Let's talk about Sylvanas (No she isnt evil).

[Kithelle]

She considered it.

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It's funny seeing so many people claiming that Sylvanas only cares about herself and only uses her people to keep herself alive when we have a cinematic of her literally jumping into the front lines of a battle and leading a solo charge while the rest of her forces were retreating. If all she cared about was staying alive, she'd stay as far away from the battlefield as possible.

Do you think Saurfang and the Horde would of followed her if instead of screaming "For the Horde" and attacking she just retreated and left them? I don't think they'd be lining up to follow a Warchief who left them to die, like a coward.

[Friendlyimmolation]

Do you think Saurfang and the Horde would of followed her if instead of screaming "For the Horde" and attacking she just retreated and left them? I don't think they'd be lining up to follow a Warchief who left them to die, like a coward.

Sylvanas only cares about the Horde as a meat shield, therefore she jumped into the thick of the battle to make sure she was out of danger.

[Cedon]

*speeds forward a couple of months into Legion*

*Rewinds Back to Cataclysm*

"Very well, Warchief. I have solved the plight of the Forsaken! As a race, we Forsaken are unable to procreate. With the aid of the val'kyr, we are now able to take the corpses of the fallen and create new Forsaken."

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Pro tip: They also said Kingdoms would burn in Legion as part of marketing. Well, that clearly didn't happen.

I guess you missed the part where the Legion attacked Sentinel Hill, Tarren Mill, the Crossroads, and Gadgetzhan. Oh, and the part where they were knocking on Orgrimmar's back door and Iron Forge's front door.

[Kithelle]

Sylvanas only cares about the Horde as a meat shield, therefore she jumped into the thick of the battle to make sure she was out of danger.

Emboldened meat shields perform better than demoralized meat shields, but I wouldn't expect you to understand logic.

[Friendlyimmolation]

Emboldened meat shields perform better than demoralized meat shields, but I wouldn't expect you to understand logic.

she cares enough to rally her troops, is bold enough to jump to the front lines, and doesn't run even when the battle gets tough, she embraces it. Your logic is flawed because if your argument held correctly she would have scampered off the moment her troops were rallied, not continuing to move towards the front lines.

[Whatever Dude]

I guess you missed the part where the Legion attacked Sentinel Hill, Tarren Mill, the Crossroads, and Gadgetzhan. Oh, and the part where they were knocking on Orgrimmar's back door and Iron Forge's front door.

Lol? Attacking towns and getting repelled is not remotely the same as actual entire kingdoms burning down. Please...

[Aquamonkey]

Emboldened meat shields perform better than demoralized meat shields, but I wouldn't expect you to understand logic.

She could have inspired them without solo jumping ahead of her lines into the middle of the Alliance formation. FFS, even Anduin was able to inspire his troops while standing a few ranks back.

[kail]

She has an evil streak for self preservation, but she isn't all selfish and has the intent to preserve her people. The reason why I like her is because of how gray she is.

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Bitch is horde, Horde is evil, Bitch is evil.

[Deleted]

But that old dog Stinkmane managed to talk little boy Gayduin into full-scale war with her.

Sylvie's fanbois seems insecure: whenever the yapper opens, whatever they try to say (and mostly fail), they always have to include a complete self-portrait.

[Friendlyimmolation]

Sylvie's fanbois seems insecure: whenever the yapper opens, whatever they try to say (and mostly fail), they always have to include a complete self-portrait.

the irony is not seeing the same thing in so many people who hate her.

[Kithelle]

She could have inspired them without solo jumping ahead of her lines into the middle of the Alliance formation. FFS, even Anduin was able to inspire his troops while standing a few ranks back.

She wasn't going to take out that tower from range, the thing that was killing her Undead archers.

[Deleted]

The absolute state of Sylvanas fans. They have to turn her into everything she is not to feel they can justifiably like her.

Oh no I fully appreciate the fact that from a normal persons point of view, or the alliance. Sylvanas is pure evil at this point.

And I won't deny that she has done some REALLY shifty shit in the past, but her character is evolving. What I was trying to put across in my OP is her journey as a warchief, that is, her story from legion and onwards. Blizzard seems to want her to grow beyond her up until now pretty darn evil ways. But who knows, might just not happen and she keeps doing crazy dumb shit.

But I atleast, see some real development of her character later, beyond that of tropey undead "bitch"-queen.

I like Sylvanas because she isnt pure evil, that doesnt mean I'm saying she is good, or even kind, shit she is barely into neutral territory, but she has been given more nuances lately. Which is a hell of alot more interesting than the direction most characters have been taken lately.

[Kithelle]

she cares enough to rally her troops, is bold enough to jump to the front lines, and doesn't run even when the battle gets tough, she embraces it. Your logic is flawed because if your argument held correctly she would have scampered off the moment her troops were rallied, not continuing to move towards the front lines.

Or maybe it's that your logic is biased because you defend every deplorable thing she has ever done like she is some kind of hero.

[Deleted]

Or maybe it's that your logic is biased because you defend every deplorable thing she has ever done like she is some kind of hero.

And you seem helbent that she can never change just because she did horrible things in the past? Illidan wasnt exactly some saint, people seem to like him well enough.

No one is saying she hasnt done straight up evil shit, she was awfully close to becoming the "lich queen" in my book, but her latest developments seems to indicate blizzard wanting her to at least move into a gray area.

[Leodok]

She felt the pain that is being turned into an undead.
She describes undeath as a state of constant suffering.
She still goes on campaigns to spread that curse more and more, just so that she'll have less of a chance of dying.

Legion Intro - She shows clear respect for varian, and even saves his life by attacking an infernal that was no threat to heir own airship.

Broken shore - She VISIBLE hesitates to call for a retreat, despite a direct order from her warchief, only when he pleads for her to save lives does she call the retreat, using her val'kyr to carry wounded soldiers to safety, and later on the boat when she realises the consequence of her actions, she again show visible regret.

That's called inconsistency.

she is deeply offended by the desolate council and their will to not extend their lives any further.

How dare they not want to further spread the curse that, in her own words, makes them "slaves to this torment."

she echoes one of the, if not THE most genuine "FOR THE HORDE"

LOL
Just... LOL.
No. Through all the lore, she's been shown to not actually care about the Horde. Even her own people are just the shield that prevents her from getting killed and going back to hell.

Sylvanas is being taken in an amazing direction, and I applaud Blizzard for finally casting aside tropes and bullshit hollywood storyline thinking and going for something far more subtle, but much more effective.

>character constantly changes their ideas without any explanation and everyone just buys it
>subtle

You do know Garrosh are older than Genn right?

Garrosh is WAY younger than Genn.
He was born later lore-wise, and he was created later by Blizzard as well.

[Friendlyimmolation]

Or maybe it's that your logic is biased because you defend every deplorable thing she has ever done like she is some kind of hero.

I think you have it stuck in your brain that being an asshole to your enemies does not make you a villain to your own faction. Also just because you un-ironically claim that the blight is terrible, while being firebombed or killed by a mage is somehow not, your logic is not some beacon in the darkness to aspire to.

[Kithelle]

And you seem helbent that she can never change just because she did horrible things in the past? Illidan wasnt exactly some saint, people seem to like him well enough.

No one is saying she hasnt done straight up evil shit, she was awfully close to becoming the "lich queen" in my book, but her latest developments seems to indicate blizzard wanting her to at least move into a gray area.

No, just tired of people acting like she is a saint and making up theories that make her look like some hero.

[Friendlyimmolation]

She felt the pain that is being turned into an undead.
She describes undeath as a state of constant suffering.
She still goes on campaigns to spread that curse more and more, just so that she'll have less of a chance of dying.

undeath for her is no longer a curse to her, a view shared by many forsaken.

also she felt the pain of having her soul ripped up and put back together in the form of a banshee being risen is probably painful for all undead I would assume, but Sylvanas was specifically made to feel so much pain that when she voiced it her screams could kill.

That's called inconsistency.

No, it really isn't unless you can prove it, which you can't.

How dare they not want to further spread the curse that, in her own words, makes them "slaves to this torment."

An opinion she hasn't had since Cata.

LOL
Just... LOL.
No. Through all the lore, she's been shown to not actually care about the Horde. Even her own people are just the shield that prevents her from getting killed and going back to hell.

See Aquamonkey's post for the 500th time.

>character constantly changes their ideas without any explanation and everyone just buys it
>subtle

In a land of warcraft characters, Sylvanas can be considered subtle.

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No, just tired of people acting like she is a saint and making up theories that make her look like some hero.

Except she is a Hero to the Horde, now more than ever.

[Kraddark]

Sylvanas is evil. You basically listed a series of events where she's not a complete villain but there are just as many instances of her using banned bio weapons, murdering civilians or lying to allies.

[Aquamonkey]

She wasn't going to take out that tower from range, the thing that was killing her Undead archers.

It actually wasn't. Also, there were a bunch of other siege towers. You still fail to explain how her jumping into the Alliance formation while her broken troops retreat is somehow a logical self-preservation move.