Are classes being tuned and changed way too much?

[Gadzooks]

Back in the day (as recent as MOP tbh) I could always pick a class for the X.0 patch and be happy with that decision of the rest of the expansion until they made major changes for the next expansion.

Today I can't really be sure if my pick is going to last until the next patch until changes make me have to reconsider, I personally find it exhausting and demotivating not feeling like "this is my main and I'm gonna work on it for the next 2 years".

Should classes and specs be tampered with less over the course of an expansion?

The class team, under Celestalon, bit off way more than they could handle with the revamp of all classes for Legion, and they're still finishing the work, and tweaking and adjusting constantly. They may reach a semi-stable spot right around the last patch - and then it all gets changed again for the next expansion.

Hey, it's job security.

It's instability for the players - it's a weird non-content that will keep people busy reworking their gear and such, but it's instability just the same. I'd hate to be running a raid team with the amount of changes that keep happening. But that's me, I always dreaded the start of an expansion, when they redid a class - I stopped playing my Moonkin druid because of how often they changed it. Just got tired of it all. But my rogue was always the same, I could blast out leveling as combat, and then go assassin or subtlety at level cap. Now....outlaw? Ugh. No thanks.

My favorite alts were always Rogue/Shadow Priest/Moonkin/Fire mage. I wouldn't have been very happy if I'd bought Legion, it looks like.

[ComputerNerd]

ComputerNerd, you need to sit down and think about what you just said. Everyone on any MMO forum knows that class design and balance is easy, and people who think it isn't are just being intentionally obtuse. If Blizzard wasn't so incompetent they would be able to balance classes so that they're equal on every encounter, but Ghostcrawler keeps making Mages OP.

Perhaps follow your own advice.
Why aren't you armchair experts who can always do things so much better not actually doing that.
Someone has already failed if they insist on an "everyone knows" argument, which by its nature would mean you didn't need to make the argument in the first place, since there would have been nobody to disagree with.
If you have to tell me or someone else there is an "everybody", or "everyone", then there isn't.
That is completely avoiding an argument, simply saying it is true because you say so.

[Echocho]

Just to be clear, we're not talking about tuning here. Tuning is normal and necessary. Changing talents, abilities, rotations and to some extent stat weights is what is being discussed. Sorry if that wasn't clear from my original post.

[Uselessrouge]

yes i dont think they should completly redo the gamplay of a class in an addon... at the end of one to remake a spec why not.. but like this? no thanks

[tankbug]

It does matter, people who get bored are much more likely to just try an alt or at least come back after taking a break, people who quit because the company pissed them off are far less likely to come back and give them money later, or buy any other games they make.

I just don't believe that some people are having such a religious connection to a spec, that if Blizzard mutilates it, they rage-quit the game and hold a grudge against Blizzard forever. I think people who still care about the game will come back after a break.

[Spiral Mage]

Pretty much, they did a massive class overhaul .. the feedback was heavily negative.
They said: Oh well, we don't care. We're not going to listen ..
-- went live with it -- and have been trying to make up for that mistake ever since.

They don't want to revert everything back to WOD but they know alot of people are very unhappy.
So they're trying hard to fix the classes to make them atleast playable, with how badly many of them are screwed up.
Some are in good shape, better than ever even -- but most are in terrible spots.

If only they didn't seem to love ignoring the beta so much.
Beta invites were really just a chance to see the trainwreck before anyone else.
There was nothing we could do to deter them from their course of action.
I remember seeing alot of the streamers going "Oh god, what is this shit?"
"What happened to my favorite class?"
"This could be good if --"
But nothing that got said was heard, at all.

It shows in the fact that for the first time, rapid, sweeping changes are being made.
Almost on a patch by patch basis, attempting to fix their mistakes.
Should have just listened in the beginning ..... like always.

[Deleted]

balance tweaks/tuning? yeah lots of that please esp just before a new tier.

gameplay changes? only in big patches plz.

expansion level gameplay changes mid expansion? they have worked out for my personally but honestly i can see how it pisses a lot of people off too.

[procne]

I think it's generally prevalent in this expansion, with everything. Blizzard just can't properly design, balance and predict anything so they keep applying those band aids all the time.

"oh, we didn't think player power would scale that much, so we'll make mobs scale with players"
"oh, this class is too strong AGAIN, so we'll tone it down, third time in this expansion"
"oh, the legendaries didn't work as we thought, even though everyone told us. We'll have to rebalance them every patch"
"oh, we didn't properly predict how the AP and AK would affect new chars or alts, so we keep tuning those like 2 times every patch"

By the time they manage to get things properly balanced the expansion will end and they will they will start from scratch with new class changes and game mechanics for the new expansion. It's getting annoying...

[Niwes]

maybe thats what happens when a company let their customers play and test the companies beta software since 11/2016.

[Magical Mudcrab]

Perhaps follow your own advice.
Why aren't you armchair experts who can always do things so much better not actually doing that.
Someone has already failed if they insist on an "everyone knows" argument, which by its nature would mean you didn't need to make the argument in the first place, since there would have been nobody to disagree with.
If you have to tell me or someone else there is an "everybody", or "everyone", then there isn't.
That is completely avoiding an argument, simply saying it is true because you say so.

Psyduck?

[Schattenlied]

I just don't believe that some people are having such a religious connection to a spec, that if Blizzard mutilates it, they rage-quit the game and hold a grudge against Blizzard forever. I think people who still care about the game will come back after a break.

Religious connection? I wouldn't call it that. Blizard took something they liked and destroyed it, maybe it was the only spec they even liked at the time. They feel alienated by the developers.

I never said forever, I believe they will come back when "sweeping changes" are made again that turn their spec back into something they don't hate, which wouldn't be necessary if they never changed it to begin with, and those same sweeping changes will change other classes, and some other players will then quit for the same reasons.


Also, as Aggrophobic said, Blizzard have said themselves that one of the issues that make people leave is that their classes change too much. They have the metrics from the cancel subscription survey and people filling in something along the lines of "you butchered my class".

- - - Updated - - -

Pretty much, they did a massive class overhaul .. the feedback was heavily negative.
They said: Oh well, we don't care. We're not going to listen ..
-- went live with it -- and have been trying to make up for that mistake ever since.

They don't want to revert everything back to WOD but they know alot of people are very unhappy.
So they're trying hard to fix the classes to make them atleast playable, with how badly many of them are screwed up.
Some are in good shape, better than ever even -- but most are in terrible spots.

If only they didn't seem to love ignoring the beta so much.
Beta invites were really just a chance to see the trainwreck before anyone else.
There was nothing we could do to deter them from their course of action.
I remember seeing alot of the streamers going "Oh god, what is this shit?"
"What happened to my favorite class?"
"This could be good if --"
But nothing that got said was heard, at all.

It shows in the fact that for the first time, rapid, sweeping changes are being made.
Almost on a patch by patch basis, attempting to fix their mistakes.
Should have just listened in the beginning ..... like always.

This is the major issue right here... We told them all throughout alpha and beta that this shit was out of whack and they fucking ignored us... Was it out of pride? Their egos too big to admit their designs were a failure? Who knows, but one thing is for certain, they need to stop ignoring alpha and beta feedback... When they do a sweeping redesign of a spec (if ever) they should be relying heavily on feedback from the people currently playing it to ensure that it's being turned into something that they still enjoy.

[JabJack]

So much hostility in this thread.
It's human nature to learn and cope with change. No one enjoy's it, but we know it's bound to happen.
Not everyone is going to be satisfied obviously, but some people suck.
In reality, this game has been evolving since day one. Game dev's change, player base changes, and intentions change.
If you're truly upset to a point of wasting the effort to post on the forums; consider typing up aspects that bother your preference. With that information formulate a coherent thought, and display the change you've considers to the Community.
Shiite that bothers you, might bother others. When you know that you have a following of the player base that backs your idea. Pitch the idea to the dev's and have a conversation. Then that inevitable change that's going to happen might go in your favor.
If you do not take the time and effort to make a difference; communicating with thought, and expressing legitimate concerns. Honestly, you don't deserve the right to complain.
I'd say legion is comparable to cataclysm in terms of enjoy, and amount of change. I enjoy it and will continue to play regardless!