Frost DK Bottom Tier for ToS?

[Akusa202]

Very wrong actually. Mirror Ball is one of the must useful things I've seen in a raid. It doesn't affect everybody in the raid, but being able to remove harmful effects that are otherwise not dispellable is very valuable on fights where actions are limited or healing is stressed. Removing the Armageddon rain debuff in order to soak more rains or just to free up one person's damage is very valuable for progression. Same goes with Goroth on mythic. The crashing comet debuff does a lot of damage per tick and I've been in situations where AMS' dispel effect saved my life and probably the life of somebody else since healers are now able to completely focus on somebody else's debuff instead of splitting healing trying to save two people who both end up dying.
We also have higher burst AoE potential than Unholy does and better clutch self healing. I believe we also have more CC options with stuns and the like, as well as options for better defensive talents. Our AMS talent is superior to Unholy's and we have a passive option in Permafrost that unholy doesn't have.

To say we do nothing better than unholy is ignorant to what Frost does have.

No one is going to bring a frost dk that does less damage just because it can potentially dispell random debuffs, heal itself to full once, or because it can aoe stun 5 seconds later than when it was needed when there are plenty of classes with on demand and reliable aoe stuns.

[Hctaz]

No one is going to bring a frost dk that does less damage just because it can potentially dispell random debuffs, heal itself to full once, or because it can aoe stun 5 seconds later than when it was needed when there are plenty of classes with on demand and reliable aoe stuns.

I mean less damage than what though? A lot of guilds have dks from last tier when Frost was amazing. I personally know of situations where we've wanted dks to be frost over unholy for certain fights. Mainly just Sisters mythic but... even still that's something. If you mean nobody wants a dk over an arms warrior or rogue then I guess you're right in a vacuum but even that has its own problems. Trading all your dks for warriors leaves you lacking a bunch of vanquisher that your guild might have been balanced around and going rogue leaves out a lot of plate gear that your guild might have been balanced around as well, not to mention plenty of guilds already have multiple warriors and rogues in it already.

[Deleted]

I mean less damage than what though? A lot of guilds have dks from last tier when Frost was amazing. I personally know of situations where we've wanted dks to be frost over unholy for certain fights. Mainly just Sisters mythic but... even still that's something. If you mean nobody wants a dk over an arms warrior or rogue then I guess you're right in a vacuum but even that has its own problems. Trading all your dks for warriors leaves you lacking a bunch of vanquisher that your guild might have been balanced around and going rogue leaves out a lot of plate gear that your guild might have been balanced around as well, not to mention plenty of guilds already have multiple warriors and rogues in it already.

Problem is more like getting good arms warrs and sub rogues. We are the 2nd best german 2days raid and have 0 arms and 0 subrogues. It isnt like it is easy to get top players with the right spec.

Why pick a bad arms over a good fury warrior or frost dk?

[Deleted]

don't see all the fuss is about.

Frost is in a great place at the moment, whether you use BoS or Machine gun. sitting comfortably just above middle.

[Icedcoffeee]

don't see all the fuss is about.

Frost is in a great place at the moment, whether you use BoS or Machine gun. sitting comfortably just above middle.

Not sure where you're getting this. At 90th percentile (and most other percentiles) on Warcraft logs we are bottom spec for both Heroic and Mythic Tomb. Unholy is the "comfortably above the middle" spec right now.

[Nemesquish]

don't see all the fuss is about.

Frost is in a great place at the moment, whether you use BoS or Machine gun. sitting comfortably just above middle.

Uh? what?...

[Raiz]

Why not just say 4:1.....

That's your way of saying odds I think. I had a very hard time transitionning to odds from percentages when playing odds games. I think here in Europe, the only ppl who say those kinds of odds are from betting sports. Everywhere else, we like it better when we can reach a 100% number.

[Deleted]

Very wrong actually. Mirror Ball is one of the must useful things I've seen in a raid. It doesn't affect everybody in the raid, but being able to remove harmful effects that are otherwise not dispellable is very valuable on fights where actions are limited or healing is stressed. Removing the Armageddon rain debuff in order to soak more rains or just to free up one person's damage is very valuable for progression. Same goes with Goroth on mythic. The crashing comet debuff does a lot of damage per tick and I've been in situations where AMS' dispel effect saved my life and probably the life of somebody else since healers are now able to completely focus on somebody else's debuff instead of splitting healing trying to save two people who both end up dying.
We also have higher burst AoE potential than Unholy does and better clutch self healing. I believe we also have more CC options with stuns and the like, as well as options for better defensive talents. Our AMS talent is superior to Unholy's and we have a passive option in Permafrost that unholy doesn't have.

To say we do nothing better than unholy is ignorant to what Frost does have.

You know that UH can also get rid of KJ armageddon debuff and Crashing comets debuff? You just need to pre-ams it instead of using ams after.
I agree that mirror ball is super useful in some situation, but the examples you gave are actually bad.

edit: and also it is super debatable when you say frost AMS talent is better than UH one. Having a 10 seconds Ams can be immensely valuable in some situation (on top of my head: soaking spores on botanist, going through the rings on Elisande being safer etc..)

[RuneDK]

don't see all the fuss is about.

Frost is in a great place at the moment, whether you use BoS or Machine gun. sitting comfortably just above middle.

Lolwut? In what world?

[Hctaz]

Uh? what?...

Yeah uh what lol. Maybe he saw Unholy dk's parse placements and just assumed it was frost still.

- - - Updated - - -

You know that UH can also get rid of KJ armageddon debuff and Crashing comets debuff? You just need to pre-ams it instead of using ams after.
I agree that mirror ball is super useful in some situation, but the examples you gave are actually bad.

edit: and also it is super debatable when you say frost AMS talent is better than UH one. Having a 10 seconds Ams can be immensely valuable in some situation (on top of my head: soaking spores on botanist, going through the rings on Elisande being safer etc..)

No they aren't bad. The point of the example was that you can choose whether or not to remove the debuffs in those situations. You might not need to, in which case you could save AMS for a later point. As unholy, you cannot choose to do so later. You have to use your AMS then and now and you might die later on when you potentially needed AMS within the next minute. It can happen with frost as well, but the difference is that you have to predict as unholy whether or not your healers are going to keep you alive through your debuffs before they even get applied to you versus frost who can wait it out and go "Oh shit I gotta AMS this thing off or I'm dead right the fuck now" or save their AMS for later.

[pies1]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/ranking...ght&spec=Frost

100% log for FDK is 1.2m

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/ranking...age&spec=Frost

100% log is 1.42m for frost mage

Both are 100% logs yet frost mage does 200k more dps.

[RuneDK]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/ranking...ght&spec=Frost

100% log for FDK is 1.2m

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/ranking...age&spec=Frost

100% log is 1.42m for frost mage

Both are 100% logs yet frost mage does 200k more dps.

The Frost DK is low 1.1m...I get you're rounding...but you rounded to the wrong end....so closer to 300k difference....It's actually almost exactly 300k difference to be exact.....However I don't know what your point is...we know frost is low...and you're comparing us to a mage....Compare us to an unholy dk...because that's who we're competing with for a raid position....They're at 1.28m....so it's a 160k difference.

[Deleted]

The Frost DK is low 1.1m...I get you're rounding...but you rounded to the wrong end....so closer to 300k difference....It's actually almost exactly 300k difference to be exact.....However I don't know what your point is...we know frost is low...and you're comparing us to a mage....Compare us to an unholy dk...because that's who we're competing with for a raid position....They're at 1.28m....so it's a 160k difference.

They both deal frost damage though...

[Deleted]

You know that UH can also get rid of KJ armageddon debuff and Crashing comets debuff? You just need to pre-ams it instead of using ams after.
I agree that mirror ball is super useful in some situation, but the examples you gave are actually bad.

edit: and also it is super debatable when you say frost AMS talent is better than UH one. Having a 10 seconds Ams can be immensely valuable in some situation (on top of my head: soaking spores on botanist, going through the rings on Elisande being safer etc..)

Not that it matters anymore, but Elisande is a very bad example. Frost AMS makes you immune to ring damage, you could walk through them for 5 seconds and Smash the boss (you dont get the ring debuff). UH Ams is not able to do that and 10 second AMS doesnt help here. UH ams is instantly removed because the rings hit so hard.

After finally looting Cold Heart i changed lootspec to UH. My Frost Weapon is 26 ilvl (+ poor UH traits) and 7 traits higher than my UH weapon (59 vs 52 traits) still my Frost sepc *only* sims 10k dps higher. And i dont even have the UH shoulders yet.

As soon as i get the shoulders and some new UH relics i will try UH.

[RuneDK]

They both deal frost damage though...

At first I thought this was a serious answer.....then I realized it's sarcasm....you scared me lol

[Deleted]

just got 5/9 mythic ToS. top 3 DPS of logs for all fights

will edit post and link logs in a moment.

I am an exceptional player so i understand if skill required to play Frost DK is being mistaken for undertuned by the majority.

[Deleted]

just got 5/9 mythic ToS. top 3 DPS of logs for all fights

will edit post and link logs in a moment.

I am an exceptional player so i understand if skill required to play Frost DK is being mistaken for undertuned by the majority.

If a Frost DK ist top 3 dps for all boses the Frost DK just performs better than the rest of the raid. A single raid isnt representative at all. As "an exceptional Player" you should know this.

[Deleted]

If a Frost DK ist top 3 dps for all boses the Frost DK just performs better than the rest of the raid. A single raid isnt representative at all. As "an exceptional Player" you should know this.

It has become really easy to get a 99%ile log as frost DK. So i assume it is a skill issue where the average skill of frost DKs is lower. Thats why pure %ile comoarison wont work.
I mean, i could change from 99%ile frost to 90%ile unholy just because unholy DKs are better geared and higher skill level atm.

[Deleted]

It has become really easy to get a 99%ile log as frost DK. So i assume it is a skill issue where the average skill of frost DKs is lower. Thats why pure %ile comoarison wont work.
I mean, i could change from 99%ile frost to 90%ile unholy just because unholy DKs are better geared and higher skill level atm.

I assumed he was talking about top 3 DPS in actual numbers not percentiles^^

Also without knowing the Setup the Statement is pretty useless. In our raid we have a ret Paladin who is #1 dps in most fights. but not because ret is great right now but because he just a better Player than a lof of other dps.

[Deleted]

Not that it matters anymore, but Elisande is a very bad example. Frost AMS makes you immune to ring damage, you could walk through them for 5 seconds and Smash the boss (you dont get the ring debuff). UH Ams is not able to do that and 10 second AMS doesnt help here. UH ams is instantly removed because the rings hit so hard.

After finally looting Cold Heart i changed lootspec to UH. My Frost Weapon is 26 ilvl (+ poor UH traits) and 7 traits higher than my UH weapon (59 vs 52 traits) still my Frost sepc *only* sims 10k dps higher. And i dont even have the UH shoulders yet.

As soon as i get the shoulders and some new UH relics i will try UH.

Except that UH can go through rings too... I progressed Elisande as unholy and it works super fine. Even better than frost actually, because the AMS last 10sec, allowing UH to stay in the rings much longer and safer.
The rings damage is irrelevant, you are immune to them if you have AMS up regardless of the size of your AMS shield (you could go through rings with an AMS shielding you for only 10k damage). The only problem with having a small AMS is if it gets removed by other sources of damage (there is a lot of passive damage on Elisande).

The way Blizard coded the rings is strange, because it should not be like this. But hey that's how it works.