[Megathread] Star Citizen

[Rennadrel]

Pretty much.

People keep talking about the "scope" of this game but scope means jack when you are taking forever to develop it.

You can spend all the time developing the best game in the world with high end features and it can still end up being terrible.

The average game takes about 5 years to properly develop. Consider that engine design alone can be a 3 to 5 year job, and there was no engine on the market capable of doing what CIG needed and Cry Engine is one of the more advanced game engines out there that still needed extensive rework to fit into the design scope, I am still not at all surprised that CIG is taking this long to even roll out 3.0. I haven't played it much because of the time between major patches but I figure it's better than getting tired of playing an incomplete product and not wanting to play it when it is done.

[KyrtF]

You probably out of the loop but there's a bunch of bitter folks that simply don't want to see Star Citizen succeed

No....there isn't.

There are a bunch of people who would love to see Star Citizen succeed but aren't prepared to put up with Chris Roberts incompetence or keep quiet about the many problens Star Citizen is showing.

And then there are people like yourself who seem to think neither Chris Roberts nor CIG can make a mistake.

Calling out their bullshit is easy because they have no leg to stand on.

The game isn't released, the engine is still being worked on, the project leader is incompetent, development times and costs are massively underestimated, there is no content, the game mechanics are largely MIA and the graphics need a complete overhaul already.

This is what you call "no leg". And I could go on.

Oh did he? A guy who creates a company from scratch in 5 years with 400+ dev's and amasses about 2$million's per month on it's way to the 161$million, makes partnerships with AMD, NVIDIA, INTEL, AMAZON and has been feature in multiple gaming magazines articles WHILE building a game and opening it's process for anyone who cares to see is "fucking up" ohohoh. Basically you don't know what you talk about.

He's a salesman. He is not a project leader. Just about every project he has led has run into problems that either ended it or required outside help...e.g Freelancer.

He sold a grand vision which brought in a lot of cash. He isn't the first snake oil salesman to do that and won't be the last. Thst cash brought attention...inevitable these days....but it doesn't mean he didn't make a mistake.

You can't expect a game like this to be made without making "mistakes", it's part of it. If you go by that scrutiny EVERY developer makes "mistakes" and it's OK for them to make those, they are essential part of any creative development.

Mistakes? Yes.
Incompetence? No.

Chris Roberts is incompetent.

Not keeping third parties upto date on engine changes is not a mistake. Its a basic part of his job and he failed to do it, wasting millions of YOUR cash and years of development as a result.

Missing release dates and internal milestones shows that CR and CIG continually underestimate the time, money, manpower and resourves necessary to meet their goals.

Not by a few days either...but by MONTHS.

That proves CR is incapable of performing the role he is in. He cannot manage this project. He is operating FAR above his level of competence and as a result, costs and development time are far beyond what they should be.

From what we've seen now Chris Roberts made all the right decisions because CIG is still going strong, Star Citizen and Squadron 42 are still being developed and people and money keep coming in. If they had folded and crashed yes you could talk about "failing" and "mistakes".

That is a strange standard to judge success. Its a mighty unusual stanfard.

It is also one which shows he has succeeded at selling the idea.

It isn't one which shows he has succeeded at implementing it. That the game is literally years overdue and still years away from release, that he has messed up the basic aspects of his job, that he has fluffed even basic decisions....these show he has failed.

I'll be disappointed if Star Citizen fails. But I won't be hurt.

Thing is...."if" is rapidly becoming "when". CIG so far seems to be running out of money, refunds serm to be increasing, fundraising is going down, interest is decreasing and CIG hasn't budgetted for marketing, publication or hosting.

More, we cannot take CRs comment that they have enough money to finish the game at face value. For one, he has continually failed in his estination of costs and fircall that he is relying on S42 sales to fund SC...he seems to think S42 will be a huge success.

S42 is going to be using the same engine and code as SC and that isn't ready. S42 like SC is years away from release...unless he actually listens to his brother and gets the engine finished. And even then, no guarantee it'll be a success.

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The average game takes about 5 years to properly develop. Consider that engine design alone can be a 3 to 5 year job, and there was no engine on the market capable of doing what CIG needed and Cry Engine is one of the more advanced game engines out there that still needed extensive rework to fit into the design scope, I am still not at all surprised that CIG is taking this long to even roll out 3.0. I haven't played it much because of the time between major patches but I figure it's better than getting tired of playing an incomplete product and not wanting to play it when it is done.

And then look to reality where the 5 year development cycle you refer to often includes the engine development.

And the realisation that if there was no engine around it would be quicker
and cheaper to develop your own.

CIG chose CryEngine not because it was suitable...it wasn't..but because it was pretty and because they planned to farm work out to 3rd parties.

For a WC successor, that could have worked.

Once CR decided to throw that idea away, he should have changed his plan. CE needed MAJOR rework to support an MMO that would not be needed for his original plan. But CR still farmed out the work to 3rd parties and then didn't keep them in the loop about his engine "upgrades"

[Majestic12]

We have nothing to discuss. You're a bullshiter and don't know nothing about Star Citizen or you have interest in knowing, you lie and deceive because you got nothing else. Your necessity to try and pretend of being evocati and playing 3.0 to validate your opinions showed everything about you and your pathetic motives.

Keep hating we keep on backing.

Derek Smart succeeded because of people like you. He poisoned the well enough so that you can't see reason or anything else other than 'Smarties'. This is all on you.

In every post, you bring up the fact that I'm Evocati and you're not. Seems like I really struck a coord with that one. As a certain filmquote once said... "You can't handle the truth!" You're fuming over the fact that I have contributed to Star Citizen more than you and still say these things.

You're just a Shillizen nobody. That's why you even made the account you're posting from. That says it all really, you're a fake and a troll.

[MrAnderson]

Again you keep going with those hyperbolic mad ramblings about Chris Roberts like if you were twisting his arm into submission and make him resign lol.

It's useless and a waste of time. You can keep making stuff up year after year, financial dramas, refunds, layoff's whatever you guys pull out of your asses is utterly meaninfull and a waste of time. It was in 2014, 2015, 2016 and now and will be in the next year and the other one and so on.

Only guillable goons and ed fanboys eat up that shit. People on the sidelines just poke around from time to time and wonder why people who dont like the game's direction or management anymore cant let go ans move on with their lifes. Well it might be because they dont have one.

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Derek Smart succeeded because of people like you. He poisoned the well enough so that you can't see reason or anything else other than 'Smarties'. This is all on you.

In every post, you bring up the fact that I'm Evocati and you're not. Seems like I really struck a coord with that one. As a certain filmquote once said... "You can't handle the truth!" You're fuming over the fact that I have contributed to Star Citizen more than you and still say these things.

You're just a Shillizen nobody. That's why you even made the account you're posting from. That says it all really, you're a fake and a troll.

Keep lying it just shows how desperate you are. Bullshitters got nothing so they need to make up stuff to fuel the trollinh. Smarty acolytes are as sad as dumb.

[Majestic12]

Again you keep going with those hyperbolic mad ramblings about Chris Roberts like if you were twisting his arm into submission and make him resign lol.

It's useless and a waste of time. You can keep making stuff up year after year, financial dramas, refunds, layoff's whatever you guys pull out of your asses is utterly meaninfull and a waste of time. It was in 2014, 2015, 2016 and now and will be in the next year and the other one and so on.

Only guillable goons and ed fanboys eat up that shit. People on the sidelines just poke around from time to time and wonder why people who dont like the game's direction or management anymore cant let go ans move on with their lifes. Well it might be because they dont have one.

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Keep lying it just shows how desperate you are. Bullshitters got nothing so they need to make up stuff to fuel the trollinh. Smarty acolytes are as sad as dumb.

That's all you have now? Mindless repeating yourself?

Let's see:

1. You actively avoid discussing examples and specifics.
2. You mindlessly shill with a fake account.
3. You post here every day.

Nothing but sunk cost fallacy. Come back when you're ready to debate or to actually argue specifics. You can start with this one that you conveniently never answered:

Let's stick with the performance-increasing 3.0 that he said would hit in December for a bit. Why would Chris go and tell everybody that? Is it because:

1. He knew it wouldn't be ready and lied to the backers to increase hype/crowdfunding. (He misled us)
2. He believed it would be ready but was severily mistaken. (He is incompetent)

Which is it, Mr.Anderson?

[MrAnderson]

I tought you got a refund. Why are you saying you are being misled by CR when you dont take his sayings as seriously?

Missing dates or changing scope is normal in game development.

That's why anyone with a clue takes like estimatives that they are. You and the other haters with an axe to grind , dumb as dumbells, take them as written in stone. Yet you forget or pretend that other devs do exactly the same, Sean Murray, David Braben, Kojima, Garriot and any other dev that dares to speak in public and give a grasp of info about the future of their games misses the mark in some way or another.

You are a liar and a deceiver pretending to be evocati when you probably havent played the game in years.

You are an extension of your own flaw, preaching ignorance like its gospel. Problem is that real life catches on eventually.

You got nothing but frustration and spite, so you turn into a sad smartie echo chambering goon bullshit.

When 3.0 releases you will go back to your private cave/discord/forum, lick the wounds, regroup and come back with another spin on the bullshittery fud propaganda.

Go ahead, I'll be right her with ma popcorns ready.

- - - Updated - - -

TLDR: You cant make the perfect omelet without breaking some eggs along the way.

Kids who never steped into a kitchen see some broken eggs and cry "incompetent"

Same old story every year. Kids cry Star Citizen development keeps on going making millions and gathering more and more fans.

Looking back, No wonder they are salty.

[1001]

I tought you got a refund. Why are you saying you are being misled by CR when you dont take his sayings as seriously?

Missing dates or changing scope is normal in game development.

That's why anyone with a clue takes like estimatives that they are. You and the other haters with an axe to grind , dumb as dumbells, take them as written in stone. Yet you forget or pretend that other devs do exactly the same, Sean Murray, David Braben, Kojima, Garriot and any other dev that dares to speak in public and give a grasp of info about the future of their games misses the mark in some way or another.

Missing every single date or the majority of dates is not common at all. Imagine if we all functioned like that.... The majority of studios set goals and achieve them, they set alpha/beta/patch/release dates and more often than not achieve them, CIG struggle for some reason.

Most companies give a heads up prior to missing a date, CIG just go silent and leave people wondering WTF is going on.

They can't even start their streams or conventions on time...

[Majestic12]

I tought you got a refund. Why are you saying you are being misled by CR when you dont take his sayings as seriously?

Missing dates or changing scope is normal in game development.

That's why anyone with a clue takes like estimatives that they are. You and the other haters with an axe to grind , dumb as dumbells, take them as written in stone. Yet you forget or pretend that other devs do exactly the same, Sean Murray, David Braben, Kojima, Garriot and any other dev that dares to speak in public and give a grasp of info about the future of their games misses the mark in some way or another.

You are a liar and a deceiver pretending to be evocati when you probably havent played the game in years.

You are an extension of your own flaw, preaching ignorance like its gospel. Problem is that real life catches on eventually.

You got nothing but frustration and spite, so you turn into a sad smartie echo chambering goon bullshit.

When 3.0 releases you will go back to your private cave/discord/forum, lick the wounds, regroup and come back with another spin on the bullshittery fud propaganda.

Go ahead, I'll be right her with ma popcorns ready.

- - - Updated - - -

TLDR: You cant make the perfect omelet without breaking some eggs along the way.

Kids who never steped into a kitchen see some broken eggs and cry "incompetent"

Same old story every year. Kids cry Star Citizen development keeps on going making millions and gathering more and more fans.

Looking back, No wonder they are salty.

I didn't get a refund, I submitted for a refund. Difference if you actually knew the delays and how swamped the CIG support/ticketstaff is. Are you really trying to distract from the subject at hand with that?

So your answer to my question is that Chis isn't incompetent. That the Netcode was somehow very close to being done for December but a magical delay happened that pushed it out completely and we got a different 3.0 (not even technically released) 10 months late?

I think you're dreaming, just like Chris. What you don't get is that we will be the ones to suffer for this ultimately, not Chris. He is already rich and he didn't even have to release the game.

I absolutely love how you brought real life into this, thinking I am or will be in a bad spot. FYI I am a senior developer in the government of my country. I know development, unlike you. Knowing development is the only reason I put so much time into Star Citizen's testing, because I find it interesting. And SC in its original pitch was exactly what I wanted.

Not a single thing I have written in this thread is a lie. I am a dev, I like testing so I put hours into SC, and I have been Evocati ever since it became a thing. If you don't like that, then just drop it. Yet you keep bringing it up in every single post. You're that petty and upset about what I have to say about SC that you just can't let it go.

Yes, I'm frustrated with Chris, because he had the opportunity of a lifetime and this is what he did. SC went from a genuine project with financial accountability all accounted for(pun intended) in the TOS. Then when the time came, he postponed the date, and finally removed it entirely. It's a scumbag move. But I'm curious what you think about that TOS change in particular? Why would they add it only to remove it later when it's time to show the financials? This is outside of delays or anything of the sort, this is about CIG vs. accountability and what they decided to add/remove to the TOS.

FYI, 11 lines of text don't need a TL;DR.

[Sezerek]

@Majestic12 have you thought on changing your avatar to kiljaeden...as a tribute to mrandersen calling you "the deceiver" nonstop?

[Majestic12]

@Majestic12 have you thought on changing your avatar to kiljaeden...as a tribute to mrandersen calling you "the deceiver" nonstop?

Haha, no. But maybe I should. I probably am the burning legion to him. In the end, he's hoping that Star Citizen will release in all its glory and I will be on my knees saying "... I always envied you..." and then he has won.

[MrAnderson]

I didn't get a refund, I submitted for a refund. Difference if you actually knew the delays and how swamped the CIG support/ticketstaff is. Are you really trying to distract from the subject at hand with that?

So your answer to my question is that Chis isn't incompetent. That the Netcode was somehow very close to being done for December but a magical delay happened that pushed it out completely and we got a different 3.0 (not even technically released) 10 months late?

I think you're dreaming, just like Chris. What you don't get is that we will be the ones to suffer for this ultimately, not Chris. He is already rich and he didn't even have to release the game.

I absolutely love how you brought real life into this, thinking I am or will be in a bad spot. FYI I am a senior developer in the government of my country. I know development, unlike you. Knowing development is the only reason I put so much time into Star Citizen's testing, because I find it interesting. And SC in its original pitch was exactly what I wanted.

Not a single thing I have written in this thread is a lie. I am a dev, I like testing so I put hours into SC, and I have been Evocati ever since it became a thing. If you don't like that, then just drop it. Yet you keep bringing it up in every single post. You're that petty and upset about what I have to say about SC that you just can't let it go.

Yes, I'm frustrated with Chris, because he had the opportunity of a lifetime and this is what he did. SC went from a genuine project with financial accountability all accounted for(pun intended) in the TOS. Then when the time came, he postponed the date, and finally removed it entirely. It's a scumbag move. But I'm curious what you think about that TOS change in particular? Why would they add it only to remove it later when it's time to show the financials? This is outside of delays or anything of the sort, this is about CIG vs. accountability and what they decided to add/remove to the TOS.

FYI, 11 lines of text don't need a TL;DR.

I dont known why do you keep lying. You are not on the evocati and you will never be. You dont understand what you backed and you cry foul because of it.

Lies and trolling its all you got.

What will you make up after 3.0 release? Humour us

PS- any account that asks for a refund is removed from evocati and not elegible for evocati access automatically, you should know that

[Majestic12]

I dont known why do you keep lying. You are not on the evocati and you will never be. You dont understand what you backed and you cry foul because of it.

Lies and trolling its all you got.

What will you make up after 3.0 release? Humour us

PS- any account that asks for a refund is removed from evocati and not elegible for evocati access automatically, you should know that

Once again, you ignore my question and go on a subjective rant.

My. Refund. Has. Not. Been. Processed. Yet. Not one reply. Get it yet? I've only said it three times. Yes, I will probably lose my entire account and no I don't care. I'm over that. I gave away a 25 dollar double-game pack to a new account as a contingency so that I can keep playing the game outside of free fight weeks. I won't miss testing SC one bit.

So are you going to address what I asked you above, or are you going to dodge again?

[Post]

Oh did he? A guy who creates a company from scratch in 5 years with 400+ dev's and amasses about 2$million's per month on it's way to the 161$million, makes partnerships with AMD, NVIDIA, INTEL, AMAZON and has been feature in multiple gaming magazines articles WHILE building a game and opening it's process for anyone who cares to see is "fucking up" ohohoh. Basically you don't know what you talk about.

Yes, if he didn't we'd be playing the game instead of waiting for delay #500, with the entire thread trying to talk sense into someone who would fight to the death to defend this mess.

[MrAnderson]

Once again, you ignore my question and go on a subjective rant.

My. Refund. Has. Not. Been. Processed. Yet. Not one reply. Get it yet? I've only said it three times. Yes, I will probably lose my entire account and no I don't care. I'm over that. I gave away a 25 dollar double-game pack to a new account as a contingency so that I can keep playing the game outside of free fight weeks. I won't miss testing SC one bit.

So are you going to address what I asked you above, or are you going to dodge again?

Lol are you that dumb? It doesn't matter if you get a show or get "processed". If you ask for a refund your account automatically is removed from Evocati, it's in the terms of agreement of Evocati, you did read them didn't you ? Just like you read when you pledged for Star Citizen up to the 600$ right?

Ofc not, because your dumb and a troll with nothing else but a grudge. Stop wasting everybody's time with useless goon rubish. It's old and rehashed trolling that gets you nothing.

[KyrtF]

TLDR: You cant make the perfect omelet without breaking some eggs along the way.

Kids who never steped into a kitchen see some broken eggs and cry "incompetent"

A project manager who consistently underestimates the time and resources necessary to meet project milestones, who continually overshoots these milestones by months and whose failure to perform even the most basic and simplest of tasks costs his company millions of YOUR money and wasted years of development is...by any definition...incompetent.

Hes a great salesman...but his incompetence as a project manager is still driving this project into the ground.

[Aoewy]

Think it would be for the best of everybody if you just ignore MrAnderson, cause this is going no where. He's just like EvcRo, just on the other side of the fence.

[MrAnderson]

Meanwhile your last couple of posts consist on calling people ignorant, kids, liars, dumb, bullshiters, trolls and whatnot over and over… I may be out of the loop, but this much I can tell you, with that kind of behavior you are losing any ground you may have to stand on.

Also, if it was that “easy” to call out their “bullshit” you would simply do it instead of lashing out on them with petty insults while claiming to have nothing further to “discuss” with them…



Oh lord… that was just cringeworthy.

It's the only valuable aproach. You dont try to reason or argue with infants about complex issues because they simply lack the brain development to acomodate all the inputs.

Same here. All I have to do is point how wrong they are and time does the rest.

CIG and Star Citizen development will keep on going without a problem. This year. The next one. And the next one. And so on and on and on.

What will the haters say about that? They will spin more "concern" with no leg to stand on.

Sure it makes Star Citizen threads and articles an ongoing festivity but it changes nothing in the course of the game aka its useless and a waste of time.

[Majestic12]

It's the only valuable aproach. You dont try to reason or argue with infants about complex issues because they simply lack the brain development to acomodate all the inputs.

Same here. All I have to do is point how wrong they are and time does the rest.

CIG and Star Citizen development will keep on going without a problem. This year. The next one. And the next one. And so on and on and on.

What will the haters say about that? They will spin more "concern" with no leg to stand on.

Sure it makes Star Citizen threads and articles an ongoing festivity but it changes nothing in the course of the game aka its useless and a waste of time.

I'm pretty sure it's time for you to make a new account(again) so that you can start from scratch. Nobody is taking you seriously anymore and you've done that all by yourself with your raging. You're a full on hypocrite, by the way.

You should return when you're ready to actually discuss something. It's a waste of time to ask you anything because you're not going to answer or discuss specifics, you're just here to talk shit(which explains the burner account).

if you really, really believed what you were saying you wouldn't post here at all. You'd just leave it be. I think you're just scared and manifests it through anger directed at others, and it's showing really well.

[KyrtF]

It's the only valuable aproach. You dont try to reason or argue with infants about complex issues because they simply lack the brain development to acomodate all the inputs.

This is exactly the sort of toxic behaviour which is poisoning the Star Citizen community. This is doing more harm than a score of Derek Smarts.

When faced with criticism, the only reason ANYONE has to engage in such behaviour, in resorting to petty insults and childish tantrums, is because they know...without doubt...that they have no rationale counter argument.

There is no excuse for Chris Roberts incompetence as a project manager for example. As good a salesman as he is, he has no business running this project. Because of his incompetence, the project is years behind schedule and millions...tens of millions actually...overbudget.

Years of work have had to be scrapped because of his incompetence. For example...he should never have engaged any third party until the core engine was complete. He knew he would need to modify whatever engine he chose...but he still went ahead and hired third party developers and then did not tell them they would be developing a game for the still under construction StarEngine as opposed to CryEngine.

What sort of project manager hires third party developers to create game modules for CryEngine...but develops the game under Star Engine without telling them?

An incompetent one.

You can't rationalise away incompetence of that level. That's a special kind of incompetence. And it is not the only example of where Chris Roberts has messed up.

But trying to insult the people who point this out isn't going to change that. Nor will it make Star Citizens development process 'normal'. SC is having a lot of problems right now BECAUSE Chris Roberts is ignoring best practise...his way of creating a game is wasting time and money and causing CIG to have to develop the same systems two or three times.

That's a big reason why best practise for the industry is to develop the engine first. So that you can then build a game on a solid foundation. So that the entire team has a common base to work from. So that work can be divided into modules to be worked on individually knowing that they will be compatible because of that common core.

Chris Roberts has created a situation where he has teams working on models which should be added during Beta at the same time as features which should be added during Alpha while still working on huge aspects of the engine and netcode which should be locked down in pre-Alpha.

Yes...you can create a game like that but its going to take a lot longer, its going to take more money and I'd be very surprised if the codebase retains any significant degree of organisation.

Going by some of the bug reports that have been published, they would suggest I wouldn't be too far off the mark.

There is only one reason why experienced developers would steer away from best practise...especially when that best practise makes drveloper quicker, easier and cheaper for THEM.

Noone but noone goes out of their way to make life more difficult and frustrating.

And that one reason is...."Boss says to do it this way".

I can't think of even one developer outside CIG who has anything good to say about Chris Roberts management. Not one. Studiously neutral at best or openly hostile. Even some of CIGs own developers haven't spoken up for their development. Some of the most respected and successful developers ever have commented and done so negatively.

I haven't done programming for quite some time. I'm in the network side of things now. But industry best practise exists for a reason. It cuts costs, time and makes things a lot easier for the programming teams involved. And software development can be frustrating enough without going out of your way to make it more difficult.

So...yes. Chris Roberts history as a project manager, going back to Digital Anvil and before, is one of incompetence and failure. His current activities at CIG and Star Citizen provides further proof.

He's got a great vision and has proven himself a salesman. But he's incompetent at running a project.

And calling people who point this out silly names or "hater" won't change this fact.

Star Citizen will continue to make progress....but it would be far slower, far more expensive and far buggier than would occur if a competent manager was running the show.

The only question is if CIG will run out of cash before it finishes the game. A $40-$50 million buffer which CIG likely has isn't going to be enough to cover all the costs to publication....unless CIG reduces its content and/or features. If the estimate of a $3 million burn rate per month is accurate (and that is a LOW estimate) CIGs buffer will be reduced to about $25 million in the three years (minimum) it will take to finish the game. That'll be barely enough for a marketing campaign never mind publishing or hosting the game.

[MrAnderson]

Until Star Citizen keeps on going you guys are losing. Your arguments are nothing more than pie in the sky wishes and until you can show a better game than the one Star Citizen team is building you are left with moot points.

And no, ED, NMS, EvE, SWTOR or whatever you make up are clearly not on the same league if they were you would be playing them and supporting them instead of bringing Star Citizen up into discussion time and time again.

Keep on hating, keep on failing. Another year another "concerned" crowd eating crow grasping for straws.

Whille you keep getting busy asking "how" we keep testing and asking "why not".

Enjoy the darkness while we play-test the stars.