ToS already suffering from same problems as NH

[Tech614]

Yes, but the problem is getting to 940 or more from there to make the bosses easier. That sort of thing used to work much differently in the past, where after some weeks of farm you were able to outgear bosses

You still outgear bosses. Look at your logs from week to week and look as you literally shave minutes off a boss fight over the course of a month.

Placebo effect is a hell of a drug, give people titanforge and all of a sudden they think Blizzard is balancing around 940 ilvl. They're not.

[BiggestNoob]

You still outgear bosses. Look at your logs from week to week and look as you literally shave minutes off a boss fight over the course of a month.

Placebo effect is a hell of a drug, give people titanforge and all of a sudden they think Blizzard is balancing around 940 ilvl. They're not.

Except they do balance around TF because guilds doing split runs have a lot of TF heroic gear going into mythic (and do split runs again the 2nd week for this reason). They didn't in EN and it was cleared in 1 day. They did in the other instances. They've already said their goal is about 1-2 weeks of progression for the top end guilds, which is only realistically doable by taking their gearing methods into account when balancing.

The reason people tend to kill things faster in NH and ToS outside of buff patches like the weapons or class buffs is that they get better at doing them or drop a healer, not because they get much stronger. Just look at the kill times on Sassz'ine and Avatar, nobody is nor will be speed killing those bosses until major changes happen.

[kamuimac]

Yes, but the problem is getting to 940 or more from there to make the bosses easier. That sort of thing used to work much differently in the past, where after some weeks of farm you were able to outgear bosses

and this time around blizzard took different appoach - nerf will come in in form of netherlight crucible and ap - once you unlock all additional relic bonuses you will be easily 10-15 % stronger - and this will act like nerf to content

[Deleted]

Quite ridiculous that Fallen Avatar and Mistress drop 930 gear when they clearly! require higher.
Did not think they would repeat the same mistake in ToS.

But well, gearing is a complete joke this expansion. 7.3 will make it even more absurd with the Crucible.

[Illana]

It's not a raid problem

it's titanforging.

Makes it stupidly hard to balance and just overall an awful idea

[Deleted]

Quite ridiculous that Fallen Avatar and Mistress drop 930 gear when they clearly! require higher.
Did not think they would repeat the same mistake in ToS.

But well, gearing is a complete joke this expansion. 7.3 will make it even more absurd with the Crucible.

SMH at people thinking that because they have 930 average ilevel all their gear are 930... Remember guys that UNLIKE previous expansions you have two 970 legendaries plus the artifact weapon. Which inflates your ilevel by A LOT. So yeah, people with 930 ilevel actually are not full mythic gear. I have 936 ilevel and progressing on M Avatar and yeah even if the boss only drop 930 ilevel, there is a lot of gear pieces that i could use. Even if they Don't titanforged.

So tired of people saying "muh muh look i'm 930 ilevel and the boss only drop 930 item, blizzard sucks"

[vsb]

I agree, this is a real problem. I'm feeling lack of gear upgrades, so far I only looted token pieces because of set bonuses. It's getting bored and we are wiping on Avatar each week, even if we downed it for the first time pretty quick: enrage timers are unforgiving. Also we have 100 wipes on KJ hc so far and we're barely making a progress, despite the fact that we already cleared ToS hc 4 times and should be much stronger at this point.

[Bloodmagix]

Gear has nothing to do with farm...it's the fact you should all know the fight and do jobs on point so it dies quickly.

[Deleted]

I agree, this is a real problem. I'm feeling lack of gear upgrades, so far I only looted token pieces because of set bonuses. It's getting bored and we are wiping on Avatar each week, even if we downed it for the first time pretty quick: enrage timers are unforgiving. Also we have 100 wipes on KJ hc so far and we're barely making a progress, despite the fact that we already cleared ToS hc 4 times and should be much stronger at this point.

Well here the problem is your raid group not blizzard. It's been 2 months since ToS HC is out, of course after a while of doing HC you will not have upgrade anymore or only small one.
And sorry to say this, but saying that Heroic enrage timers are unforgiving two months after the release of the raid is a bit silly...

[Osmeric]

Titanforging = people already have above 930 ilvl when they enter ToS mythic = bosses offer only marginal upgrades + bosses are tuned with titanforging in mind = you can't outgear a boss = can't farm, reprogress every reset

Titanforging is a way to make the actual drop rate of "real" (that is, titanforged) gear be low, without it being so obvious that the drop rate is low.

- - - Updated - - -

It's not a raid problem

it's titanforging.

Makes it stupidly hard to balance and just overall an awful idea

It's not making it hard to balance. They're balancing it just they way they wanted to: more difficult early, then easier later as the "real" gear slowly trickles out.

[Illana]

Titanforging is a way to make the actual drop rate of "real" (that is, titanforged) gear be low, without it being so obvious that the drop rate is low.

- - - Updated - - -



It's not making it hard to balance. They're balancing it just they way they wanted to: more difficult early, then easier later as the "real" gear slowly trickles out.

Wat? It's already RNG enough with gear drops and then you want to add titanforging to the equation?

So if 2 guilds racing for world first and one guild gets some lucky titanforges in their splitruns, how is this good in any way for competition?

You balance the raid against people having titanforged stuff: nobody can kill it unless they get lucky.
You balance the raid against no titanforges: it's too easy because someone got RNGed some gear.

[Osmeric]

Wat? It's already RNG enough with gear drops and then you want to add titanforging to the equation?

*I* want? I was talking about Blizzard there, not me.

Of course Blizzard wants gear to dribble out slowly. The slowest that players will tolerate. That should have been totally obvious.

So if 2 guilds racing for world first and one guild gets some lucky titanforges in their splitruns, how is this good in any way for competition?

Gear RNG mostly averages out, except for individual slots with oversized effect (legendaries).

Split runs are a separate problem from -forging.

[Illana]

*I* want? I was talking about Blizzard there, not me.

Of course Blizzard wants gear to dribble out slowly. The slowest that players will tolerate. That should have been totally obvious.



Gear RNG mostly averages out, except for individual slots with oversized effect (legendaries).

Split runs are a separate problem from -forging.

Sure but you completely failed to address the main point: if you balance the raid for titanforging, you give the edge to the people with luck (yes it averages out, however on world first races the sample size is not large enough for averages)

If you base it on no titanforging, the raid is too easy and again the people will luck with win out.

[Osmeric]

Sure but you completely failed to address the main point: if you balance the raid for titanforging, you give the edge to the people with luck (yes it averages out, however on world first races the sample size is not large enough for averages)

Well, too bad, so sad. I guess Blizzard doesn't think the world first race is so important that it has to be the tail that wags the entire game design dog. Yeah, the game will provide a world first race. No, not every game design decision is going to be made to optimize that race.

It should have been clear they retreated from such a high end player focus this expansion, with there being nonzero possibility of gear upgrade from so much lower end game content. Perhaps this is your underlying concern, that this retreat of focus is going to continue?

[Illana]

Well, too bad, so sad. I guess Blizzard doesn't think the world first race is so important that it has to be the tail that wags the entire game design dog. Yeah, the game will provide a world first race. No, not every game design decision is going to be made to optimize that race.

It should have been clear they retreated from such a high end player focus this expansion, with there being nonzero possibility of gear upgrade from so much lower end game content. Perhaps this is your underlying concern, that this retreat of focus is going to continue?

So ignoring the world first race.

What benefit to blizzard does having to fine tune the raid every week because they fucked up the tuning due to assumption of titanforging?

[Osmeric]

So ignoring the world first race.

No, just not making every game design decision depend entirely on that race. Game design is a process of tradeoffs.

What benefit to blizzard does having to fine tune the raid every week because they fucked up the tuning due to assumption of titanforging?

What evidence do you have that the tuning is fucked up? I already explained how the effect on tuning could be what they intended.

[Illana]

No, just not making every game design decision depend entirely on that race. Game design is a process of tradeoffs.



What evidence do you have that the tuning is fucked up? I already explained how the effect on tuning could be what they intended.

Do you not read patch notes?

August 8th:

Tomb of Sargeras

• Demonic Inquisition
  
  • Increased the time Calcified Quills takes aim at a player before casting to 5 seconds (was 3 seconds).
  • Increased the time it takes Demonic Inquisition to enrage to 12 minutes (was 8 minutes).

August 2nd:
Tomb of Sargeras

• Mistress Sassz'ine
  
  • Crashing Wave takes 1 second longer to occur after the warning visual in Mythic difficulty.
  • Concealing Murk duration increased to 12 seconds in Mythic difficulty.
  • Befouling Ink recast time in stage three increased by 5 seconds in Mythic difficulty.

July 24th:

The Fallen Avatar

• The Fallen Avatar’s health is reduced by 5% in Mythic difficulty.
• Kil’jaeden
  
  • Kil'jaeden's health reduced by 5% in Mythic difficulty.
  • Armageddon now creates 6 Armageddon Rains (was 8) in Mythic difficulty.
  • Illidan's Sightless Gaze now deals less damage in all difficulties.
  • Demonic Obelisk now spawns 3 Obelisks on the first cast in Mythic difficulty.

[fengosa]

Do you not read patch notes?

August 8th:

Tomb of Sargeras

• Demonic Inquisition
  
  • Increased the time Calcified Quills takes aim at a player before casting to 5 seconds (was 3 seconds).
  • Increased the time it takes Demonic Inquisition to enrage to 12 minutes (was 8 minutes).

August 2nd:
Tomb of Sargeras

• Mistress Sassz'ine
  
  • Crashing Wave takes 1 second longer to occur after the warning visual in Mythic difficulty.
  • Concealing Murk duration increased to 12 seconds in Mythic difficulty.
  • Befouling Ink recast time in stage three increased by 5 seconds in Mythic difficulty.

July 24th:

The Fallen Avatar

• The Fallen Avatar’s health is reduced by 5% in Mythic difficulty.
• Kil’jaeden
  
  • Kil'jaeden's health reduced by 5% in Mythic difficulty.
  • Armageddon now creates 6 Armageddon Rains (was 8) in Mythic difficulty.
  • Illidan's Sightless Gaze now deals less damage in all difficulties.
  • Demonic Obelisk now spawns 3 Obelisks on the first cast in Mythic difficulty.

Nerfing end bosses after the world first race isn't a new thing. It predates TF gear by a fair bit.

[Osmeric]

Do you not read patch notes?

And your evidence that has anything to do with -forging is...? They DID do a lot of post-release tuning on raids before -forging was added, you know.

[Illana]

And your evidence that has anything to do with -forging is...? They DID do a lot of post-release tuning on raids before -forging was added, you know.

And what happened before forging? Right 2 different raid sizes. Most of the tuning back then would be for balancing the encounters for the raid sizes.