3.3 Poison Changes FAQ

[Javanface]

3.3 Poison Changes and You.

The combat part of this FAQ is a little slim, contributions would be appreciated.

There seems to be a bit of confusion about how the changes to Deadly Poison affects different specs. Therefore I'm going to try to Iron things out for anyone who is interested.

As always, these are general guidelines. For specific information about what to do with your own rogue, please consult a spreadsheet.

Up to date spreadsheets can be found here:

http://elitistjerks.com/f78/t39136-c...updated_3_3_a/

(Thanks Moll)

Note that these sheets are likely not easy to manipulate or input your own gear setup into as they are beta sheets to explore the new mechanics.

Changes in 3.3 are as follows:

Rogue
Asssassination

• Improved Poisons now increases the chance to apply Deadly poison to your target by 4/8/12/16/20%. (Up from 2/4/6/8/10%)

Poisons

• Deadly Poison now has an additional effect - Once stacked to 5 times, each application of Deadly Poison also causes the poison on the Rogue's other weapon to apply.

Common Mutilate Questions:

"I've seen the phrase 'crit cap' mentioned quite alot lately, what's that all about?"

Essentially it means the point where more crit will only affect your specials and not your white hits. It is explained quite well together with armor pen in this article:
http://www.wow.com/2009/11/11/encryp...p-demystified/

"Will I spec the same in 3.3?"

No, 51/18/2 will be the spec of choice for mutilate rogues.
We choose to go deeper into the combat tree to gain the extra 10% haste since mutilate becomes even more about improving poison application rates. By the same reasoning we forego Opportunity in favor of 2/5 Relentless Strikes since extra energy converted into combo points and eventually envenom buff uptime increases our total dps more than 20% extra damage on mutilate alone.

"How will I gem my gear in 3.3?

The easy answer is to spreadsheet it. But as a general rule we seem to be leaning towards gemming AP in red sockets, and AP/Haste in yellow sockets.

Once we are nearing full 264 ilvl gear we will likely be struggling to stay below our individual crit caps while raid buffed. This is one reason why we don't gem agi and agi/haste. The other is that Agility doesn't affect the poison crit chance and as such, an AP gem will have a higher EP value than an Agi gem.

"Will this make us want to use Deadly Poison on the Main Hand weapon and Instant Poison on the Off Hand weapon?"

No, mutilate specced rogues will still use IP on the MH, DP on the OH.
This is because IP works on a PPM basis, i.e. it has a higher proc chance per hit on slower weapons, making it proc more off of special moves, and because DP still has a static 30% proc chance, now 50% fully talented (up from 40%).
Essentially, with 5/5 Imp. Poisons the proc chances will look something like this:
DP 1.8 MH: 50%
IP 1.4 OH: 30%

IP 1.8 MH: 38.57%
DP 1.4 OH: 50%

With 5/5 Imp. Poisons and Envenom buff active:
DP 1.8 MH: 65%
IP 1.4 OH: 52.5%

IP 1.8 MH: 67.5%
DP 1.4 OH: 65%

Since mutilate will hit with both weapons, the only move that will show a dps increase from having DP on the MH, IP on the OH is Envenom unless you are "clipping" i.e. hitting envenom with roughly <.8 seconds left on the Envenom buff, in which case IP has a higher proc chance on its own.

"Will I use rupture in my mutilate rotation in 3.3?"

No, envenom-only cycles pull ahead because of the 15% extra chance to proc DP during the envenom buff translating into an extra 15% to proc IP once a stack of 5 is on the target.

"If I'm not using rupture, what glyph will I use in my 3rd slot?"

Use either the TotT or the FoK glyph depending on your play style and the fight. With two or more rogues in the raid with the t10 2-set bonus, tricksing each other on cooldown, I imagine TotT will be the glyph of choice however.

Common Combat Questions:

"Will combat rogues use Wound Poison or Instant Poison on the Main Hand weapon?"

IP overtakes WP (in most cases) when you have over 3000 AP and an OH that is 1.6 speed or faster.

"How will I spec in 3.3?"

The best combat spec will most likely be something like 20/51/0 so you will be using IP for combat anyway.
This is because, with the added buff, improved poisons will ensure deadly poison does not drop off your target anymore, and will get back to full faster. Also, Poisons will become a larger portion of your total damage, hence vile poisons 7% poison damage will do more than lethality 6% which would only affect your sinister strike. (credit to bbr for thinking of this).

There are other specs that are considered competitive if not better than the poison spec in 3.3, but both require fairly specific gear to be effective.
One is Hard Cap ArP (HArP) meaning you want to cap your ArP from gear alone by using maces for the 15% ArP from speccing into Mace Specialization 18/51/2.
The other is Soft Cap ArP (SArP) meaning you spec for Hack and Slash 18/51/2 and get an ArP proc trinket as well as gear up to [ArP rating = (1400 - proc)].

In other words it is still unclear as to what will be the best spec with a normal BiS setup, but you can't go wrong with either of the three as long as you gear specifically for them.

"How will I gem my gear in 3.3?"

This will largely depend on how you spec. Consult a spreadsheet for the optimal spec + gems for your gear to get the best results. If you can't be bothered, here are some general guidelines.

20/51/0
For this spec you'll want to cap poison hit first. If that means gemming for it, then do so. After that gem for AP in red/blue sockets, and AP/Haste for yellow sockets if that means getting a socket bonus.

For the HArP build, you'll likely be gemming ArP full stop.

For the SArP build, if you don't need to gem for ArP, spreadsheet it to see whether Agi, AP or Haste comes out on top.

"What about glyphs?"

For a 3.3 ruptureless build, There is no real change to how you would have glyphed in 3.2. Depending on the target's dps, it may be worth picking up the TotT glyph once you get your 2-set t10 however, since you will want to start (or continue) to use it every cd to take full advantage of the set bonus. 4 extra seconds of threat redirection also has the obvious benefits should there be any issues with tank threat in ICC.

"I've seen the phrase 'crit cap' mentioned quite alot lately, what's that all about?"

Covered in the mutilate part above, read about it there.

"Can a shived DP at 5 stacks proc an IP crit? If so, is a shiv rotation viable?"

No, and no respectively.
Shiv cannot crit and neither can the poison that is a guaranteed proc off the shiv. The MH poison proc from the DP stack + new DP application can't be a crit either as it is subject to the non-crit rule of shiv.

Disclaimers etc
If I have forgotten anything, gotten anything wrong (it's 1:30 am here atm) please don't hesitate to correct me. This isn't my own work, but rather the work of some fine gentlemen/ladies over at Elitist Jerks. This is just my attempt at a compilation.

[bbr]

Combat.
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#fhe00pLZMgVo0cxqru0xRt

With the added buff, improved poisons will ensure deadly poison does not drop off your target anymore, and will get back to full faster.

Poisons will become a larger portion of your total damage, hence vile poisons 7% poison damage will do more than lethality 6% which would only affect your sinister strike.

Relentless strikes (since the nerf) has been good, but always somewhat borderline since having been changed to a 5/5 talent instead of 1/1.
Improved poisons > relentless basically.

Once your Deadly poison has a 100% uptime, improved poisons is only good for increasing the application chance of your instant poison. e.g. 2% per point.
10% more instant poison, or 7% more damage for all your poisons. I'd say get vile poisons stacked higher like this: http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#fhe00jbZMgVo0cxqru0xRt and test the difference between the other spec linked above.
Or even http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#f0eb0ebZMgVo0cxqru0xRt if your Arp is still very low, and/or you're not using maces.
If you're high on hit chance, it's likely you'll get more damage output on longer non mobile fights.

Due to poisons becoming a larger influence on out total damage, armor penetration will decrease in value, and while agility, haste and AP will increase.
I don't see any mention of "that" on the EJ forum yet, they want everything about everything in 4-5 threads, it's very poor for finding back information....

[Javanface]

Thanks for your input Bbr. I will add some of this in as it's own section in a bit.

For the specs, 1/3, 4/5 has been deemed "optimal" at EJ for now I believe. As for Imp. Poisons usefulness, once DP has a 100% uptime, both the 40% increased frequency on IP and the 8%(to be 16%) higher proc chance on DP both increase the number of IP procs.

I believe the reason they aren't discounting ArP yet is because both a soft-cap arp and even more so a hard-cap arp gear setup is still very much viable and competitive with poison-specced combat.

EJ is indeed quite poor for finding the exact snippet of information that you need. Especially since it's all spread out over various threads. It is an excellent discussion board if one can be bothered to read through it all though.

[Javanface]

added part of bbr's input.

anyone else care to give theirs?

[sabrelime]

Make sure you watch for when Aldrinia's posts her Mut spreadsheet and put it here. Also I'm not exactly when to know when to use mongoose as an enchant or not i can't find specifics at EJ.

[Lugo Moll]

Some mutilate info:

The best spec appears to be 51/18/2 (Yes, RS and not Opportunity in the sub tree.)

Gemming leans towards 40 ap in red sockets and 20 ap/10 haste in yellow.

[Javanface]

Ah yes, I knew I forgot to add something. The reason we take RS over Opportunity is because Mutilate is a relatively small component of our dps come 3.3. The extra energy to spend on getting combo points for finishers is far more valuable. AP + haste to buff poison damage and application rate is also most likely going to be the way to go.

[Javanface]

Make sure you watch for when Aldrinia's posts her Mut spreadsheet and put it here. Also I'm not exactly when to know when to use mongoose as an enchant or not i can't find specifics at EJ.

This has been up for debate for quite some time now and it seems no conclusion has been reached. It is entirely possible that we'll be using mongoose at 277 ilvls, but I won't add it to the post until that has been confirmed.

[Renoxis]

haha! and you all laughed at me for specing combat with imp poisons!

[Javanface]

haha! and you all laughed at me for specing combat with imp poisons!

Well I would have prior to these changes :

[Vonlego]

Something to keep in mind is that current theory craft rates the combat specs

Hard ArP Cap Maces > Poison Build > Standard

This of course assumes all things equal.

[Javanface]

Something to keep in mind is that current theory craft rates the combat specs

Hard ArP Cap Maces > Poison Build > Standard

This of course assumes all things equal.

Ah yes, but I was under the impression that we haven't yet found a main hand mace from 25man? And in all fairness, even if it is very likely that there will be one, HArP maces is only really possible in ilvl 264 gear and above isn't it?. My intention with this particular compilation is to guide people in the transition between 3.2 and 3.3, not necessarily into 3.3 hard modes.

[dekanen]

Two points you need to be aware of.
1) It's very likely 18 51 2 will be superior to 20 51 0 while using gear setups that reach the soft armor penetration cap. Spreadsheet it to be sure what's best.

2) There's alot to be said about using fast/fast as Mutilate in 3.3. Deadly should go on the mainhand in that situation as
DP 1.4 MH: 50% or 65% during Envenom
IP 1.4 OH: 30% or 30%*1.75=52.5% during Envenom
I suggest adding this to the guide.

[Kyrstlol]

Some mutilate info:

The best spec appears to be 51/18/2 (Yes, RS and not Opportunity in the sub tree.)

Gemming leans towards 40 ap in red sockets and 20 ap/10 haste in yellow.

Why Quick Recovery over Fleet Footed? Wouldn't being able to move faster give more dps time?

edit : Another question, sorry. Why is haste so beneficial? I thought poisons were now on a set PPM chance that was independant of weapon speed.
No, I'm not trolling, just new.

[yaij9841]

Why Quick Recovery over Fleet Footed? Wouldn't being able to move faster give more dps time?

edit : Another question, sorry. Why is haste so beneficial? I thought poisons were now on a set PPM chance that was independant of weapon speed.
No, I'm not trolling, just new.

must be smeothing about getting that energy back if the target somehow avoids the finisher.

[Kyrstlol]

must be smeothing about getting that energy back if the target somehow avoids the finisher.

Except, you should be poisons hit capped minimum, expertise capped and behind the target anyway, I don't get it.

[Javanface]

Why Quick Recovery over Fleet Footed? Wouldn't being able to move faster give more dps time?

edit : Another question, sorry. Why is haste so beneficial? I thought poisons were now on a set PPM chance that was independant of weapon speed.
No, I'm not trolling, just new.

QR vs. FF is no easy decision to make. Ideally you should be poison hit and expertise capped, but QR is a passive 20% healing bonus to yourself, which is really amazing on hard modes that have any sort of intense aoe damage component. FF on the other hand can be acquired by enchanting your boots with Cat's Swiftness or Tuskarr's Vitality

Haste is so valuable because IP is on PPM, and DP is still on a 50% talented proc chance.
Essentially the PPM is calculated prior to any added haste, which is why it still affects the number of IP procs within a given period of time. However, it is the change to DP that causes the value of haste to rise dramatically.

[Kyrstlol]

thanks Javan

[Javanface]

Two points you need to be aware of.
1) It's very likely 18 51 2 will be superior to 20 51 0 while using gear setups that reach the soft armor penetration cap. Spreadsheet it to be sure what's best.

2) There's alot to be said about using fast/fast as Mutilate in 3.3. Deadly should go on the mainhand in that situation as
DP 1.4 MH: 50% or 65% during Envenom
IP 1.4 OH: 30% or 30%*1.75=52.5% during Envenom
I suggest adding this to the guide.

I've not seen any discussion about fast/fast yet, so I'll research that a bit before adding it to the guide unless you want to point me in the right direction. The first point about the combat spec is good though, I'll get on that as well. Thank you!

[Foker]

Two points you need to be aware of.
1) It's very likely 18 51 2 will be superior to 20 51 0 while using gear setups that reach the soft armor penetration cap. Spreadsheet it to be sure what's best.

2) There's alot to be said about using fast/fast as Mutilate in 3.3. Deadly should go on the mainhand in that situation as
DP 1.4 MH: 50% or 65% during Envenom
IP 1.4 OH: 30% or 30%*1.75=52.5% during Envenom
I suggest adding this to the guide.

With my Death's choice and runestone combat setup i found I got about 9696 dps with 20/51/0 and about 200 less dps doing any setup into relentless strikes. I think imp poisons is going to be the most important talent even with an arp setup afaik.