Is 110 too high a level for new players?

[Jijek]

There should probably be a level squish or something. The time isn't that long but the psychological factor of 110 levels is bad.

[Mythabay]

Recently i've tried getting both my girlfriend, and 2 other IRL friends, all of which are into games, to start WoW. Only my GF made it to level 110. All 3 however were incredibly put off by the idea of levelling through 110 levels. Now, as a regular player, we know it doesnt take that long. But when someone hears "Yeah, so, to get to the main chunk of the game you gotta level up 110 times before you can start to do the same content as everyone else" the general reply is to complain about how ridiculous that is. Its got me thinking of how many potential new players WoW is losing simply from the idea that levelling so much is gonna take an incredible amount of effort and time. Im not saying WoW is doomed, based on experiences in game, it feels pretty healthy and highly populated, but is it time blizzard decided to do a level squish of sorts? I'm not even personally sure how they would do this, but surely it would make the game more attractive to potential new players?

Technically, they level up 109 times but no, it just depends on what kind of player you are. I you are a free player or lore lover, it doesn't matter because they are just taking in the scenery and don't care about end-game content. But if they are a hardcore player, then they want to get there straight away... And that not good idea, because they miss out on good gear. New players are also at the disadvantage of having no BOA.

[Zantos]

TL;DC. No, when you purchase Legion you get a lv100 boost, anything after is extra so the fact you're basically being handed a toon at near max level, that's the opposite of "too high" that's very friendly to new players.

If only it actually did any good. Its useless.

[Serissa]

Seriously people don't compare it to vanilla. The question is not how fast it is or how slow it was. The question is "is it interesting?" and "does it make this game appealing for new player?". IMO answers for both questions is "NO!". Leveling is tedious and boring (especially at low levels). It teaches them nothing. Nor gameplay/class nor world story.

[MORGATH99]

its just a number player level stopped matter long time ago

[Deleted]

The problem isn't the 110 levels, it's that the journey there is so bland and boring. Compare it to ESO or FFXIV for example which takes a lot longer to reach max lvl by using conventional means it doesn't matter because it's a pleasant and meaningful experience where everything feels organic. WoW leveling is piss easy, it doesn't offer much in terms of character development and even if it did it wouldn't matter because of it being piss easy and the whole experience is extremely disjointed and you'll outlevel any zone you start before you're half way through, except for the new ones, but by that time you've probably quit the game already.

did you seriously call FF14 leveling good?

Yeah sorry but having to do 20 minute cutscenes -> 15 minute travel -> kill TWO bears for their ass flaps -> 15 minute travel -> 20 minute cutscene for a measly 10% experience simply won't do.

And the fact that RAIDING and breaking the level cap requires a 60 hour ++ linear quest chain(ie you can only level this way) just makes things completely fucking retarded, I'm not playing an MMO to stare at shit graphics shit story cutscenes for 90% of the time. FF14 is pure trash living only through the brand name, it was actually better before the realm reborn change.

[Detan]

did you seriously call FF14 leveling good?

Yeah sorry but having to do 20 minute cutscenes -> 15 minute travel -> kill TWO bears for their ass flaps -> 15 minute travel -> 20 minute cutscene for a measly 10% experience simply won't do.

And the fact that RAIDING and breaking the level cap requires a 60 hour ++ linear quest chain(ie you can only level this way) just makes things completely fucking retarded, I'm not playing an MMO to stare at shit graphics shit story cutscenes for 90% of the time. FF14 is pure trash living only through the brand name, it was actually better before the realm reborn change.

The sandwich-social-frogs screamed as the computers massaged the mango-monkeys frazzling in their glue socks.

[Kynario]

I don't think the level cap is too high at all, it takes a week or two for someone brand new to reach 110.

I do think having a huge majority of that leveling process consumed by old and irrelevant content is a detriment to someone new to MMOs trying to understand exactly what's going on and what they should be focusing on. "You can basically ignore everything that happens from 1 to 100, none of it matters; Legion is where the REAL game begins." This isn't a thought process that's carried forth in a lot of other titles I don't think. Someone who "plays games" might think that a game with a ton of expansions and years of content means that there's tons to do just like a game on sale on Steam that has 15 DLCs, like Shadow of Mordor or something like that, but may be confused to know that almost ALL of that past expansion content is bypassed when leveling and completely irrelevant to their progression. "What did I buy this Cataclysm expansion for if we're just going to run 5 dungeons from it for a few hours? Can't I just skip it if I'm not going to play it?" Also, Imagine jumping from your shiny PS4 titles to Westfall or Barrens. The leveling experience looks like shit. What a turn-off. "You're telling me I have to play in these terrible looking zones for how many levels until I can get to something that looks like it was released a few years ago? Why? It gets worse the closer to 60 I get? What??? Why can't I skip all of this, why do I have to pay an extra $60 just to play the modern version of this game? How come they didn't just release a WoW 2 without the old stuff?"

What older players understand about this archaic MMO, newer players scratch their heads at. If there's going to continue to be newer players, content that is by-and-large irrelevant to them should be bypassed. Blizz knows this too, since they offer boosts to pre-max level.

I still think something more than "join a guild bro" should be done to help someone new to the game understand that most of what they're buying is access to transmog runs and XP-less questing, since they're rushing to current content anyway. If they love the exploration and lore and want to run a ton of that stuff solo and understand that they're purchasing access to content that's no longer relevant to character progression, they're not going to be bewildered by the existence of old content expansion packs to begin with.

Here's a question to answer your question; What kind of new players do you want to see? Players that have no fundamental bearing on MMO systems and playstyles? If so, you're going to see a lot of old WoW dumbed down and cast out, as it only serves to confound that swath of players. Talents and class mechanics will be simplified, leveling will become trivial, there will be easier access to that meaningful content and the rewards it provides, stuff like that.

Sound familiar to you?

I'd say that a lot of WoW's recent change has been directly because of that. Contouring the game to be much more receptive to "My bud plays that Warcraft game and so do I now I guess" and "I used to sell MC runs but now I have kids and can only run LFR".

I say it in every thread about stuff like this; The game is changing. That's not a bad thing, just a new thing, and that new thing might not be for you.

Amazing post!! Very well said. I couldn't agree more.

[RadmaKanow]

"Yeah, so, to get to the main chunk of the game you gotta level up 110 times before you can start to do the same content as everyone else"

As leveling towards the max level, seeing the zones, learning your class, following the story wasn't "the same content". Back in the time I started my WoW adventure it was all about leveling, exploring the next zone, following the story. Raiding was a way to spend time after you reached max level, not a goal itself. I truly miss old talent trees (as spoiled with cookie cutter specs), receiving a talent point every level gained, the need of visiting skill trainer each time you dinged and purchasing skill ranks. It felt good. True, it disturbed leveling process, made you travel to the trainer and back, was PITA at times. But seeing XP bar approaching right side felt special. You knew it's breaking point. New talent to spend, new skill to learn, new rank to gain to make existing spells and abilities more powerful.

Now? We could have our levels reduced to how many? Eight? Because everything in between is meaningless. You are lvl 48 and dinged 49? Apart from visual 0.5 s effect and 4 yellow lines in chat nothing changed. It feels exactly the same as at lvl 46 and 47. You may have "learned" new spell or something but the overall feeling how it was in the past is long gone and dead.

And it is a result of Blizzard changing and simplifying leveling process. To make way to 110 as short as possible. 110 nowadays is merely a number and I feel sad for people who see it and pass on WoW purely on imaginary feeling that doing those 110 levels would take sooo much time. Game is easy today, was easy at Cata. It took me about 6 months to get my main to 70 during BC. During Cata guildie did Warrior 1-80 within a week. I stuck around lvl 60 by then. All who say doing 110 levels is too much before they can play the game are a bunch of instant gratification expecting whiners.

[Paula Deen]

They're probably more turned off by the outdated levelling zones.

WoW is miles behind other MMO's when it comes to levelling, they need to keep revamping every few years to keep things fresh.

Honestly this.

Playing ESO recently and just seeing all of the content to do. It isn't like WoW either. I stay in a zone till I feel like leaving and going somewhere else. That combined with all the other small things, like stealing, just make ESO a much better leveling MMO. They could learn a thing or two from ESO honestly.

[Deleted]

so, to get to the main chunk of the game you gotta level up 110 times before you can start to do the same content as everyone else" the general reply is to complain about how ridiculous that is

If they think that is off putting they are just not into MMO's... and how is that redicilous? Every MMO works like that, and it's just a number.

In a different MMO where 60 might be max might still take longer to reach than 110 in WoW.

[vertigo12]

I'll castrate myself if those two players didn't enjoy appreciate and even love the scenery if not the music or even the gameplay because I know someone who is new to online gaming and is new would fall inlove with poker games, farmville type or Clash Clans and even MoBA but WoW?! Tell them they wasted their hard earned dollars for nothing if they haven't appreciated even a single bit of game element from WoW.

Better give their accounts to those pesky gold farmers and sellers instead.

[KSM899]

I think it's time squish the levels.
Vanilla used to be up to 60, it can be reduced to 40, BC to 45, Wrath to 60, cata to 65, mop to 70, wod to 75, legion to 80.

Or they can do another leveling part, like all pre legion is A110, post legion can start from B1 and so on.

[vertigo12]

Technically, they level up 109 times but no, it just depends on what kind of player you are. I you are a free player or lore lover, it doesn't matter because they are just taking in the scenery and don't care about end-game content. But if they are a hardcore player, then they want to get there straight away... And that not good idea, because they miss out on good gear. New players are also at the disadvantage of having no BOA.

There is a reason why he brought the other three to this game. First is motivate them about the things he loves about WoW that the other three might appreciate. Next is her gf, she now has an advantage from the other two not unless she is selfish enough not to coach them or boost them and help them level up much smoother and easier

It will be hard to level up from 1-110 if you do it alone and see everything in a negative way and forget to enjoy the experience. WoW is no different from real life. If you find your job IRL unrewarding maybe its time to give yourself a break, if you find your place too suffocating why not travel and get refreshwd with the new people you meet and the scenery/ambience. If you feel lonely why not look for like minded people or meet up new ones. WoW aint no different.

[Deleted]

So 2/3 of your RAF's were too lazy to level just 100-110 after using the free boost? Then the game isn't for them.

Yeah, describing something badly done as "not for them" is always the perfect business model. By the sound of it, you made a couple very successful MMOs yourself.

Leveling is one of the best parts of the game, especially for new comers. They get to freshly explore the stories and world. If you tarnished that first image by telling them the game only starts at max, then you sold the game quite poorly.

Maybe. For people used to playing games where a ding has a meaning and needs some effoft, 110 levels should sound discouraging.

Curious as to what MMOs you think have leveling that are miles better than WoW? I can't actually think of any, and I'd actually be interested in checking one out if you were actually being serious. Every single MMO seems to have the exact same issue.

GW2 has much better levelling, although I suspect it might actually be longer - it's not just an obstacle to have out of the way though and the game makes sure you notice your progress. TOR has levelling via class stories, which means every time you start a new class, you have a whole major new plotline to explore. IIRC it also dopted GW2-style scaling, so there's no problem if you take extra exploration quests and level up "too fast".

[Strawberry]

It took longer to get from 1-60 in Vanilla than it takes from 1-110 in Legion, and I'm not talking paid character boost.

[Valrysha]

Being thrown straight to 100 in a new game, is overwhelming. You're already working on just getting an overview of the base game, but everything happens at once and you're a spec that you don't know how works, in a class that you've never tried before, in a game you just started. The whole point of leveling is to get accustomed to your new characters slowly while learning the game.

But 110 seems like a lot of leveling for new people, 110 is a lot of levels. Level boosts, raf boosts etc are band aid fixes to that problem, but they've never been more than band aid fixes.

You can and are pushed to do a class trial when you do a 100 boost. Which teaches you the basics of the class/spec.

[Super Kami Dende]

I dunno, To me WoW feels like it has the easier path to max level of all MMO's I've played. Got a new character to 110 without Looms with a new friend pretty easily and fast at the start of Legion.

Compared to say FF14, that whilst I enjoy took a hell of a longer even getting to the latest Expansion, let alone the max level without needing to do nearly 400 quests to do so.

[Deleted]

As people pointed out already several times, the whole leveling process has aged like milk. There are several issues from the top of my head:

- There is no challenge at all until level 90, only boring grind
- Players outlevel the zones far before the quest line and story have been finished, this is even worse with heirlooms
- The storytelling is ridiculous to say the least, you randomly go back in time at level 60 but you are not even told about it and then at level 80 you come back to the present, and then there's the WoD timeline that I won't even get into
- The old zones have gotten very outdated graphically. The zones that were revamped in Cataclysm need another graphical revamp. The zones that got very little graphical improvements in Cataclysm (Silithus, Mulgore, Feralas, Redridge....actually I could list 30 zones here) look atrocious by today's standards. This, if anything, puts new players off
- Dungeons are highly unenjoyable zergfests. No need to make them long and frustrating like in Vanilla, but there should be some challenges and people should need to communicate a bit

I'm dying to see a complete leveling revamp:

- Make the leveling process from 1 to 100 slightly faster than it is now, but make it gradually challenging so that it is actually possible to die. Make it so, that for example Mulgore is for levels 1-15, then you can choose either Northern Barrens, Ashenvale, Stonetalon or Azshara for levels 15-25, then Desolace, Feralas, Dustwallow or Southern Barrens for 25-35, etc. So less zones, more diffuclt, and more choices. Possibly some quests that take you to another zone to spice things up (these need good rewards though). Then we could have Outland or Northrend for 60 - 80, and Cata or Pandaria for 80-90. Again, more choices
- Dungeons need to be made harder, quite simply. Heirlooms also need to be toned down. They can give you an xp boost, but they should not give you stat boosts.
- Outland and Northrend need to go into Caverns of Time. Another option is to revamp them completely so that they fit into the current story. I guess the best solution would be to update the whole game and every quest so that some NPCs don't live in the past anymore
- If new characters can't start at the level where the current expansion begins, then the old expansions need to be graphically updated. It's torture to look at anything that was made before Mists of Pandaria

[Joeydivision82]

New players get a free 100 and in top of that, you get a DH to level from 98. In addition to that you can start a DK at 55, so it's not really that big of a deal.