People always say WoW PvP is bad so what has good PvP?

[Eroginous]

To be fair, WoW isn't hardly the first or worst when it comes to PvP imbalance.

Well, they've been developing the game for 10+ years, they've had dozens of patches and PTRs to work from, they're on their 4th expansion, they've had over 10 million subs, and they've earned over 3 billion in revenue.

If pvp isn't balanced by now, at what point down the road will it be?

There are players who only care about pvp, and patch after patch is like disappointment on Christmas.

[RoninaThorstone]

Well, they've been developing the game for 10+ years, they've had dozens of patches and PTRs to work from, they're on their 4th expansion, they've had over 10 million subs, and they've earned over 3 billion in revenue.

If pvp isn't balanced by now, at what point down the road will it be?

There are players who only care about pvp, and patch after patch is like disappointment on Christmas.

And there have been several patches were you were able to kill other players with a single click of a button.
I mean, in shooters... That's usually only as a sniper and that's usually pretty hard. It's not like you have to aim in WoW.

[Rennadrel]

To be fair, WoW isn't hardly the first or worst when it comes to PvP imbalance.

And yet, we constantly hear the bitching and complaining that WoW PvP is imbalanced, so clearly it has it's problems. The problem stems from the fact that gear > skill and class > skill. Skill is meaningless, because all you have to do to win in WoW PvP is roll the FOTM overpowered class and you will win. Sure, people will cry because their class sucks, but in a game that doesn't require aiming of any sort, it's hard to say you are more skilled then someone else. Play a purely PvP oriented online game like MechWarrior Online and you will understand why skill is more important in true PvP games. It doesn't take skill to headshot someone in most FPS games (though it's very difficult to do in MWO), but it takes skill to go against another player one on one when things like weapons loadout, heat efficiency, armor, speed and accuracy are all put into account. I can go one on one with assault Mech's in a light or a medium and win, because it's all about precise aim and managing your shots correctly. MMORPG's don't even have close to what I would consider real PvP because there are far too many variables on the development side that can either make or break you. In MWO, everyone has access to the same weapons and Mech's (some cost money though) so long as you work to obtain them. Whether or not you can defeat enemies is all a matter of skill, precision and timing, there is no RNG of things like crit which can burst away massive amounts of your armor, if you see what your enemy is packing, you either run for it out or work to find their weaknesses as a player and beat them down without getting killed. If you know the game well enough, you can exploit enemy weaknesses, whether they be snipers, brawlers, missile support, etc.

[dacoolist]

And yet, we constantly hear the bitching and complaining that WoW PvP is imbalanced, so clearly it has it's problems. The problem stems from the fact that gear > skill and class > skill. Skill is meaningless, because all you have to do to win in WoW PvP is roll the FOTM overpowered class and you will win. Sure, people will cry because their class sucks, but in a game that doesn't require aiming of any sort, it's hard to say you are more skilled then someone else. Play a purely PvP oriented online game like MechWarrior Online and you will understand why skill is more important in true PvP games. It doesn't take skill to headshot someone in most FPS games (though it's very difficult to do in MWO), but it takes skill to go against another player one on one when things like weapons loadout, heat efficiency, armor, speed and accuracy are all put into account. I can go one on one with assault Mech's in a light or a medium and win, because it's all about precise aim and managing your shots correctly. MMORPG's don't even have close to what I would consider real PvP because there are far too many variables on the development side that can either make or break you. In MWO, everyone has access to the same weapons and Mech's (some cost money though) so long as you work to obtain them. Whether or not you can defeat enemies is all a matter of skill, precision and timing, there is no RNG of things like crit which can burst away massive amounts of your armor, if you see what your enemy is packing, you either run for it out or work to find their weaknesses as a player and beat them down without getting killed. If you know the game well enough, you can exploit enemy weaknesses, whether they be snipers, brawlers, missile support, etc.

- I think what you're saying is really Solid. Wow DOES have a lot to work on with PVP, but I believe Blizzard IS TRYING it's damnedest to try to balance it out (the HUGE changes MID SEASON for 5.3)

- Also, Wow isn't ANYTHING like MWO though. I play Starsiege, an OLDER Mech game, from: WAY BACK MON'. The thing is, WoW can NEVER have what MWO has. It has so much more skill type of game play in terms of just AIMing, and reaction vs. WOW has more thought about what's GOING to happen in the match/solo fight/etc. As a warrior, I tend to know what's about to happen before I even attempt to jump onto someone in PVP. Since I've been PVP'ing for MULTIPLE years now, I tend to stay away, and go for - certain classes. Just like other games though - you ALWAYS have a counter.

-- To go a little far into ^^ If you don't have a counter to a class in PVP, EVERYONE will roll - THAT CLASS.

--- Blizz Blues with BOSS FONY - Tankspot.com - He had an episode with "Looking into the future" - ran across himself (A FILTHY Rogue I might add..) - and the future himself was a Mage (dressed like a pirate). He asked how long into the future that was, and it was literally a few months ahead.


Again, with a game this old, this in depth. You can't always FIX PVP in one single throw. It takes time.

[RoninaThorstone]

- I think what you're saying is really Solid. Wow DOES have a lot to work on with PVP, but I believe Blizzard IS TRYING it's damnedest to try to balance it out (the HUGE changes MID SEASON for 5.3)Again, with a game this old, this in depth. You can't always FIX PVP in one single throw. It takes time.

Eh... If they wanted to fix pvp they would have delinked it from pve like firefall did. When they were asked to do this they said, "nah. that's too much work" (I'm not joking)

The fact of the matter is FOTM keeps subscription numbers up. If you are chasing the FOTM dragon, you are constantly leveling/gearing a new class every season. Which means you are online, playing, and paying instead of getting bored at level cap.

[Rykin]

Classes actually being different but relatively balanced makes pvp good imo. It doesn't need to be a 100% level playing field, there can be strengths and weakness to each class/spec/character. Wow tried to hard to balance classes which made them all the same while ignoring broken over powered skills and gear like trinkets.

[Feranor]

Eh... If they wanted to fix pvp they would have delinked it from pve like firefall did. When they were asked to do this they said, "nah. that's too much work" (I'm not joking)

They've never been consistent with that. A number of abilities do work differently in PvP (like Colossus Smash being only half as effective, CC being much shorter in duration, Diminishing Returns etc.) but it's never enough; they just can't catch up with PvE. New PvE changes break things faster than they fix the already existing issues.

The fact of the matter is FOTM keeps subscription numbers up. If you are chasing the FOTM dragon, you are constantly leveling/gearing a new class every season. Which means you are online, playing, and paying instead of getting bored at level cap.

They also balance by population, e.g. buffing Rogue and Monk because not enough people are playing them; despite them already being more than viable.

[zed zebes]

The MMO PvP Rankings work like this:

1. Guild Wars
2. Guild Wars 2
3. Who cares

Everything else in the MMO space is hampered by PVE design, gear imbalance, and just a lack of focus on pvp.

Also, organized, high tier WvWvW fights are a lot more tactical and role based than you would realize. If you just hop into GW2's WuvWuv as a pug folowing a zerg, you may not learn the way the battles can really play out. Organized WvWvW has split squads, feigns, frontline/backline/sweepers, called heals, called stuns, area control and all sorts of stuff.

[Rennadrel]

Eh... If they wanted to fix pvp they would have delinked it from pve like firefall did. When they were asked to do this they said, "nah. that's too much work" (I'm not joking)

The fact of the matter is FOTM keeps subscription numbers up. If you are chasing the FOTM dragon, you are constantly leveling/gearing a new class every season. Which means you are online, playing, and paying instead of getting bored at level cap.

Guild Wars 1 had separate PvP when I played it, didn't impact the role playing part of the game at all and allowed you to have the same character with two different types of builds and gear, one actually required you to level up while the other was max level.

[Pokemon1859]

The only remotely fun mmorpg currently that seems to have gotten my attention in terms of pvp is Tera Online keep in mind I used to play wow myself from burning crusade up to cataclysm so its not like I'm talking without ever playing world of warcraft. I will say tera has points that if your more into fast 18 hour leveling wow will be more your style since you'll have to work one way or another whether you quest to level 60 or take the fast way by grinding to 60 either way you will spend atleast 4 days to afew weeks depending on which way you choose leveling up. And content is slow its a korean publisher but if you like the more interactive like if you miss you miss kind of combat where aiming and learning how to play your class will seprate you from people that suck from the really good players thats just what tera is like. The upcoming alliance patch will only improve pvp and open faction based PvP city battles against the three main city factions. No race based restrictions so battles don't feel one sided or like they are unbalanced like wows 1 horde to every 300 alliance players.

[Sj]

And yet, we constantly hear the bitching and complaining that WoW PvP is imbalanced, so clearly it has it's problems. The problem stems from the fact that gear > skill and class > skill. Skill is meaningless, because all you have to do to win in WoW PvP is roll the FOTM overpowered class and you will win. Sure, people will cry because their class sucks, but in a game that doesn't require aiming of any sort, it's hard to say you are more skilled then someone else. Play a purely PvP oriented online game like MechWarrior Online and you will understand why skill is more important in true PvP games. It doesn't take skill to headshot someone in most FPS games (though it's very difficult to do in MWO), but it takes skill to go against another player one on one when things like weapons loadout, heat efficiency, armor, speed and accuracy are all put into account. I can go one on one with assault Mech's in a light or a medium and win, because it's all about precise aim and managing your shots correctly. MMORPG's don't even have close to what I would consider real PvP because there are far too many variables on the development side that can either make or break you. In MWO, everyone has access to the same weapons and Mech's (some cost money though) so long as you work to obtain them. Whether or not you can defeat enemies is all a matter of skill, precision and timing, there is no RNG of things like crit which can burst away massive amounts of your armor, if you see what your enemy is packing, you either run for it out or work to find their weaknesses as a player and beat them down without getting killed. If you know the game well enough, you can exploit enemy weaknesses, whether they be snipers, brawlers, missile support, etc.

I wasn't saying WoW wasn't imbalanced, it's just merely the most popular MMO with PvP in it. Blizzard has been throwing band-aids and bad ideas at WoW's PvP since the game first came out. Personally, I feel the main issues are too much CC and too much burst (healing and damage). Besides needing a raid group to kill a SL/SL warlock or a resto druid, TBC's damage and healing output felt pretty good. Part of the balancing problem could be that there is a ton of spells for each class. It's hard to say, with so many variables.

[Shadowspire]

I'm not sure about battleground pvp but I always liked dcuo set up for pvp..everything seemed just about balance and most things seemed based you not the gear or class(minus gadget)...but that was like a year ago so idk how it is anymore,

[Kalyyn]

I wasn't saying WoW wasn't imbalanced, it's just merely the most popular MMO with PvP in it. Blizzard has been throwing band-aids and bad ideas at WoW's PvP since the game first came out. Personally, I feel the main issues are too much CC and too much burst (healing and damage). Besides needing a raid group to kill a SL/SL warlock or a resto druid, TBC's damage and healing output felt pretty good. Part of the balancing problem could be that there is a ton of spells for each class. It's hard to say, with so many variables.

My favorite part of WoW pvp design was how Blizzard would alternate between making a class obscenely broken and then nerfing it to being completely useless (paladins and death knights usually) to draw attention away from the fact that Druids and Mages were in a perpetual, several year-long state of being overpowered.

"Hey Ghostcrawler, we were thinking of buffing frost mages again. How do we keep the peasants from rioting?"
"Hrmm... Make elemental shamans more powerful than a raid boss for about a week, then completely destroy them. Nobody will even notice the mage buff."

[Feranor]

My favorite part of WoW pvp design was how Blizzard would alternate between making a class obscenely broken and then nerfing it to being completely useless (paladins and death knights usually) to draw attention away from the fact that Druids and Mages were in a perpetual, several year-long state of being overpowered.

"Hey Ghostcrawler, we were thinking of buffing frost mages again. How do we keep the peasants from rioting?"
"Hrmm... Make elemental shamans more powerful than a raid boss for about a week, then completely destroy them. Nobody will even notice the mage buff."

Wat.

Druid has been the most roller coaster class of all:

Vanilla:

• Balance completely useless beyond 9-11 points in the tree
• Feral broken until 1.7 (?)
• Resto only viable as a dueling class

TBC:

• Balance underpowered but playable
• Feral viable for a couple of weeks, then nerfed to oblivion
• Resto overpowered in 2v2 (but nowhere else), nothing but nerf after nerf for the rest of the expansion as a result

WotLK:

• Balance broken, mostly thanks to Eclipse and the TBC nerfs to Resto
• Feral very balanced and the most enjoyable class for World PvP and Battleground skirmishes
• Resto still suffering from unnecessary TBC nerfs

Catacylsm:

• Balance still broken outside of tab-dotting in RBG
• Feral overpowered at the start thanks to a Mastery bug, then completely destroyed by the Shapeshifting nerf
• Resto now fully turned into a PvE only spec

MoP:

• Balance still broken
• Feral now turned into a boring cooldown dumping class
• Resto viable again

I think you meant to say Mage and Rogue?