Should WF/TF have a cap?

[Raiju]

So you also do not understand it. If there is a cap, the whole feature is useless and can be removed.
Which obv should not be done.

This is incorrect. The intention of TF was to be able to get relevant gear even while doing easier content (rarely), but what has actually happened is that there's no gear related reason to do mythic in terms of effort required for most. You will not get 'the best gear' from mythic raiding with any guarantee, and in extreme cases you may not use mythic raid gear at all while clearing it every week.

This is an inherent issue with the 'just below difficulties' of heroic / mythic+ moreso than LFR. These are drastically easier and as much as I enjoy M+ and it's been my content this expansion - it is just as much of an offender here since you can get a char equivalent geared to mythic raiders within a week just spamming M+'s (and not even that many, really)

If all other content capped at base mythic gear and mythic gear had 10-15ilvls wf/TF cap above it wouldn't break any part of the current system, it'd still entirely fill its goals while incentivizing mythic raiding again as the most difficult and therefore best rewarding pve progression.

[Garybear]

The best guilds got ahead on gear early and stay ahead because of a bunch of factors(more weeks of farm, split raids etc), so it's not that they get lucky, they just get further and further ahead with how loot is set up currently. And some hardcore players, probably, but a lot of hardcore players actually want performance/time spent in the progress raids to be the what ends up being shown in the rankings, with gear being as minor a factor as possible. A lot of top guilds/players in top guilds hate splits, but they do them because it gives them an advantage. The less important gear is, the less pressure there is to do dumb shit like split raids or grinding content that you've outgrown.

Are mythic raiders not in full WF/TF ilv capped gear by now? My impression was you get ilv capped gear within 2-3 weeks of having mythic on farm and since its the end of the raid tier don't most of you guys have that on farm?

[Turismon]

I raid max HC, so many won't take my words serious, but i really like, that even while I killed all HC bosses lots of times all have the opportunity to provide me upgrades. And no they don't need to tf to 925 on some slots 895 would be enough. In the past many bosse offered 2-3 trashitems(because of stat distribution) and 1-2 good items. You got those 2 = all loot was crap. And now? While certainly there are still trashitems , but tfed high enough even those may be interesting. Got the 2 Items? Still the possibility to get them with higher tf or socket etc.
It's nigh to impossible to "finish" a char, but to be honest i don't care. I set a point where the equip is good enough in my eyes and if I want move to an alt.
@previous Post: playing since classic. Still playing a lot. So I consider myself a longterm customer. For me the system isn't perfect, but better than without tf.

You sir, understand life. All these other whiners have nothing but "it's not fair" syndrome. I think the system was a good idea, gives reason to do Normal/Heroic on mains and still have a chance at an upgrade outside of AP. The chances of getting this gear is low enough it really doesn't matter. One peice and the world turns upside down that some pleb has a higher DoS than their Heroic DoS from LFR...QQ.

[orgonutil]

It will also give more incentive to do harder content.

you already have the incentivo, is much harder to get and 925 proc from a lfr item than from and normal, heroic and mythic

[Tradu]

Are mythic raiders not in full WF/TF ilv capped gear by now? My impression was you get ilv capped gear within 2-3 weeks of having mythic on farm and since its the end of the raid tier don't most of you guys have that on farm?

Not even remotely close.

[Garybear]

This is incorrect. The intention of TF was to be able to get relevant gear even while doing easier content (rarely), but what has actually happened is that there's no gear related reason to do mythic in terms of effort required for most. You will not get 'the best gear' from mythic raiding with any guarantee, and in extreme cases you may not use mythic raid gear at all while clearing it every week.

This is an inherent issue with the 'just below difficulties' of heroic / mythic+ moreso than LFR. These are drastically easier and as much as I enjoy M+ and it's been my content this expansion - it is just as much of an offender here since you can get a char equivalent geared to mythic raiders within a week just spamming M+'s (and not even that many, really)

If all other content capped at base mythic gear and mythic gear had 10-15ilvls wf/TF cap above it wouldn't break any part of the current system, it'd still entirely fill its goals while incentivizing mythic raiding again as the most difficult and therefore best rewarding pve progression.

The whole point of M+ is so dungeoneers can be equally geared as mythic raiders.

[Tradu]

The whole point of M+ is so dungeoneers can be equally geared as mythic raiders.

Which is flawed, because they shouldn't be. The difficulty of the M+ required to get equal gear is not even remotely the same difficulty as mythic raids, even ignoring the lower amount of coordination required. And again, raids have lockouts on that gear, M+ doesn't, which is a pretty huge difference(and problem, because it makes M+ a supplement to raiding, not an alternative)

[Garybear]

Not even remotely close.

Is it not on farm? Or is it just more likely to get a 30 ilv titanforge from heroic than to get a 15 ilv titanforge on a mythic piece due to split runs. Not too familiar on the proc chance of ilv warforging but wouldn't you need to do like 2-4 split runs of heroic and then hope the loot is tradeable?
Also if gear is all you care about why even mythic raid at that point? It seems to be more of an achievement than anything.

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Which is flawed, because they shouldn't be. The difficulty of the M+ required to get equal gear is not even remotely the same difficulty as mythic raids, even ignoring the lower amount of coordination required. And again, raids have lockouts on that gear, M+ doesn't, which is a pretty huge difference(and problem, because it makes M+ a supplement to raiding, not an alternative)

Blizz said they wanted an alternate gearing path. Would you suggest m+ has a separate lockout. Or even make them mutually exclusive where you cannot do both in the same week. They would probs have to put the tier/trinks into the dungeons so people aren't upset loot is in one and not the other.

[BannedForViews]

So you also do not understand it. If there is a cap, the whole feature is useless and can be removed.
Which obv should not be done.

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Because the change in heroic is much, much smaller to get that gear piece than in mythic.
If tf would cap below mythic there simply would be no reason to do heroic it all.

First, it is would not be useless. Second, obviously should not be done? An unfounded opinion.

[Tradu]

Is it not on farm? Or is it just more likely to get a 30 ilv titanforge from heroic than to get a 15 ilv titanforge on a mythic piece due to split runs. Not too familiar on the proc chance of ilv warforging but wouldn't you need to do like 2-4 split runs of heroic and then hope the loot is tradeable?
Also if gear is all you care about why even mythic raid at that point? It seems to be more of an achievement than anything.

It is on farm, but there's very few people that are as geared as you think every mythic raider is(and a lot of those, if not all of them, are because they supplement their raid gear with M+ and high rated PvP gear). And it's not that gear is all people care about, it's that people care about being competitive, which includes gettng the best gear they can(in order to be prepared for the next tier)

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Blizz said they wanted an alternate gearing path. Would you suggest m+ has a separate lockout. Or even make them mutually exclusive where you cannot do both in the same week. They would probs have to put the tier/trinks into the dungeons so people aren't upset loot is in one and not the other.

Honestly it doesn't matter what Blizzard "wants", what matters is what they actually put in the game, and M+ in the live game is not an alternate gearing path, it's a supplement. And what I'd suggest is that M+ should have a lockout(just one way of doing it), because that way it'd be able to reward good baseline gear(and possibly tier, M+ already has a ton of strong trinkets, especially before NH), rather being the thing you spend all your available non-raid time grinding if you're after gear

[BannedForViews]

you already have the incentivo, is much harder to get and 925 proc from a lfr item than from and normal, heroic and mythic

You can't compare average results to individual experiences. There are plenty of mythic raiders with lower ilvls than heroic raiders, simply because of titanforging. Also, loot councils throw the entire thing off, whereby officers will funnel the better gear to themselves or other specific players. Titanforge is very corrupting. Two Whispers drop off heroic Guldan, one 895 and one 920. Clearly, imo, the 920 should never have dropped, since the difference between heroic and Mythic Guldan is night and day, but who gets which? If you think people aren't taking advantage of others to make sure their ilvl is much higher than it should be, you're very naive.

[Garybear]

It is on farm, but there's very few people that are as geared as you think every mythic raider is(and a lot of those, if not all of them, are because they supplement their raid gear with M+ and high rated PvP gear). And it's not that gear is all people care about, it's that people care about being competitive, which includes gettng the best gear they can(in order to be prepared for the next tier)

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Honestly it doesn't matter what Blizzard "wants", what matters is what they actually put in the game, and M+ in the live game is not an alternate gearing path, it's a supplement. And what I'd suggest is that M+ should have a lockout(just one way of doing it), because that way it'd be able to reward good baseline gear(and possibly tier, M+ already has a ton of strong trinkets, especially before NH), rather being the thing you spend all your available non-raid time grinding if you're after gear

Maybe nighthold was just too hard/short so that the majority of mythic raiders should have it on farm sooner? Or maybe just have mythic gear be the ilv cap so once you get a mythic piece it is your BiS

[Turismon]

This is incorrect. The intention of TF was to be able to get relevant gear even while doing easier content (rarely), but what has actually happened is that there's no gear related reason to do mythic in terms of effort required for most. You will not get 'the best gear' from mythic raiding with any guarantee, and in extreme cases you may not use mythic raid gear at all while clearing it every week.

This is an inherent issue with the 'just below difficulties' of heroic / mythic+ moreso than LFR. These are drastically easier and as much as I enjoy M+ and it's been my content this expansion - it is just as much of an offender here since you can get a char equivalent geared to mythic raiders within a week just spamming M+'s (and not even that many, really)

If all other content capped at base mythic gear and mythic gear had 10-15ilvls wf/TF cap above it wouldn't break any part of the current system, it'd still entirely fill its goals while incentivizing mythic raiding again as the most difficult and therefore best rewarding pve progression.

No not really. Everyone on this post is bypassing the real problem. It's the trading of gear. Everyone gets geared so fast now, and those people that get higher ilvl stuff trade all their lower ilvl stuff, specially thanks to legendaries in those slots and poof, incentive goes away fast because everyone has the gear.

This would be even worse if we didn't have WF/TF because everyone would for sure have all the gear by now, at least there are chances at upgrades consistently.

[Tradu]

Maybe nighthold was just too hard/short so that the majority of mythic raiders should have it on farm sooner? Or maybe just have mythic gear be the ilv cap so once you get a mythic piece it is your BiS

Having it automatically capped could work as well, yes(still leaves the issue of a broken reward structure below that level, though). And no, the reason people aren't in full 925 is because it's designed so you don't hit that point, because Blizzard thinks that mythic also needs the same random ilevel gear to keep people clearing it(which, based on personal experience as well as talking to a lot of people, is not the case)

[Redblade]

Maybe nighthold was just too hard/short so that the majority of mythic raiders should have it on farm sooner? Or maybe just have mythic gear be the ilv cap so once you get a mythic piece it is your BiS

NH was one of the best raids as far as difficulty curve and balance goes. The WF/TF system in it's current form is the problem, I suggested a solution but apparently that's rubbing some people the wrong way...why is mind-boggling to me, especially seeing as they are not mythic raiders and it would actually benefit them if they raid heroic.

[Toogoodman]

Are mythic raiders not in full WF/TF ilv capped gear by now? My impression was you get ilv capped gear within 2-3 weeks of having mythic on farm and since its the end of the raid tier don't most of you guys have that on farm?

https://www.wowprogress.com/character/us/area-52/Razrs

This is my character, not even remotely close to "max" ilvl, and im approaching 20 M kills on the initial 5 bosses. I have 4 925 items, 2 of which i equip for my primary dps set (relic and cloak). The fact that my 925 relic is a heroic Tich drop, and my other 2 non used ones are from M+ says a lot.

Please excuse the pvp talents

[Garybear]

Having it automatically capped could work as well, yes(still leaves the issue of a broken reward structure below that level, though). And no, the reason people aren't in full 925 is because it's designed so you don't hit that point, because Blizzard thinks that mythic also needs the same random ilevel gear to keep people clearing it(which, based on personal experience as well as talking to a lot of people, is not the case)

Now that I think of it the titanforging helps mythic become easier too as the raid tier goes on. Having it be the cap would likely only let the top 1000 guilds ever finish it due to the difficulty even at BiS gear.

[razisgosu]

There is zero reason LFR loot needs to titanforge to mythic warforged ilvl. There should absolutely be a cap.

[Tradu]

Now that I think of it the titanforging helps mythic become easier too as the raid tier goes on. Having it be the cap would likely only let the top 1000 guilds ever finish it due to the difficulty even at BiS gear.

Mythic is the highest difficulty, if people want to clear it, they should not rely on that RNG gear to do it, they should get good enough. On the other difficulties, maybe they need the gear, but on mythic that should not be a thing.

[Garybear]

https://www.wowprogress.com/character/us/area-52/Razrs

This is my character, not even remotely close to "max" ilvl, and im approaching 20 M kills on the initial 5 bosses. I have 4 925 items, 2 of which i equip for my primary dps set (relic and cloak). The fact that my 925 relic is a heroic Tich drop, and my other 2 non used ones are from M+ says a lot.

Please excuse the pvp talents

I thought you guys were 10/10. Also this raid tier does seem very short being only 6/7 weeks? Maybe that shortness is the problem. You haven't had the chance to farm the content long enough to not only complete it but also get at least most of the rewards.