I propose this: Give the raids back to the raiders

[Akka]

So how does LFR impact your Normal and HM progression experience? You still get to flaunt your progression and shinies in the face of those that do LFR.

Are you completely blind ?
LFR and faceroll difficulty in general has HUGE impact upon content. From a post previously in the thread :

The very existence of ultra-easy content drastically alters the rest of the game, regardless of if I use it or not.
Welfare gear means that previous content is irrelevant - alt just get teleported to the end, without progression.
Being able to see all the content in 30 mn remove one of the main motivation - HAVING to down the boss to progress further (again, "progression").
Gear, new instances and the like need to be tuned according to the overall balance of the game.
Saying "just don't do it if you don't like to" is just short-sighted at best, disingenuous at worst. LFR and such do alter the game in massive ways, regardless of if I play it or not.

And I'd like to point again : when you had more content than you could consume, how having other people having other content affected your own progression and experience ?

No, that was also a ridiculous metaphor. The crucial point is the difference in business models, between an MMO and a school.

Except I'm not talking about the "business model", but about the ridiculousness of wanting to alter the essence of an activity just so you can do it.
Business model explains why Blizzard still did this idiotic move, but it doesn't invalidate the wrongfulness of the concept.

[Monkeybrains]

Are you completely blind ?
LFR and faceroll difficulty in general has HUGE impact upon content. From a post previously in the thread :

Gear, new instances and the like need to be tuned according to the overall balance of the game.
Saying "just don't do it if you don't like to" is just short-sighted at best, disingenuous at worst. LFR and such do alter the game in massive ways, regardless of if I play it or not.

So if loot was removed from LFR and maybe just offered gold, jp points, and the occasional "satchel of goods" (kind of like the random dungeon finder does for healers and tanks occassionally) would that fix the issue?

Just looking for an alternative to saying "if you can't commit to the grind and time then you can't see the end game".

[Akka]

So if loot was removed from LFR and maybe just offered gold, jp points, and the occasional "satchel of goods" (kind of like the random dungeon finder does for healers and tanks occassionally) would that fix the issue?

From the very post you answer to :

Being able to see all the content in 30 mn remove one of the main motivation - HAVING to down the boss to progress further (again, "progression").

I'd also like to add a personnal opinion on rewards : getting a reward is good when it feels deserved. Rarer rewards means they are more meaningful. The bad habit of giving reward EVERYWHERE and for everything cheapened the feeling of in-game accomplishment to the point of disgust. Well-dosed scarcity and subtlety often work better than overabundance. Getting one epic when most of the gear is green and a few is blue is "OMFG YEAH". Getting epics when everything and his mother give one is just run-of-the-mill. A LOTS of fun is lost this way.

Just looking for an alternative to saying "if you can't commit to the grind and time then you can't see the end game".

I don't see why there should be an alternative to "if you don't like running, there is no point to doing a Marathon".
If people don't have the time or the desire to do big-team-based content, then the good thing is to provide more non-team-based content, not to gut out the big-team-based content so that it can be done without a team, and breaking three quarter of the game doing so.

[Monkeybrains]

From the very post you answer to :

Being able to see all the content in 30 mn remove one of the main motivation - HAVING to down the boss to progress further (again, "progression").


I don't see why there should be an alternative to "if you don't like running, there is no point to doing a Marathon".
If people don't have the time or the desire to do big-team-based content, then the good thing is to provide more non-team-based content, not to gut out the big-team-based content so that it can be done without a team, and break three quarter of the game doing so.

So if raiding is 3/4 of the game as you claim...then maybe Blizzard should offer a discount of 75% for those people that don't / can't raid and only want "non-team-based content"? I personally would love to only pay $3.75 a month and only get to pvp, quest, pet battle, get achievements, 5 mans, challenge modes etc.

Wonder what kind of raid content Blizzard could deliver you with this reduced monthly income? Maybe some of us don't want to fund your entertainment level in WoW. Pay for your own content perhaps?

[Narrax]

I dont understand why people constantly complain about this game not being hardcore enough. Just quit!!! Blizzard has decided they are focused mostly on making a game where everyone can experience all content so they can make the most money. There is nothing wrong with that. Anyone hear of that newer game "Rift"? I hear they do raiding like it was in BC and while it doesn't have the huge numbers WoW does, it is still second in line for mmos.

Stop belly aching about how a game is and quit and try something else that falls into the category of game you would like!! Maybe if people stopped playing and paying then WoW will change.

[BaZERGer]

I suppose the only way to solve this without one group being dissatisfied, would be having different difficulties based on realm.

[link064]

There have actually been a few good points made as to why LFR could be hurting the game (although most of which is unsubstantiated conjecture). However, it's hyperbole like this that just makes me shake my head.

The very existence of ultra-easy content drastically alters the rest of the game, regardless of if I use it or not.

"Drastically alters" is an enormous stretch. It's adding an additional game mode that others can complete that in no way affects your ability to continue to pursue other game modes. Does it lessen the number of players willing to complete the other modes? Likely, yes, but that seems to be a problem more with crappy server populations and people trying to PUG with the lowest common denominator. Those "real raiders" won't have any trouble filling spots in their "real raids".

Welfare gear means that previous content is irrelevant - alt just get teleported to the end, without progression.

Not sure where you're going with this. Welfare gear has been in the game since BC and there'd be "welfare epics" even without LFR.

Being able to see all the content in 30 mn remove one of the main motivation - HAVING to down the boss to progress further (again, "progression").

Every raider worth their salt knows the difference between LFR, normal, and hard modes. Those who are only there to "see all the content", likely never wanted to participate in normal modes anyway so there's no point in chaining them down and saying "no, you have to suffer with the rest of us". The remainders are the ones that actually want to clear content and progress.

Gear, new instances and the like need to be tuned according to the overall balance of the game.

There's really two ways to look at this, neither of which is beneficial to your argument.
1. "Real raids" are tuned higher (which seems to be exactly what you guys want anyway), because higher ilvl gear is easier to get
2. "Real raids" are tuned where they've always been because they're tuned for players in justice point (i.e. last raid tier's) gear

Saying "just don't do it if you don't like to" is just short-sighted at best, disingenuous at worst. LFR and such do alter the game in massive ways, regardless of if I play it or not.

Maybe I'm missing something here, but nothing you've mentioned has altered the game in any meaningful way to detract from non-LFR'ers.

Except I'm not talking about the "business model", but about the ridiculousness of wanting to alter the essence of an activity just so you can do it.
Business model explains why Blizzard still did this idiotic move, but it doesn't invalidate the wrongfulness of the concept.

I'm guessing you also walk around town complaining about all the pick-up games of 2v2 basketball on non-regulation-height nets because they don't conform to a very specific set of rules that the "hardcores" have set out?

[Sentinel]

I don't even see normal mode as content, its just something you do week one of the tier and then never go back. As far as I'm concerned heroic mode is the only 'real raiding' and everyone else gets to play around in the joke content.

Everyone wins, well except those who only derive joy from epeening.

My guild doesn't even attempt heroics because no one wants to. They just want to farm normals every week. Why they do this, I have no idea. All I know is the last 2 pieces of gear I need from 10mNorm either never drop, or the undergeared newbie that shares my token that just decided to come this week won it over me; which gets infuriating after a while.

Going weeks without any sort of new upgrade sucks, especially when you don't have a single Heroic piece and are quite geared for it.

[Norzuk]

I'll sum up what the OP said:

- I don't wan't these badies to see the content that I, that do not have anything else to do with my life, see. I want this because I expend my whole life to this game and I wan't to feel special about this, unique you know. I wan't to get that epic weapon and stay for like 3 hours in front of Org AH showing others how awesome I am.

You're wrong, because:

1 - Get a life, a job to pay for your game, a wife to ask you for attention, and maybe a kid, and see how hardcore you can be... (raid 2 - 3 times a week? pffffff good luck)
2 - It's a game, you are talking like it was a job or something.
3 - Mind your own game, try to beat the tops, and don't mind with those who are fine with doing DS just one time to see the encounter other than do it 300.000 times to get a better piece of pixel.
4 - It's a game...
5 - It's a god damn game.

If you want to feel special about your achievements, I know about a hardcore game:

1 - Just one life, if you die its over;
2 - the competition is overwhelming;
3 - Boss are tougher than you can imagine, and will demand your soul.
4 - And it is very unforgiving.

The game is called: "Real Life"

[Akka]

So if raiding is 3/4 of the game as you claim...

That's not what I claim. What I claim is that they broke three quarters of the game by gutting raids of their essence (because, obviously, of the side-effect I already re-quoted for you barely a handful of posts above), not that raids are 3/4 of the game.

Did you even TRY to understand, or did you just jump on the first strawman you could find ?

I dont understand why people constantly complain about this game not being hardcore enough.

The answers are all over this thread. But I guess the same mindset of "can't be arsed to do anything" apply both in-game and while reading a thread.

"Drastically alters" is an enormous stretch. It's adding an additional game mode that others can complete that in no way affects your ability to continue to pursue other game modes.

Yes it does, for all the reasons listed :

Everything except the last tier is made irrelevant, discovering the content has become a tourism trip instead of a big motivation, no more progression because of the constant reset, rewards have lost their appeal due to overabundance, gameplay is absent save in the last tier because of gear inflation and dumbing down the content.

Maybe I'm missing something here, but nothing you've mentioned has altered the game in any meaningful way to detract from non-LFR'ers.

If you consider removing 90 % of the content, removing progression and removing motivators as not meaningfully altering the game, either you're incredibly stupid or incredibly trollish.

I'm guessing you also walk around town complaining about all the pick-up games of 2v2 basketball on non-regulation-height nets because they don't conform to a very specific set of rules that the "hardcores" have set out?

Do people who play 2v2 basketball come whining to have the rules of the game changed so they can play in NBA with these alterations ? No ? Then your answer is missing the core point.

I'll sum up what the OP said

No, you'll just sprout the same retarded strawmen that litters every thread about this subject and are debunked about twice per page.
But the kind of people who do that, are the same kind who don't bother to read these answers (or, if they ever read them, simply ignore the points made anyway), and feel very smart about their copy-pasted crap.

[Mooshelle]

I'll sum up what the OP said:

- I don't wan't these badies to see the content that I, that do not have anything else to do with my life, see. I want this because I expend my whole life to this game and I wan't to feel special about this, unique you know. I wan't to get that epic weapon and stay for like 3 hours in front of Org AH showing others how awesome I am.

You're wrong, because:

1 - Get a life, a job to pay for your game, a wife to ask you for attention, and maybe a kid, and see how hardcore you can be... (raid 2 - 3 times a week? pffffff good luck)
2 - It's a game, you are talking like it was a job or something.
3 - Mind your own game, try to beat the tops, and don't mind with those who are fine with doing DS just one time to see the encounter other than do it 300.000 times to get a better piece of pixel.
4 - It's a game...
5 - It's a god damn game.

If you want to feel special about your achievements, I know about a hardcore game:

1 - Just one life, if you die its over;
2 - the competition is overwhelming;
3 - Boss are tougher than you can imagine, and will demand your soul.
4 - And it is very unforgiving.

The game is called: "Real Life"

What this guy said!!!

wanna impress someone?....do something impressive

Also cant believe this post has over 1000 responses
Also also whats a "strawman" the OP keeps using?

[Monkeybrains]

What this guy said!!!

wanna impress someone?....do something impressive

Also cant believe this post has over 1000 responses

"ZOMG I KEEL INTERWEB DRAGONZ WITH MY PIXELATED FIREBALLZ!!!!! I ARE THE GR8ST!!!!"

That's what I've been hearing from alot of these posters about wanting to keep "raids hard". Cuz let's face it...WoW is not hard...never was really...its pixels on the computer and pushing buttons on your keyboard.

[Deleted]

Akka: what outdated raids and why make believe? I guess you cleared t11 before t12 before t13 or am I wrong?

Akka and others, can you explain what the difference between the different styles of raiding are for a hard core guild? Apart from the week where they have to clear normal to unlock hc today.

1. TBC style: Guilds has to finish one group of raids to go on with the next. When raids are done guilds have to wait for the next one to be available in a patch.

2. Cata style: Guilds can jump into any raid available. When raids are done guilds have to wait for the next one to be available in a patch and meanwhile see the stuff they cleared getting nerfed to help people that aren't quite as good as the top guilds are.

The difference I see is that other people will be able to skip the first tiers if they want. Although HC raiders will clear everything long before nerfs etc. What is the problem really? Is it that those other people don't have to go through everything from square one? As it does not affect guilds like Method for example.

In MoP there will be gating where you have to clear one raid before entering the next and LFR gear will be worse than previous tier's hc gear...

And I'm not talking LFR at all as this was about giving raids back to the raiders. Who decides that btw? Who are raiders and who are not?

[Monkeybrains]

Also also whats a "strawman" the OP keeps using?

Not sure if the OP knows what a "strawman" is but here is the definition for the rest:

[1] A straw man is a type of argument and is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position.
[2] To "attack a straw man" is to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by replacing it with a superficially similar yet unequivalent proposition (the "straw man"), and refuting it, without ever having actually refuted the original position

Basically putting words in the OP's mouth.

[Akka]

"ZOMG I KEEL INTERWEB DRAGONZ WITH MY PIXELATED FIREBALLZ!!!!! I ARE THE GR8ST!!!!"

That's what I've been hearing from alot of these posters about wanting to keep "raids hard". Cuz let's face it...WoW is not hard...never was really...its pixels on the computer and pushing buttons on your keyboard.

I notice that NONE of my answers were about this, but you still went back to using this strawman - exactly that : inventing a position that is supposed to be the one of the opposition, but is not, allowing for you to pretend you've made a point when in fact it's completely irrelevant as this was NOT what was argued to begin with. Guess it proves how much of a good faith you put into this. Not that I'm particularly surprised, anyone using a strawman proves he is only here to "win", not to find actual truth.

BTW, I find it very funny that so many people are both defending facerolling materials against the "evil elitists" AND at the same time claiming how easy WoW always has been.
I know you're not going to be honest, but at least be consistant in your dishonesty : either it's easy (and then there is no need to nerf it, so your arguments for LFR and nerfs over time are unsubstanciated), either it's hard (and then why saying it's easy ?).

Akka: what outdated raids and why make believe? I guess you cleared t11 before t12 before t13 or am I wrong?

I've already answered this several times. If you're not going to bother to read, then what's the point to bother to write ?

[Norzuk]

Akka: what outdated raids and why make believe? I guess you cleared t11 before t12 before t13 or am I wrong?

Akka and others, can you explain what the difference between the different styles of raiding are for a hard core guild? Apart from the week where they have to clear normal to unlock hc today.

1. TBC style: Guilds has to finish one group of raids to go on with the next. When raids are done guilds have to wait for the next one to be available in a patch.

2. Cata style: Guilds can jump into any raid available. When raids are done guilds have to wait for the next one to be available in a patch and meanwhile see the stuff they cleared getting nerfed to help people that aren't quite as good as the top guilds are.

The difference I see is that other people will be able to skip the first tiers if they want. Although HC raiders will clear everything long before nerfs etc. What is the problem really? Is it that those other people don't have to go through everything from square one? As it does not affect guilds like Method for example.

In MoP there will be gating where you have to clear one raid before entering the next and LFR gear will be worse than previous tier's hc gear...

And I'm not talking LFR at all as this was about giving raids back to the raiders. Who decides that btw? Who are raiders and who are not?

Thats the point, make the content easier later on changes nothing to the raiders, but changes everything to those that aren't good enough (I mean those not pros).

What I see the OPs problem is with other getting access, he doesnt want to people that can't play as much as he does, or just isn't as good as he is to not see or have what he has.

On MoP we will have challenge modes, with bronze, silver and gold medals. He will probably have the opportunity to run for a gold medal, I'll be fine with a silver one or even with a bronze one. I just want to have fun, I don't want to be the best. For that, I have my job.

[vinnyboombat]

If blizzard had to choose between the monthly money from raiders, or the monthly money from casuals, raiders would lose. Just accept it and move on with what you're given.

[Norzuk]

BTW, I find it very funny that so many people are both defending facerolling materials against the "evil elitists" AND at the same time claiming how easy WoW always has been.
I know you're not going to be honest, but at least be consistant in your dishonesty : either it's easy (and then there is no need to nerf it, so your arguments for LFR and nerfs over time are unsubstanciated), either it's hard (and then why saying it's easy ?).

I've already answered this several times. If you're not going to bother to read, then what's the point to bother to write ?

The game is easy. Facerolling if you may call it. Thanks God, and because of that there is so many people I know (IRL included) that plays wow because it is easy, they do it for their entertainment. However, there is still part of the game that is incredibly hard. Like, I never placed my hands over a Legendary weapon. I had once half piece of Thunderfury, got that in aug, 2005, and that's it. There are some achievements really insanes (the insane title as an example). PVP wise i never got over 1800 (as most of players). But wining or losing, I'm having fun! I don't mind I wont get first kill, I just wanna get A kill, see the lil movie at the end of it, enjoy the storyline, hang out on vent with friends, thats it. And master my new pokemon skill... cof... I mean, battle pet training.

[Deleted]

I've already answered this several times. If you're not going to bother to read, then what's the point to bother to write ?

No, you keep talking about progression. Moving from one tier to the next it progression. It is up to you if you skip a tier or not. Blizzard is not deciding that for you. You don't have to do the side stuff just because it is there and you will not need to do it in MoP as hc gear will always be better than everything at the same tier and the next tier of LFR.

[Monkeybrains]

I notice that NONE of my answers were about this, but you still went back to using this strawman - exactly that : inventing a position that is supposed to be the one of the opposition, but is not, allowing for you to pretend you've made a point when in fact it's completely irrelevant as this was NOT what was argued to begin with. Guess it proves how much of a good faith you put into this. Not that I'm particularly surprised, anyone using a strawman proves he is only here to "win", not to find actual truth.

BTW, I find it very funny that so many people are both defending facerolling materials against the "evil elitists" AND at the same time claiming how easy WoW always has been.
I know you're not going to be honest, but at least be consistant in your dishonesty : either it's easy (and then there is no need to nerf it, so your arguments for LFR and nerfs over time are unsubstanciated), either it's hard (and then why saying it's easy ?).

Wow talk about "strawman"! Pretty sure not once did I ask for nerfs to raid content so I can say "i beat wow", nor did I suggest LFR needs to be a loot pinata and considered a "raid".

1) LFR with no loot but other rewards system (ie gold, jp, vanity items) would be fine by me.
2) Nerfs over time are not a bad thing, especially at the end of xpacs (for new players perhaps to get them through content before a new xpac)
3) Nerfs should no way impact your raiding experience or achievement if done properly, long after "raiders" have cleared content.
4) Keeping Nerfs out of the raiding model makes it so that most players don't ever get to see any content (ie someone who picks up Cata halfway through maybe?) Should they be at a disadvantage just due to the time they started playing?
5) Raid tiers in a BC model become outdated when "raiders" have long progressed past that Tier and don't have a desire to go back to get someone up to current level of progression. (See point 4 above...if you don't raid early in an xpac good luck catching up)
6) Let's not forget, Nerfs also have the benefit of gearing up alts (especially in the downtime of waiting for xpacs). If a raider clears all the content on his main character does he/she really want to grind through the same time commitment just to do the same raids with another toon they'd like to try to master?

As I said before...BC Model works great if we all have 1 toon we progress with as a main. It also is easier to want to commit to such a raiding experience when everything still is "new and shiny". It's hard to keep something as interesting as WoW to someone over the course of 7+ years...no matter what it's all going to start looking the same after awhile.