The Future of Mythic+ in 7.2.5

[SnowFs]

If players can't practice things that are too hard for them, how are they meant to improve? Isn't overcoming challenges a part of the fun of gaming? I am not saying this should be mandatory for players, but shouldn't they at least the option to if they wish it?

I'm not getting the point here.

If you're willing to rerun the same dungeon 5~10 times at the same level with no reward, what's the difference from running different 5~10 dungeons to upgrade the level between running the same dungeon, if you're not getting any reward anyway and only what to boost ego in Mythic+ Leaderboards? Yes, I've read already the "we need to practice" excuse, but to me looks more like you're wanting a chance to do the same thing over and over again until you are able to cheese it, what doesn't sound so much of challenge more than a patience test. Now, it's good to keep in mind that some dungeons are impossible for some groups compositions. You won't ever be able to finish and EoA +22 with Tyrannical if everyone doesn't have a way to immune itself or the others for the Crushing Depths. Some things can't be perfectly balanced around 5mans content.

Planning beforehand, knowing the dungeon for the pulls you're/you're not able to do, knowing your CDs to foresight if they will/will not be up for the next pack/boss where you will need it, and coordinating all the CDs and the times needed looks way more challenging than just doing the same thing over and over until you eliminate all those problems just because you've run it so many times that all you need to do is follow the script of what worked from previous runs.

[Meowchan]

High keys absolutely require practice and that is not an excuse. Would you consider a raid boss taking multiple attempts to be 'a patience test' until 'players are able to cheese it'?

[Emancptr]

Yes, I've read already the "we need to practice" excuse, but to me looks more like you're wanting a chance to do the same thing over and over again until you are able to cheese it, what doesn't sound so much of challenge more than a patience test.

This is not how high level mythic+ keys work at all. You don't just magically "cheese" things suddenly. Does your guild magically "cheese" Mythic Gul'dan when they finally killed it?

Planning beforehand, knowing the dungeon for the pulls you're/you're not able to do, knowing your CDs to foresight if they will/will not be up for the next pack/boss where you will need it, and coordinating all the CDs and the times needed looks way more challenging...

How do I do any of this without running the dungeons multiple times on the same difficulty? The answer is, I can't. The amount you can pull, CD timings, and gear sets for specific bosses (prdyaz or not) all drastically change with different mythic+ levels. All three of those things can change between even a minor key difference like a +23 and a +24/25.

Edit* Basically what Meowchan said.

[Khain]

I bet like only 100 players were upset about this change.

[Emancptr]

I bet like only 100 players were upset about this change.

Probably. And do you know how many would be upset about the change we're asking for? 0

[Jimson]

Probably. And do you know how many would be upset about the change we're asking for? 0

There's two reasons I can see them not implementing such a thing: 1) They don't think the amount of people affected is worth having a different set of rules (and if you go down the line, the amount of people such a change would affect is much larger than then amount of people pushing +20, since anyone could lock a key), or 2) They didn't think of it.

[Raiju]

There are plenty of people who love to push keys, but don't want to push more if it depletes. Once it's depleted it's done, they don't want to practice and force a run to be done in time.

For those people, this change is AMAZING.

Yeah, loads of people depleted 5 (or more if you run with more than 5 over the week) prog keys a week without wanting to run more.

Oh no, absolute edge case or idiots who didn't realize the rest of the group had keys. Point stands that vast majority of people who push keys unless *ALL* they do is push keys (as in 0 3 chest appropriate runs) and refuse to run a depleted key they know they can do (lol) and are doing 20+ currently...

Wow those qualifiers.

[Socialhealer]

Not really. Pulls that work on a +23 might not work on the +25/26. Boss abilities that don't 1-shot you on +23 might 1-shot you on +25 (requiring prydaz/stam flask).

With the 7.2.5 changes I get one chance at that +25. Do I pull more conservatively so we don't wipe? Do I Prydaz every boss so I don't get 1-shot? What if I miss timer because I had to make all these conservative changes to how I was doing the dungeon?

and you should notice that when you do the +23, like when the last boss BRH does the first shadowbolt volley before you get the buff, if you live by 200k hp shit i won't survive that on +25 you'll have to use your brain, and judgement to decide what you can survive and how close you are to dying.

and why wouldn't pulls work on +25 if they worked on +23? it's just damage/health you know you're going to take more damage prepare for that you know the mobs will live a little longer etc. it's not like you're going in blind and cannot fathom whats required on the next pull.

[Starscream101]

I miss the days of BC dungeons the CC and pulling on normal or hard. Today still just a Zerg fest on trash needs to go back to the old BC model of dungeons with dungeons set gear none of this 20 different ILvLs of the same gear. You got your Normal and Hero gear and people knew you could work as a team by just looking at you not even had to inspect your gear now its whats his ILvL. Just needs to go back to Normal Hard and 1 lvl of mythic.

[BiggestNoob]

I was thinking about this the other day, I know groups will attempt 25/26 keys over and over refining their strategy and making fewer mistakes until they can hit the timer, and depleted keys are required to do this. I thought a better solution would be to let people downgrade their keys if they want, or deplete the key.

Now its gonna become -->Run it, fail-->Run -1-->Push new key-->Fail-->Repeat-->Cry at Blizzard how challenge is gone because now you cant win by repetitiveness.

In other words, now its harder for the wannabees to act all pro, its easier for everyone else that doesnt give a fuck if someone does a +20 when they are just farming gear at +10 because now if the key fails you arent fucked and no one will run with you cause there is no reward.

You do realize that's how people get good at literally anything, right? Practice?

And the gear cap is going to be at +15 now, which if you're struggling with +10s on top of the buffs they're all receiving, you're pretty fucked.

[Emancptr]

and you should notice that when you do the +23, like when the last boss BRH does the first shadowbolt volley before you get the buff, if you live by 200k hp shit i won't survive that on +25 you'll have to use your brain, and judgement to decide what you can survive and how close you are to dying.

and why wouldn't pulls work on +25 if they worked on +23? it's just damage/health you know you're going to take more damage prepare for that you know the mobs will live a little longer etc. it's not like you're going in blind and cannot fathom whats required on the next pull.

My favorite thing in the world is to have people that literally have not pushed a high key in their life tell me how easy it is. And how it's so obvious what needs to be done between a +23 and +25. Yep, dude you definitely know more about this than me.

[Emerald Archer]

Yeah, loads of people depleted 5 (or more if you run with more than 5 over the week) prog keys a week without wanting to run more.

Oh no, absolute edge case or idiots who didn't realize the rest of the group had keys. Point stands that vast majority of people who push keys unless *ALL* they do is push keys (as in 0 3 chest appropriate runs) and refuse to run a depleted key they know they can do (lol) and are doing 20+ currently...

Wow those qualifiers.

If you split people who push 18+ into 2 categories, those who only push keys that aren't depleted, and those who push keys even once depleted, releveling etc, there is a SIGNIFICANTLY larger amount in the first category, and those people will be helped significantly by this change.

[Socialhealer]

My favorite thing in the world is to have people that literally have not pushed a high key in their life tell me how easy it is. And how it's so obvious what needs to be done between a +23 and +25. Yep, dude you definitely know more about this than me.

my favourite thing is watching someone so far up their own asshole their butt hurts so much they just dismiss everything because they think they're that good, but they're not.

i've 2 chested +18's holding like 1.85m dps overall first try, if i spent all my time doing over 20's yeh i'd be real confident in how to do the pulls and where i need to blow offensive and defensive cooldowns.

i mean i've only cleared every tier mythic had rank 1's endless 99 percentile, but oh no +25 is on a different level because you said so right? i could go clear a +25 tonight and what for? the reward is nothing other than going on mmo-c and bragging.....oh....

[Jimson]

And the gear cap is going to be at +15 now, which if you're struggling with +10s on top of the buffs they're all receiving, you're pretty fucked.

Which buffs are these? A 10 post 7.2.5 is roughly a 12 now. http://www.wowhead.com/mythic-keystones-and-dungeons-guide

My favorite thing in the world is to have people that literally have not pushed a high key in their life tell me how easy it is. And how it's so obvious what needs to be done between a +23 and +25. Yep, dude you definitely know more about this than me.

I'm reading all your posts on the subject, but all I see is one example of "This boss may not one-shot you on +23, but he may on +25." Maybe you can explain the difference between a 23 and a 25, because mechanically they're the same and numerically it's a difference of about 50% extra health/dmg on top of the 23.

[Emancptr]

i mean i've only cleared every tier mythic had rank 1's endless 99 percentile, but oh no +25 is on a different level because you said so right? i could go clear a +25 tonight and what for? the reward is nothing other than going on mmo-c and bragging.....oh....

I would like you to go clear a +25 tonight and come back to me. Tell me how it goes. Can I have a wowprogress link to show you've done it.

Also, some people like to do challenges in their video games. You know, just for fun.

if i spent all my time doing over 20's yeh i'd be real confident in how to do the pulls and where i need to blow offensive and defensive cooldowns.

It's almost like practice makes perfect. And what we're asking for is the ability to practice dungeons without our key randomly rerolling to different shit every time we fail. :thinking:

I'm reading all your posts on the subject, but all I see is one example of "This boss may not one-shot you on +23, but he may on +25." Maybe you can explain the difference between a 23 and a 25, because mechanically they're the same and numerically it's a difference of about 50% extra health/dmg on top of the 23.

I haven't given a single example. Other people have made random statements about random bosses, while having no actual experience in high M+.

In general, boss kill times from +23 to +25 go up by about ~15-20 seconds. This can be an issue for healer mana and will alter DPS/Tank CDs. Sometimes you'll need to use that additional cooldown to push a boss before an additional phase (Medivh Upper Kara, Maiden additional Shield Phase, Rock Pillar Guy Nelth's Lair, etc.). That's before you start including bosses like Serpentrix/Hyrja/etc that turn abilities from 80% nukes to 1-shot without Prydaz.

Sometimes that additional time will mean cooldowns are up for the trash right after the boss. Do I pull bigger with CDs up, or maintain the same pull and potentially not make timer with new mob hp?

If we're on a fortified week the difference between a +23 and a +25 might mean that I can no longer do two trash packs together. Abilities like Shoot from BRH archers (that won't 1 shot on +23, but will on +25) or other caster like mobs can alter trash pulls significantly.

On top of all that the mobs have more Health, and the instance overall takes longer. So unless I beat the +23 by 4-5 minutes I will need to pull quicker on the +25 in order to make the timer.

[BiggestNoob]

I'm not getting the point here.

Let me try to explain.

If you're willing to rerun the same dungeon 5~10 times at the same level with no reward, what's the difference from running different 5~10 dungeons to upgrade the level between running the same dungeon, if you're not getting any reward anyway and only what to boost ego in Mythic+ Leaderboards?

No. It's about difficulty and completing something that's actually difficult. For groups that push 26 keys, a 23 is quite easy. A 20 is 2-3 chestable and even with significant problems (like a D/C or overpulling or dying to mechanics) can still be done in time. This lack of challenge means there's no real difference between running 20s and 10s, so in order to get to a point where literally everything you can do to improve your play matters, they have to go higher, which often means repeating a key over and over refining those improvements until they can beat the timer.

Yes, I've read already the "we need to practice" excuse, but to me looks more like you're wanting a chance to do the same thing over and over again until you are able to cheese it, what doesn't sound so much of challenge more than a patience test. Planning beforehand, knowing the dungeon for the pulls you're/you're not able to do, knowing your CDs to foresight if they will/will not be up for the next pack/boss where you will need it, and coordinating all the CDs and the times needed looks way more challenging than just doing the same thing over and over until you eliminate all those problems just because you've run it so many times that all you need to do is follow the script of what worked from previous runs.

And how do you do this planning and achieve all of this knowledge without actually doing it to determine those things? Do you know whether you can complete a marathon or in what time until you've attempted one?

The point of repeating the dungeon is to learn those things. The difference between a good player and a good player who completes a 25/26 key in time is precisely the knowledge of every single thing you could possibly know about how to optimize your play in the dungeon. If you could just acquire this knowledge out of band without doing the dungeon, there wouldn't be a need for repeating them, but there is. As with every thing in life, to improve at something you must practice at it because doing is how we experience and learn.

Have you done a +2 key? You should know that most boss mechanics and trash mechanics don't matter at all on a +2. At +10 some of them start mattering, including some that you probably didn't even notice were there. If you have the same level of knowledge regardless of the level of the key, then jumping up to a +10 would be trivial and should introduce no more problems for you. The same thing happens in high keys because you literally start hitting points where one-shots occur just to basic mechanics (not just failure) and where you could pull certain things, you must now CC or pull less, and those changes require changes in CD timings. It's a constant adjustment to change, not just a "we know every mechanic and we have this planned out, so we can just go in and easily 1-shot this key" type situation.

Which buffs are these? A 10 post 7.2.5 is roughly a 12 now. http://www.wowhead.com/mythic-keystones-and-dungeons-guide

+15 will be the gear cap, it's +280% in the next patch, a +10 is currently +100%. If they're having trouble with current 10s, they're not going to be doing 15s, even with an extra 20 ilvls, because it's not going to give them 2.8x their current output and mechanics will be killing them that aren't in 10s.

[Jimson]

Boss kill times from +23 to +25 go up by about ~15-20 seconds.

That's the most obvious effect of the boss having extra health, yeah. Anything else?

You keep editing your post and adding information. Here's your one example from the first page.

Not really. Pulls that work on a +23 might not work on the +25/26. Boss abilities that don't 1-shot you on +23 might 1-shot you on +25 (requiring prydaz/stam flask).

[Emancptr]

That's the most obvious effect of the boss having extra health, yeah. Anything else?

Posted before edit was done go actually read.

@Plastkin Good points. Another thing that hasn't been mentioned yet is just incidental bad pulls. Most raids don't clear their farm content without a single wipe. Meanwhile, the new key system is literally asking M+ players to play progression content (the highest key they can possibly do) without a single mistake on their first pull.

[Hey There Guys its Metro]

After thinking about this a bit more I understand the issue more clearly now. Frankly, the audio of the video posted is what led to such a misunderstanding. Its near inaudible on my phone, but when I listened to it with my headset I was able to understand the problem a bit more clearly.
Regardless, I don't really see why this matters.

Your epeen wowprogress score doesn't make me care any more. That system is incredibly flawed, and the fact that ANYONE uses it as a metric for success is a bit silly.
There is absolutely no reason to be doing 15 hours of progression on a dungeon you are struggling to complete. In that time, you could have done 15 other dungeons that would have given tons more reward.
That is my approach to the situation, and I am sure that is Blizzards.

I am some one who is excited for challenging dungeon content, but something like that is just not within the scope of the progression model. They don't support or incentivize players doing that sort of thing, so there is no reason to be discussing it now.

However, there is one major flaw with the current system that actually helps align my thoughts with yours. I think the keystone system as a whole is inferior. If there were a way to remove it, I would be happy about that. It would solve your problems, as well as my own with the system.
For me, I do dungeons for gear as I don't have 15 hours a day to spend wiping on something that doesn't have the commensurate character power gain to be rewarded.

This means I pug a lot of dungeons, and primarily the same few dungeons over and over in order to target specific pieces or challenges. I try to do around a 15 every week for the extra AP but its not worth it, because I could usually do two 10s in that time and get double the AP and gear chances.

But the ultimate problem I have is that I can't choose to do what I want. I am forced to do dungeons I don't want to using my own key and forced to play with people I may not enjoy playing with in order to use their key.

If they just added a system where you could choose which dungeon you wanted to do, but gave a keystone-like system to prevent people from doing 10s without having done a 2 before etc it would work perfectly. Then you would be able to chose to do 30s for the rest of your life and I would be able to chose to do 10-12 DHT all day etc.
And I wouldn't have to worry about dealing with people I didn't want to play with just because they were the key holder!

So my thoughts on the matter align with your solution, but once again the approach you are taking is just not something anyone should care about.
Its effectively like people complaining they can't solo mythic raids because the bosses have mechanics that can't be done alone. Blizzard doesn't intend or support you doing that, so if you were able to do it at all, more power to you.

The whole "choose whether we get depleted" or not seems logical, but I doubt its that simple.

For people doing the system the way its meant to be done, this change is absolutely brilliant. The system is NOT mythic raiding, and it seems you are trying to emulate it.
I'm not sure what else to say other than I am sorry its going to affect you, but to me doing dungeons has always been about doing ALL of them. This is why I loved CMs. I enjoyed learning how to do all of them well enough to carry others in and complete the set fast in.
I think these changes will align better with that mentality and ultimately you will adapt and enjoy it too.

Anyway, this is WAY too late of a protest, and way too backwards. If you wanted to raise this, it should have been done months ago on the official forums.
Best of luck, but hopefully you realize why the system is better off this way, may not be as easily changed as you think as to accommodate a few dozen groups, and why doing a single dungeon for dozens of hours is not intended gameplay within this system.

I'm glad I took another look at the conversation though. I misunderstood the topic originally, so my fault there.

[Jimson]

Posted before edit was done go actually read.

I read it all. Essentially what you're doing is removing the challenge from the timer by studying it until you've memorized every movement and have a premeditated counter for it. This should be more fun, then, because it forces you to adjust and adapt, rather than following a checklist and going through rote steps.