock 'Em Clock 'Em Robot" to do battle at it's master's beck and call. (What bot is depicted would be able to be changed to other bots in game with glyphs/schematics found off mobs. See below.)
-Would play much like a Beast Master hunter does, where it's pet is a large portion of it's damage, while the player would use a mobile turret that spawns and scoots around with them when they're in combat, that the player uses to cast their spells through, controlled by a class cosmetic arm gauntlet/controller they would punch away at the buttons on..cause who has time for reading arcane tomes and reciting long, confusing spells when you can just punch a few buttons and BOOM, all the fun and fireworks is taken care of?
-So they're a caster with a pet, think Frost Mage/Lock meets Beast Master Hunter.

Mastery: "Technomancy" - Increases the damage done by your robots by (insert number here) percent, and gives all your spells a chance to infuse your robot with a random elemental magic, causing it's next attack to deal additional damage of that element.

Healer Role: "Tech Support" - Armor Specialization (Mail/Int) - Use "repair bots" , "displacer fields" and other gadgets to shield and piece back together your allies. Would play somewhat akin to any other direct and splash healer, not really playing to the "HoT" type of healing class at all. Repair bots would do your healing for you be them AOE or direct, teamed with cooldowns that would be gadgets like a Canister Backpack that would appear on the target's back when used and remain for its duration of the ability, "infusing the target with health" (this being their earth shield/HoT type ability) and mechanical turrets/bots (much like in Ulduar) that you could throw down or summon to do different things.
-One could be to put up a turret/summon a bot that does a dome shield that would be akin to the disc Barrier to just mitigate incoming damage for those that stand under it. (Think the Parts Recovery Technicians just before X-T do that spawn those turtle shell like dome "Defense Matrix".)
-Another could be a second healing bot that mimics the heals you're having your first active bot doing/or sends your bot into "overdrive" or "overlocks" it, effectively being a base healing potency output type spell.
-A third cooldown could spawn a little army of tiny "scrap bot" like bots that together channel an AOE heal (work in that even our smaller bots are important to the class and have a purpose).
-A fourth could be a battle rez that would depict your bot shocking your target with a chainlightning like bolt to bring them back to life. (Brings back that old "engineer shocky rez" with the pocket knives they could craft that we rarely if ever see anymore, fun concept and now it'd get new life.)

Mastery: "Blood and Oil" - Your bots' healing spells begin to infuse their targets with "A Taste of the Mechanical", stacking up to 10 times. At 10th application the "Oil in my Veins" effect is triggered, decreasing the damage the target takes from physical and magical sources by 1%. "Oil in my Veins" lasts for 10 seconds, and the target cannot benefit from stacks of "A Taste of the Mechanical" for it's duration.

Tank Role: "Pilot" - Armor Specialization (Mail/Agi/Dual Wields) - Pilot your own "Battle Bot" (Looks like a Venture Co. Shredder) and take the fight to your enemies. Would play like old DKs did in Wrath being able to dual wield tank and how bear tanks work now, with self heals and minor cooldowns , but their minor CDs would give parry or armor rather than dodge, and their self-heals would be "repairs" for themselves. (their Frenzied Regeneration being the spell "Patch Job")
-There would be minor glyphs or an ability specific to the class (Analyze) that you could use on dead mechanical mobs to catalog it's schematic/skin so you can change the bot you mount from a Shredder to instead use their look, giving one of several to choose from to appear as..such as..

Scavengebot
Compactobot
Anima Golem
Spidertank
X-T
Fel Reaver
Mimiron's V-07-TR-0N


Mastery: "Technician" - Increases the armor contribution of your armor to your bot by (insert number here), and the amount your "Patch Job" heals you for by (insert number here) percent

[Ielenia]

There is ample lore to show both similarities and differences,

And where it is? Where is the lore that shows differences?

There is no lore regarding Tinkers being same or different from Engineers.

There is lore suggesting that they're the same. For example, tinkerer Goggles teaches you engineering and how to build an engineering workshop. I think the simple fact that tinkers can teach engineering is a big indicator that they're the same.

[Thimagryn]

There is lore suggesting that they're the same. For example, tinkerer Goggles teaches you engineering and how to build an engineering workshop. I think the simple fact that tinkers can teach engineering is a big indicator that they're the same.

Tinkering goggles, a piece of crafted gear from the Engineering Profession. I brought up Engineering Profession before, and you specifically said it was confusing lore with gameplay. You're doing the exact same thing here.

Again, where is the lore that you're so specific about. Do NPCs call you a Tinker for wearing those fancy Tinkerer Goggles?

[Ielenia]

Any other possibility that's not so destructive?

Not any that still leaves the lore making any sort of sense.

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Tinkering goggles, a piece of crafted gear from the Engineering Profession. I brought up Engineering Profession before, and you specifically called this gameplay.

Tinkerer Goggles, not 'tinkering goggles'. Geez, and I even provided a link!

Again, where is the lore that you're so specific about.

I said suggests they are, not that it states that they are.

[Thimagryn]

Tinkerer Goggles, not 'tinkering goggles'. Geez, and I even provided a link!

So an NPC wearing goggles, which is still not lore?

I said suggests they are, not that it states that they are.

Which isn't proof. By your own standard, you should not able to claim Tinkers and Engineers are the same because you lack any proof in current lore. All you have is a suggestion, derived by gameplay examples.

Are you starting to realize how ridiculous these standards are yet?

[Rhamses]

Remove one or the other.

What a crock... Engineering and a Tinker class would have nothing in common gameplay wise. There's no need for either to be removed if the class is brought in.

[Ielenia]

So an NPC wearing goggles, which is still not lore?

Who.. what... how...? His title is 'tinker'! How can you say his title is not lore?

Which isn't proof. By your own standard, you should not able to claim Tinkers and Engineers are the same because you lack any proof in current lore. All you have is a suggestion, derived by gameplay examples.

"Gameplay examples"? How can you call it "gameplay" when the guy literally says in the quest text that he can show how to work the tech in Draenor? Quest text is not 'gameplay', it's lore

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What a crock... Engineering and a Tinker class would have nothing in common gameplay wise.

Then it's a good thing we're not talking about gameplay, right?

[Chain Chungus]

Tinkers would be fun. If they did that though they would probably need to gut the current Beast Mastery to make it so. BM almost feels like a tinker right now (especially with a mechanical pet), about like how the Glyph of Demon Hunting felt on warlocks before it was removed.

[Rhamses]

Who.. what... how...? His title is 'tinker'! How can you say his title is not lore?


"Gameplay examples"? How can you call it "gameplay" when the guy literally says in the quest text that he can show how to work the tech in Draenor? Quest text is not 'gameplay', it's lore

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Then it's a good thing we're not talking about gameplay, right?

Too bad gameplay matters more than anything else.

[Ielenia]

Too bad gameplay matters more than anything else.

I'm sorry, but why can't we group up with members of the opposing faction to do PvE dungeons or PvE raids? Why can't we communicate with members of the opposing faction, yet, despite some members of the opposing faction clearly speaking fluent common, or orcish, depending on which side you're on? Why are certain races not allowed to pick certain classes?

Why's that again?

[Thimagryn]

Who.. what... how...? His title is 'tinker'! How can you say his title is not lore?

Because there is no lore proving his title equates him to an Engineer. Where is the story here?

"Gameplay examples"? How can you call it "gameplay" when the guy literally says in the quest text that he can show how to work the tech in Draenor? Quest text is not 'gameplay', it's lore

So we know he has the title of Tinker, and he works with tech. This is your proof that Tinker and Engineer is the same thing?

[Rhamses]

I'm sorry, but why can't we group up with members of the opposing faction to do PvE dungeons or PvE raids? Why can't we communicate with members of the opposing faction, yet, despite some members of the opposing faction clearly speaking fluent common, or orcish, depending on which side you're on? Why are certain races not allowed to pick certain classes?

Why's that again?

Because having an opposing faction enhances the gameplay.

[Ielenia]

Because having an opposing faction enhances the gameplay.

And PvP would be unaffected, which is why I said PvE dungeons and PvE raids. You can already easily go into the Orgrimmar dungeon as alliance, and into the two Alliance dungeons as Horde, so why not mix it up?

Also still waiting on the race/combo restrictions explanation.

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Because there is no lore proving his title equates him to an Engineer. Where is the story here?

You call me a troll, but you surely like to act dense, you know? I said it suggests that both are the same, not that it proves that both are the same.

So we know he has the title of Tinker, and he works with tech. This is your proof that Tinker and Engineer is the same thing?

*facepalm* Oh my god, are you really proud of that strawman you tried to pull there? You said:

All you have is a suggestion, derived by gameplay examples.

And when I showed to you it's not a gameplay example, you respond with that up there? Really? Can't you be any more dishonest, Thim?

[Thimagryn]

And when I showed to you it's not a gameplay example, you respond with that up there? Really? Can't you be any more dishonest, Thim?

The eye rolling is the fact that in that example, there is as much evidence to suggest Tinkers are Engineers as there is to suggest Tinkers can also be Engineers. This is no different than disregarding examples of Mekkatorque having the High Tinker title and being able to ride a Battle Mech; which itself is a suggestion that Tinkers in lore can use Battle Mechs. Your opinon is that those NPCs are Engineers and that the terms are the same thing, but they are just as likely to be separate names used for NPCs who hold both titles.

Honestly, if we swapped these words with 'Dark Ranger', 'Hunter' and 'use of Bows', we'd come out with the same inconclusive position regarding current lore.

[Ielenia]

The eye rolling is the fact that in that example, there is as much evidence to suggest Tinkers are Engineers as there is to suggest Tinkers can also be Engineers.

Not at all, because there is nothing in the game that suggests that they are not one and the same.

This is no different than disregarding examples of Mekkatorque having the High Tinker title and being able to ride a Battle Mech; which itself is a suggestion that Tinkers in lore can use Battle Mechs.

'High Tinker' is a political title. But even if it wasn't we also have Siegecrafter Blackfuse and Endgineer Omegaplugg, two engineers riding a battle mech. So we're back to the most likely assumption that the two are one and the same.

Honestly, if we swapped these words with 'Dark Ranger', 'Hunter' and 'use of Bows', we'd come out with the same inconclusive position regarding current lore.

Not really.

[Thimagryn]

Not at all, because there is nothing in the game that suggests that they are not one and the same.

Nor is there anything in the game that suggest they are one and the same.

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'High Tinker' is a political title. But even if it wasn't we also have Siegecrafter Blackfuse and Endgineer Omegaplugg, two engineers riding a battle mech. So we're back to the most likely assumption that the two are one and the same.

It's also completely plausible that High Tinker, Siegecrafter and Endgineer are all separate class titles that are collectively described using the catch-all 'Engineer'. This is also attributed to the fact that all three are proficient at engineering. Lore doesn't suggest they are the same class any more than it says they are separate, the lore is neutral in this case.