Should WF/TF have a cap?

[Xercin]

I do not like the WF/TF system at all right now. Having a BiS list that I can work toward and complete is one of the best feelings once that goal is reached. Did I quit the game when I got that BiS? Nope. It was nice to have the group see how much more efficient we could get at killing bosses on the weekly clears when everyone had full BiS. It's not like everyone in the group getting all the gear happened at once. It still takes months for the entire raid to get that, so time investment just to work toward the goal was never a problem.

I just don't see how this current WF/TF is a good idea other then to prevent a large group of people from actually having incentive to try their hand at mythic raiding when they don't feel that the effort to reward ratio is worth it.

[Raelbo]

Ok, I'm open for suggestions then. I'm at 914 avg i-lvl clear mythic and heroic every week. What goal would you suggest for me, world quest rewards and LFR/Normal is pointless as the base rewards are too low to bother. My next trait cost 1.1b AP and a good token gives about 1% of that so AP farming isn't all that rewarding.

It's pretty simple really: You have enough gear. You don't need BiS in every slot. Focus on doing the things you enjoy doing and/or offer sufficiently decent chance of reward that justifies your efforts. And if you're bored, take a break. Do some pet battles, get a fishing artifact, try out archaeology, farm a mount, complete a transmog set. Or maybe get out, do some exercise, cook a healthy meal, get a good night's rest. You have the freedom to choose. You're not going to get BiS in every slot and in a few weeks it won't matter anyway. So enjoy yourself because that's the best way to make sure that your committment to the game is worth it


Let me ask you this: Why did people ever bother with BiS in the first place? It's because once they have it then they no longer feel the need to carry on farming. Once people have BiS, they either stop raiding, which indicates that they didn't really want to for so long in the first place, or they carry on but feel bored. In either, removing the realistic prospect of BiS in every slot solves the problem. If you're only farming because you feel compelled to get BiS, then you can stop earlier. If you want to carry on farming because you like it, then at least there is always the possibility of a reward.

[Deleted]

It will also give more incentive to do harder content.

Oh, you mean how mythic already gives a higher ilvl baseline compared to other difficulties? Yeah, it's already in there.

[Nnyco]

I thought titanforged had a 50 ilvl cap, and all gear has a 925 ilvl cap.

theres no cap but +50 is a 0.1%~ chance so its near impossible

[ComputerNerd]

Warforged should be 5
Titanforged should be 10

None of this having to wear my normal gear because it procced 40 ilvls, whilst my mythic gear gets disenchanted because it didn't, bollucks.

And due to rng and undesirable stats, it has already been that way for a long time.
Good gear from lower tiers has often been better than mediocre gear from a higher one.
The forging system didn't create that situation.

[Drusin]

I'd rather they both be removed

[Garybear]

It is funny to see how many people only did content for gear and not for fun. Now people can actually enjoy the game and still get pretty geared. This game should not have to feel like a job to get anywhere and I kind of feel that's what made people choose other games throughout the years. Now casuals finally get something to make them enjoy the game.

All the tryhard/elitist people just abuse the system. Because of them we have weekly lockouts, gated content, many different difficulties and until now all the real rewards were always tied into raiding.
tl;dr Could the tryhard/elitist people for once actually enjoy the game so everyone else can be happy too?

[Redblade]

It's pretty simple really: You have enough gear. You don't need BiS in every slot. Focus on doing the things you enjoy doing and/or offer sufficiently decent chance of reward that justifies your efforts.

What if I enjoy mythic raiding and perfecting my char? There is not other content for me.

And if you're bored, take a break.

Yeah great game design...stop playing.

Do some pet battles, get a fishing artifact, try out archaeology, farm a mount, complete a transmog set.

I have hundreds of mounts I don't use already and about the same for transmogs, playing at the highest level means you pretty much have all gear at some point. Pet battle, Archaeology and Fishing...I'd rather drink fucking bleach.

Or maybe get out, do some exercise, cook a healthy meal, get a good night's rest. You have the freedom to choose. You're not going to get BiS in every slot and in a few weeks it won't matter anyway. So enjoy yourself because that's the best way to make sure that your committment to the game is worth it

Again who the fuck are you dictating what I should and shouldn't do? I sleep just fine and both exercise and eat well enough.

Let me ask you this: Why did people ever bother with BiS in the first place? It's because once they have it then they no longer feel the need to carry on farming. Once people have BiS, they either stop raiding, which indicates that they didn't really want to for so long in the first place, or they carry on but feel bored. In either, removing the realistic prospect of BiS in every slot solves the problem. If you're only farming because you feel compelled to get BiS, then you can stop earlier. If you want to carry on farming because you like it, then at least there is always the possibility of a reward.

I farmed BiS because I'm a completionist and because I'd like my char to be as prepared for the next tier as possible. The latter is what you don't seem to grasp, players like my self will do what it takes to have what ever advantage you can get come next tier. This is why split runs have become a thing because it bypasses the lockout. If Blizzard truly wanted players to make their own decisions they would just remove lockouts and let players raid as much as they want.

[Zoldor]

I'd rather see the ilvl procs removed and just have tertiary stats and sockets.

But, the system is there. I don't mind it in its current form, mainly because I don't care who has what gear and I don't care if my best piece says LFR or Mythic, I know the content I do and I know there isn't anyone out there inspecting me anymore. My overall ilvl and logs are good enough. If you only do LFR and managed to sacrifice enough wrath babies to Rnjesus to get a lfr 925, that one piece isn't going to pull your ilvl to that of say the average heroic raider.

I think some of you need to understand the chance you have at actually rolling an LFR piece to 925, can it happen, yes. Is it super common no, otherwise I'd know a lot more people rocking 925 gear. Either way it doesn't affect anything but people who want to stand around and say pleb! Pleb! PLEB! Your achievements, mounts, transmog, etc are the ilvl of years yore. And you'd have to be the most unlucky raider ever to be clearing mythic and be out ilvl'd by an LFR hero.

Capping the system based on difficulty tier isn't going to fix the problem for completionists. Removal of the system does, and I'm all for that.

[Redblade]

Oh, you mean how mythic already gives a higher ilvl baseline compared to other difficulties? Yeah, it's already in there.

You do realize that it's more efficient to clear heroic in 4x split runs than clearing mythic once right? My guild only does 2x split runs through HC and I'm quite sure we had more 920+ loot from that than our mythic clears.

[Deleted]

You do realize that it's more efficient to clear heroic in 4x split runs than clearing mythic once right? My guild only does 2x split runs through HC and I'm quite sure we had more 920+ loot from that than our mythic clears.

Good for you, funneling items has always been beneficial, this is nothing new. This still doesn't change the fact that mythic gives you harder content and higher baseline ilvl, as i said.

[Redblade]

It is funny to see how many people only did content for gear and not for fun.

They are not mutually exclusive...

Now people can actually enjoy the game and still get pretty geared.

Nothing stopped them before.

All the tryhard/elitist people just abuse the system. Because of them we have weekly lockouts, gated content, many different difficulties and until now all the real rewards were always tied into raiding.
tl;dr Could the tryhard/elitist people for once actually enjoy the game so everyone else can be happy too?

You attribute things to "tryhards/elitist people" that they have no hand in designing...lockouts and gating have been around for as long as the game has been online. (And besides, what I propose would actually benefit the "casual plebs" just as much as the next guy.)

[Zoldor]

You do realize that it's more efficient to clear heroic in 4x split runs than clearing mythic once right? My guild only does 2x split runs through HC and I'm quite sure we had more 920+ loot from that than our mythic clears.

That has nothing to do with clearing mythic or heroic. That is just basic probability increases because you are running 40 people (assuming 20 a split) through double the amount of bosses each week. You have a higher chance of rolling a higher ilvl War or Titan piece out of Mythic, just because the random number generator only has to hit a win a couple times vs the amount of times it is needed in heroic, normal etc. If you were running 2x Mythic runs you'd have a higher over all ilvl. Now if you aren't one shotting those bosses I can see from an efficiency standpoint, but even then your probability of higher ilvl will always come from mythic your anecdotal evidence aside.

[Jaylock]

Should WF and TF have a cap? For example WF would be 5 ilvl and TF would be 10ilvl and make it more rare depending on what difficulty you are doing. LFR would have the lowest chance while mythic would have a higher chance.

NH Raid
Base/WF/TF
LFR 875/880/885
N 885/890/900
H 900/905/915
M 915/920/925

Yes it should. Tiers of content are less meaningful if you can get the same ilvl gear from lesser shitty forms of content that the bads participate in.

[Redblade]

Good for you, funneling items has always been beneficial, this is nothing new. This still doesn't change the fact that mythic gives you harder content and higher baseline ilvl, as i said.

The problem is that the baseline is just 10 i-lvl which is why it becomes skewed effort vs reward wise. Clearing heroic multiple times in the same amount of time you would spend clearing mythic once provides you with more upgrades. This is why I'm saying add a higher chance for WF/TF based on difficulty.

[barackohmama]

Tell that to the Ret that coined a 925 Draught with a socket from LFR Guldan, what you're saying is right but you're also essentially saying "yeah its okay you'll just get lucky again"... But what if I Titanforge to the ilvl cap?

Well why would I care about that dude in LFR? He had a once in a lifetime luck moment, good for him. Chances to get 925 with socket is like 0.00001%. In Mythic raid situations you'll see far more 925 from mythic gear than from LFR. To me that's what makes my time spent in mythic worthwhile. If i'm lucky ill have a couple of 925 pieces at the end of the tier. Most people who only run LFR won't have any, but if they are extremely lucky they might get one, like that ret pala. I think it's a fair deal.

Btw DoS is an extreme example. I have a 905 HC one on my warrior. That's 5 ilvls below Mythic gul'dan one. Some guys have gotten 920+ HC ones. And in the case of DoS killing mythic gul'dan is not worthwhile, especially since ToS raid is coming out very soon. But endbosses are always different. First they are the bosses which you don't need more gear from to beat next boss, since once you defeat them you are done. Second the time you have to farm them compared to HC version is very limited unless you are a in a top guild. So most people will run around with HC DoS WF/TF starting in ToS. It could've made a huge impact going into ToS since the dps difference between a 895 DoS and 925 DoS is substantial. But now it's getting nerfed by 40% and it should've been done long time ago tbh. It was a bad decision of blizz just to leave it considering how powerful it is combined with Battle Cry.

[Redblade]

That has nothing to do with clearing mythic or heroic. That is just basic probability increases because you are running 40 people (assuming 20 a split) through double the amount of bosses each week. You have a higher chance of rolling a higher ilvl War or Titan piece out of Mythic, just because the random number generator only has to hit a win a couple times vs the amount of times it is needed in heroic, normal etc. If you were running 2x Mythic runs you'd have a higher over all ilvl. Now if you aren't one shotting those bosses I can see from an efficiency standpoint, but even then your probability of higher ilvl will always come from mythic your anecdotal evidence aside.

Yeah but that's the thing, you basically have time to do 2x heroic runs in the same time it takes to clear mythic. And due to the small i-lvl difference base and how you have a higher potential upgrade span on heroic gear mythic is less rewarding. It's backwards that the content that takes the most skill/time has the least benefit in the current system.

[Toogoodman]

It is funny to see how many people only did content for gear and not for fun. Now people can actually enjoy the game and still get pretty geared. This game should not have to feel like a job to get anywhere and I kind of feel that's what made people choose other games throughout the years. Now casuals finally get something to make them enjoy the game.

All the tryhard/elitist people just abuse the system. Because of them we have weekly lockouts, gated content, many different difficulties and until now all the real rewards were always tied into raiding.
tl;dr Could the tryhard/elitist people for once actually enjoy the game so everyone else can be happy too?

Im confused, you say try hards are elitist? just because someone tries harder to attain a goal in this game doesn't make them elitist. Also, people could say you fall into the entitled crowd by saying you want the same gear, or better, than someone whos doing Mythic raiding.

Also, you blame Mythic try hard's for multiple difficulties? the reason the lower difficulties exist is because after vanilla and TBC, where a small % of players killed C'thun, KT, Illidan, and KJ, the casual crowd cried how they never get to see content, so easier raids with "hardmodes" build in were created, which lead to heroic/normal, which then more QQing lead to Mythic/heroic/normal/LFR. The fact that the casual crowd cried for a "normal" easier mode of the raids, then got so "entitled" and lazy, that we ended up with LFR, is completely the fault of said casuals.

Hardcore players also enjoy actually pushing themselves and the game, how many people do you know that strictly play casual style games? those are called mobile games, if you want to do nothing and achieve "end game", go play mobile strike.

- - - Updated - - -

Yes it should. Tiers of content are less meaningful if you can get the same ilvl gear from lesser shitty forms of content that the bads participate in.

WF/TF "works" right now because we've only had the "intro raid" and the first tier, Blizzard is going to see some bad effects of people wearing T19 sets with 950 TF while progressing on Argus, and they're not going to like that at all. The system simply wont work as we get deeper into content, and tier lines start to get blurred.

[Garybear]

Im confused, you say try hards are elitist? just because someone tries harder to attain a goal in this game doesn't make them elitist. Also, people could say you fall into the entitled crowd by saying you want the same gear, or better, than someone whos doing Mythic raiding.

Also, you blame Mythic try hard's for multiple difficulties? the reason the lower difficulties exist is because after vanilla and TBC, where a small % of players killed C'thun, KT, Illidan, and KJ, the casual crowd cried how they never get to see content, so easier raids with "hardmodes" build in were created, which lead to heroic/normal, which then more QQing lead to Mythic/heroic/normal/LFR. The fact that the casual crowd cried for a "normal" easier mode of the raids, then got so "entitled" and lazy, that we ended up with LFR, is completely the fault of said casuals.

Hardcore players also enjoy actually pushing themselves and the game, how many people do you know that strictly play casual style games? those are called mobile games, if you want to do nothing and achieve "end game", go play mobile strike.

And this is exactly why the community ruins the game. You people will never change and always feel so attacked.
Also you're in a high end mythic raiding guild. You guys have already completed the tier so I do not know why titanforging enrages you. You're done, you finished your achievement.

[Deleted]

The cap should be the ilvl of the loot dropped off of last boss (in mythic) from current tier. And don't increase the cap on previous raids to avoid delirious situation like farming for an Arcanocrystal or something.