Holy mother 10man nerf

[HardCoder]

When nearly 40% of the guilds that have downed the first boss in the raid haven't downed the second, after weeks, that's a problem. You can't very well gear up with one boss on farm. And you can't gear up effectively from LFR and the previous tier, because after 5 weeks or whatever, guilds who were stuck on Horridon were probably as geared as they could be from those sources.

Some people just aren't as good at doing several complicated things at once. Or find it un-fun to work really hard at it.

It's also pretty time-consuming to cap VP especially if you are doing LFR runs as DPS as part of that.

Back in Cata I had no trouble valor capping 2-3 toons a week. I rarely cap valor on any toon nowadays.

[Dukenukem]

The game has evolved from the time where Blizzard themselves accepted that their raiding model was not a good one.

And yet they used it again. only this time there is more options than Badge gear, they are listed a few posts back and there is ton of them. This model promotes the true virtues of gaming like self education and dedication to goal, those seemed to vanish in moder games where all things are possible even without a thought what im actually doing and still get to the end.

This model is easyer to master than it seems, you just need a bit more planning or time (which ever you prefer) to get what you want/need.

For those against T14 farming...you didnt saw all the content and you want to jump to the fresh one? Dont complain when you hit the wall early, what is wall for you maybe a little hurdle for those who actually completed previous Tier. I know people progressing T14 now when they can ger past 4/6 MV and having good time killing bosses "How they are supposed to be killed".

When nearly 40% of the guilds that have downed the first boss in the raid haven't downed the second, after weeks, that's a problem. You can't very well gear up with one boss on farm. And you can't gear up effectively from LFR and the previous tier, because after 5 weeks or whatever, guilds who were stuck on Horridon were probably as geared as they could be from those sources.

If you would have 496 average before from all sources than 2 pieces 522 will get you to ilvl of 499,7 and assuming you could be unlucky in T14 can be countered by the 5 weeks of ToT LFR. You really would be super unlucky with 42 bags of gold (15+12+6+9)

[Crashdummy]

This is where alot of opinions differ, I think it has devolved and MoP has so far been a step in the right direction.

Well, we will se. I think WotLK was th best expansion ever made, by far, and sub numbers support my claim.

MoP has lost as many subs as cata in the first quarter, and i think we can all agree that Cataclysm was a complete failure.

I think MoP so far has been a step in the wrong direction, the special snowflakes direction, and Blizzard needs to understand that WoW became the bext MMO by being the most CASUAL FRIENDLY mmo, while the MMOs catered for the hardcore special snowflakes like Uo, EQ and DAoC were destroyed.

I think designing your game for the top 10% of players is a BIG, VERY BIG mistake.

[Delhunt]

What is the point of this thread? If the nerf makes things easy for you and your guild, clear the damm thing and go to Heroics instead of coming here and crying yourself to sleep.

[Crashdummy]

And yet they used it again. only this time there is more options than Badge gear, they are listed a few posts back and there is ton of them. This model promotes the true virtues of gaming like self education and dedication to goal, those seemed to vanish in moder games where all things are possible even without a thought what im actually doing and still get to the end.

This model is easyer to master than it seems, you just need a bit more planning or time (which ever you prefer) to get what you want/need.

For those against T14 farming...you didnt saw all the content and you want to jump to the fresh one? Dont complain when you hit the wall early, what is wall for you maybe a little hurdle for those who actually completed previous Tier. I know people progressing T14 now when they can ger past 4/6 MV and having good time killing bosses "How they are supposed to be killed".



If you would have 496 average before from all sources than 2 pieces 522 will get you to ilvl of 499,7 and assuming you could be unlucky in T14 can be countered by the 5 weeks of ToT LFR. You really would be super unlucky with 42 bags of gold (15+12+6+9)

Yes, they used it again, and they introduced long grinds again, and they have lost as many subs as cataclysm, an expansio with little amount of content and low quality content which is called by the mayority as a failure.

The model is not easier to master than i think, the model iss a model that excludes the mayority of the players form content that SHOULD be aimed to them (because NORMAL raids SHOULD BE AIMED TO NORMAL RAIDERS and not to heroic raiders) only to please the top elite % of players that are a minority and wont even play that content much because they will be playing the content made for them.

The fact that only 25% of guilds attempting to raid completed Normal T14 (and most of those 25% are in fact heroic guilds) says a lot about how bad designed the tier was.

I am not against t14 farming, i am against Blizzard tuning NOrmal raids for Heroic raiders and leaving Normal raiders without being able to finish the tier in the difficulty aimed for them.

[HardCoder]

For those against T14 farming...you didnt saw all the content and you want to jump to the fresh one? Dont complain when you hit the wall early, what is wall for you maybe a little hurdle for those who actually completed previous Tier. I know people progressing T14 now when they can ger past 4/6 MV and having good time killing bosses "How they are supposed to be killed".

Nobody wants to farm old content in order to be able to play the content.

Nobody, no matter how skilled or clueless wants to have to play the old content to get to the new content. Especially if it's a group that has been TRYING to farm through the old content and failing for months, and now they have to keep doing the same old shit just to get to the new content ...?

I understand how someone could think "any bit of content is as good as any other bit, so what does it matter if you're not getting to do the new content." But that's like saying "last year's music is just as good as this year's music, why do you need to listen to the same music that the cool people are listening to?" If you don't get why that's a problem for people then you don't understand much about entertainment.

[Haxlax]

Guys guys guys, Garalon normal is overtuned... just like Horridon normal.

[Sesshou]

When nearly 40% of the guilds that have downed the first boss in the raid haven't downed the second, after weeks, that's a problem. You can't very well gear up with one boss on farm. And you can't gear up effectively from LFR and the previous tier, because after 5 weeks or whatever, guilds who were stuck on Horridon were probably as geared as they could be from those sources.

Thats a crap argument. The first boss was intentionally undertuned. Blizzard specifically said they want basically everyone to be able to go in there and at least get that.

They also clearly do not intend you to skip tiers this expansion. The only way you need to "gear up" for Horridon is if you didn't really do t14 so go do it. You wouldn't try to fight a level 90 mob at 85 and then complain that it was hard would you? Its the same thing only replace char level with ilvl. 496 is easily enough after the first nerf to Horridon and Council (honestly 490 was easily enough even before the first nerf if you knew what you were doing) and if by now with a couple of 522 valor items and 3-4 weeks of LFR you don't have a 496 ilvl, then you clearly didn't really do t14.

[Osmeric]

MoP has lost as many subs as cata in the first quarter

This isn't really true. Remember, Cataclysm released in two stages (non-China, then China six months later), and lost a chunk in each market when it was released. The total loss it had in the quarter after release was something like 1.1M.

MoP released in the west and China near simultaneously, and lost less than half that.

[HardCoder]

Thats a crap argument. The first boss was intentionally undertuned. Blizzard specifically said they want basically everyone to be able to go in there and at least get that.

They also clearly do not intend you to skip tiers this expansion.

They're going to view this as a mistake, if they don't already.

Blizzard returned to a model where you can't get quickly into the current tier because a small but vocal bunch of whiners on battle.net complained that catch-up "invalidated" their play. GC even used the "invalidated" word. Maybe he was just tired of the hate mail. He KNOWS it's the wrong decision, because he has been defensive about it from day one.

But it's a failed model. It's no fun, and when you provide workarounds like gobs of coins from treasure runs, it just looks even more stupid.

[Crashdummy]

This isn't really true. Remember, Cataclysm released in two stages (non-China, then China six months later), and lost a chunk in each market when it was released. The total loss it had in the quarter after release was something like 1.1M.

MoP released in the west and China near simultaneously, and lost less than half that.

We cant know how much would have loss if they launched simultaneously.

We have to take the numbers we have. And according to those numbers, MoP lost as many as Cata in the first quarter. We are close to the next, so we will see if the trends continuous, but based on Blizzard making things more accesible, i think they are not doing great.

If only they would have made MoP accesible from the scratch, like WotLK was...

---------- Post added 2013-04-11 at 10:15 PM ----------

Thats a crap argument. The first boss was intentionally undertuned. Blizzard specifically said they want basically everyone to be able to go in there and at least get that.

They also clearly do not intend you to skip tiers this expansion. The only way you need to "gear up" for Horridon is if you didn't really do t14 so go do it. You wouldn't try to fight a level 90 mob at 85 and then complain that it was hard would you? Its the same thing only replace char level with ilvl. 496 is easily enough after the first nerf to Horridon and Council (honestly 490 was easily enough even before the first nerf if you knew what you were doing) and if by now with a couple of 522 valor items and 3-4 weeks of LFR you don't have a 496 ilvl, then you clearly didn't really do t14.

Blizzard will be remembered as why "not skipping any tier in the whole expansion" was such a bad idea that they had to change it in the very same TBC.

Hopefully they will understand after they realized the mistake they did why Wrath model worked so much better and they will understand that the problem with Cataclysm was NOT catch up dungeons or tabards.

[Amonthar]

We have two groups that raid 10 man. The first group is 9/12 and the second is 1/12. I am in the second group as a tank. The second group is more laid back (raid two days a week), but Horridon is just bad for a second boss. I am to a point that I may just stop raiding this tier entirely due to random deaths from so much crap on the ground. I don't get it. I avoid everything while tanking and so does the other tank but crap just happens.

My dbm shows 78 wipes.

Other changes that should have been made would be for less crap to be spewed on the ground and more time between door openings.

As someone else stated, I am not going back to last tier to get gear, which is not needed at this point, to kill the second boss of the current tier. I have never had to do that, and I will not start now.

I don't raid heroics anymore. If I did, I would change servers and go elsewhere. I have a Druid tank and destruction warlock. I know how to read strats, watch videos and execute the strat on my part.

[Deleted]

People like Eiffeltower just want to feel like special snowflakes because THEY killed Horridon and don't anyone else to kill him because it would devalue their kill

[HardCoder]

People like Eiffeltower just want to feel like special snowflakes because THEY killed Horridon and don't anyone else to kill him because it would devalue their kill

The fact that GC and other design leadership have decided to take this type of reasoning seriously, and orient the game around it, is most of what's wrong with MoP.

Blizzard has created normal mode tiers that require a level of skill that, demonstrably, many guilds attempting to clear the raids can't achieve. When you're talking about one person not being able to do something, it's appropriate to think that skill is maybe an issue. But when you are talking about large numbers of people, a significant percentage of the player population of a hugely popular game, then you have a different situation. You have many of your players unable to play your game. That is a design problem, not a player problem.

I think that with "Dungeons are Hard" GC expected that players would get "better" at playing. But he was just wrong. Players are who they are. You can't make them better players by changing the game. It's like he is a woman dating a guy who likes to drink beer and watch TV, and thinks that because she gives him the Economist to read he's going to become a smart guy who takes her to the opera.

[Glorious Leader]

And yet they used it again. only this time there is more options than Badge gear, they are listed a few posts back and there is ton of them.

and with all those options you know what people have opted for? They've opted to run from the classic tbc model as fast as they fucking can. They buy pvp gear with their justice points to circumvent as much of it as they can. They take every possible option except the classic tbc one of actually having to painstakingly run old raids just to get up to the point to run the new stuff and when they do get to the point where they can run the new stuff they don't bother with normals anymore. They just run lfr.

This SHOULD tell us that all the revisionist historians who kept insisting for years that tiered raiding was good and if you brought it back it would make the game so much better and everyone would lap it up were dead fucking wrong and should have been ignored. People run screaming from that model given every opportunity and would do anything and everything apparently to circumvent it given the option. Like the austerity maniacs in europe, their ideas have been proven wrong both in theory and practice yet it won't fucking die.

---------- Post added 2013-04-12 at 02:24 AM ----------

The fact that GC and other design leadership have decided to take this type of reasoning seriously, and orient the game around it, is most of what's wrong with MoP.

It is precisely the crux of the issue with MoP. The orientation of the game to the people who not only consume it the most but are the most feverent and dedicated to playing it and the most opposed to any change or moderation that would HELP the majority of the players. Why in gods name would you gear the game to people who pay the same 15 bucks but are a much smaller minority of the player base and will just leave when you do ANYTHING to make it better for the majority? Somebody is fucking HIGH at Blizzard let me tell you.

[Deleted]

I'm sorry but for the people whining that they 'HAVE' to run t14 to get gear to get past the first few bosses in throne, where the hell were you when t14 was current content? If you have been raiding normal mode since 5.1 onward you should easily have 495+ ilvl (valor gear+loot from raids) and in the past 5 weeks of ToT you should have been able to pick up minimum of 3 522 valor items (neck ring bracers at 1250 each) meaning even if you don't have any luck in lfr you should be pushing 500 ilvl, in that gear if your raid team cant down horridon PRE NERF then there is 1 or more people in your raid that are holding you back. It's not rocket science, if someone cant avoid standing in shit/pick up aggro/heal and dispel/INTERRUPT VENOMANCERS then they are causing unnecessary wipes.

As for the people who started raiding later I have 2 words for you, man up. Everyone else who wants some progress in ToT had to raid t14 first so why shouldn't you? t14 is nerfed to the ground but for late starters to MoP raiding its still going to provide a starting point to gear up and with t14 bonus coins being easy to cap and having an increased drop chance it will be much faster to gear up than it was for everyone else.

I'm not saying this to come across as an elitist or brag about how good I am, I'm only 9/12 normal and I don't consider myself to be a 'hardcore' raider or even a competent one most of the time but there seems to be such an instant gratification culture with raiding in wow now a days its ridiculous. If you want the new shinies you have to earn them not just expect bosses to roll over and throw purple pixels your way if you are undergeared or there are members of your raid team not pulling their weight

[Deleted]

Let me tell you something. At the end of 5.1 most normal mode raiders had ilvl 490-495. In some cases 489 from MSV was better than 496 from HoF/ToES because of gem slots/secondary stats. Item upgrade was also so expensive that not every item could be upgraded to 504 and it doesn't even exist anymore. Even now when everyone has 505-510 Horridon can still be hard if someone has L2P issues. What about the people who are stuck in a shit guild but can't just gquit because they have nowhere else to go?

[Deleted]

Let me tell you something. At the end of 5.1 most normal mode raiders had ilvl 490-495. In some cases 489 from MSV was better than 496 from HoF/ToES because of gem slots/secondary stats. Item upgrade was also so expensive that not every item could be upgraded to 504 and it doesn't even exist anymore. Even now when everyone has 505-510 Horridon can still be hard if someone has L2P issues. What about the people who are stuck in a shit guild but can't just gquit because they have nowhere else to go?

If it's one person in the guild fucking up consistently maybe try to help them? see where they are going wrong, and see what can be done to improve. If it's a whole guild that's fucking up and you think you are being held back by them then look for another guild? If you can't/don't want to leave the guild then either accept that you won't get as much progress as you think you are capable of or take over raid leading and look into how you can help everyone who is fucking up.

Raid leaders should be keeping an eye on who is making mistakes constantly and either helping them out, asking them what they are struggling with or start to find a replacement. (obviously the route of helping each other to work through what you are finding hard should be the first option but as i said before 'instant gratification culture' often leads to people being replaced rather than working with them to progress)

[Glorious Leader]

.

I'm not saying this to come across as an elitist or brag about how good I am, I'm only 9/12 normal and I don't consider myself to be a 'hardcore' raider or even a competent one most of the time but there seems to be such an instant gratification culture with raiding in wow now a days its ridiculous. If you want the new shinies you have to earn them not just expect bosses to roll over and throw purple pixels your way if you are undergeared or there are members of your raid team not pulling their weight

And those people who wren't pulling their weight where people have been raiding for years and have been raiding NORMALS that's right NORMALS for years and don't cut it with this tier because this tier is fucking retarded. But okay man keep telling people this because you know what they said by and large to this? They said no fuck you and given the option were going to go do something else. I know you don't mean to come off elitist but the position is EXTREMELY elitist and you've become the 1%.

[Osmeric]

and with all those options you know what people have opted for? They've opted to run from the classic tbc model as fast as they fucking can. They buy pvp gear with their justice points to circumvent as much of it as they can.

Hey! Cheesing with PvP gear was a big part of the BC model.