RL and Loot

[tibben]

First of all I am a Hunter

I would argue that a Hunter should be allowed to roll for melee weapons. A melee weapon is a bigger upgrade to a Hunter than a ranged weapon is to the other classes. Since obviously the stats from a ranged weapon is alot lower than the stats on melee weapons. However on one-handed weapons the Hunter must have another one already and ofcourse the same rule applies to the melee that wants one-handed weapons also.

There is also another reason why melee shouldn't compete with Hunters on the ranged weapons and that is because there is a Thrown weapon from emblem in each tier which Rogues and Warriors can buy and therefor the ranged weapon drops in the raids aren't that much of an upgrade for them.

If you are claiming that this is somehow a better upgrade for a hunter than a dual wielding melee class then you should probably go find a new game to play that is less difficult to understand. Tetris is pretty easy for the first couple of levels and if you are still struggling with Super Mario Bros. on the NES you can go get an emulator and use save states for those tricky parts.

OT: Your loot system is fine. Main Spec > Off Spec and common sense for determining if someone is full of crap when they roll for something as main spec that is obviously not itemized for them or is an obviously better upgrade for another player that sucks less.

[XenofeiThrice]

As a feral druid, I can't tell you the amount of times I lost Journey's End back in Naxx, and Twin's Pact in ToC to greedy hunters. Had I been losing them to other druids, I would have 0 gripe.

My favorite example was a ToC25 pug late last year. The bow dropped from Jaraxxus, a hunter and a rogue rolled. The hunter cursed at the rogue, hunter ended up getting the bow. Twin's Pact drops later on, I roll against the hunter and he beats me, and I simply say a 2h agi staff should go to a melee DPS over a hunter using a stat stick, the hunter curses at me and gets the staff.

The following is how it should be...any other way is just silly.

2h Weapons: Melee priority, hunters secondary.

Ranged Weaps: Hunter Priority, warrior/rogues second. (With the rare tanking only ranged weap as the exception.)

Good to see some actual decent hunters posting here that would pass on a 2h weap to melee, appreciate it.

[Alexandrra2012]

I don't agree at all actually. For you a melee weapon just a stat-stick, for a melee class, the damage is more important. It's the exact same as warriors / rogues uses ranged weapon as stat-sticks(stat-weapons). And they will probably gain more from it than you would.

The fact that a melee weapon is just a stat-stick is sort of irrelevant. Whether a hunter is using 2 one-handed weapons or 1 two-handed weapon, both lead to a quantifiable proportion to the hunter's theoretical damage output. If upon receiving the item as an upgrade the hunters theoretical max dps would be increased more than a melee class's theoretical damage then it should go to the hunter. I don't think that you can just say "Oh well it's just a stat stick it's not that good for the hunter." Maybe that item would allow them to reach the ArP softcap, or swap other items around and reach the ArP hardcap. Basically what I am saying is, just because it is a melee weapon don't assume that it wouldn't be just as good of an upgrade for a hunter as for a melee dps.

On Topic: OP I think your loot system is fine. One thing I would caution, however, is to be careful who you bring into the raid in the first place. If you are constantly bringing in PUG members that are not as geared out as your guild members the PUGgeroos might consistently underperform your own guild and not qualify for loot time after time. Just something to keep in mind.

[Angoth]

Because of this, we use the loot system of open rolls MS > OS based on performance.

<snip>

Anyway, the most recent issue we had was on Saurfang.
The 1hand sword dropped, and a frost DK and a hunter rolled.
The hunter won the roll, but because it was a melee weapon, I gave it to the DK.

So, you broke your own rules for handing out loot? In your post, you didn't say anything about a piece being for someone and not for someone else in the rules. You only said, MS > OS, performance. So, the hunter won and you cheated the winner? Everything else I've read is complete bull and justification about why you broke your own rules. But, in the end it comes down to exactly that.

Because everyone else agrees with you about your clever justification doesn't make what you did right. Of course he shit a brick. He won. According to your rules, which you said you were clear on, he won. And you gave it to someone else. Imagine, you're on the Price is Right and you spin the wheel. You get a $1.00. Then, Drew turns to you and says, her breasts are bigger, so she wins with 0.85. Would you shit a brick? Everyone knows the rules of the game.

Don't change the rules based upon what drops and who you think it's best for. Be clear about what each member in the raid is (Tank, Heals, DPS, etc.) and post your rules. After that, let /roll decide. Anything short of that is complete crap.

No wonder Hunters get bent out of shape when shit like this happens. Half of this thread is actually congratulating you for bending on your integrity as Loot Master. For a sword? Really? That's the price for your integrity? Would the DK have pitched a fit if you gave it to the Hunter? I don't think so.

Lest you think I'm a Hunter in disguise, I'm a Holy Priest and I could give a shit less who a piece of loot is 'for'. If you said these are the rules, follow them. When I lead raids and have to pug, they're clear about the loot policy. I follow it to the letter.

Before we raid, I make sure everyone is clear about everyone's Main Spec. There are no abiguities.

For loot:

First, we agree who the drop is for (Tank, Healer [MP5], Ranged caster [Hit], Melee dps, etc.). At this point, we're inclusive rather than exclusive.

Second, I link the item in a /rw. Don't /roll until that time. If you roll high, you'll ask, "That count's right?". If you roll low, you'll ask, "That was before you linked it, so should I roll now?".

Third, I say who gets it and ask the raid if they see anything I don't. I do make mistakes from time to time.

Fourth, I hand the loot to the winner.


Pure and simple. Any deviation from that is shenanigans. And you, sir, played shenanigans.

[The Madgod]

He considers the 1h weapon to be OS for the hunter. He's stated that point somewhere in this thread, on multiple counts, i believe

[Angoth]

He considers the 1h weapon to be OS for the hunter. He's stated that point somewhere in this thread, on multiple counts, i believe

Must have been the part of the thread that I glossed over when my brain switched to 'Clever justifications'.

EDIT: I had to add this after I posted that. If the Hunter has to respec or switch specs and use the item, that's an OFF-SPEC item. If he's just going to put it on right away, get it enchanted later and shoot shit......that's Main spec.

[grimkiller]

The fact that a melee weapon is just a stat-stick is sort of irrelevant. Whether a hunter is using 2 one-handed weapons or 1 two-handed weapon, both lead to a quantifiable proportion to the hunter's theoretical damage output. If upon receiving the item as an upgrade the hunters theoretical max dps would be increased more than a melee class's theoretical damage then it should go to the hunter. I don't think that you can just say "Oh well it's just a stat stick it's not that good for the hunter." Maybe that item would allow them to reach the ArP softcap, or swap other items around and reach the ArP hardcap. Basically what I am saying is, just because it is a melee weapon don't assume that it wouldn't be just as good of an upgrade for a hunter as for a melee dps.

On Topic: OP I think your loot system is fine. One thing I would caution, however, is to be careful who you bring into the raid in the first place. If you are constantly bringing in PUG members that are not as geared out as your guild members the PUGgeroos might consistently underperform your own guild and not qualify for loot time after time. Just something to keep in mind.

When we bring in pugs, I do a gear check prior to starting.
I make sure items, gems, enchants look good.
I have no reservations for kicking dumb people.
Ret pally in AP mail gear? I've seen and I've kicked.
Healers in 232 hit cloth... Wut? change to healing gear or /kick
Normally we only need to pug DPS as we have 3 active tanks (one with a solid offspec) and 6 active healers (a few with solid DPS specs).

I understand not everyone is at the same skill level.
I think in a 25 ICC, it is acceptable to expect 5k DPS.
I think it is acceptable to expect DPS to attack certain things (bone spikes or blood beasts plz ranged?)
I review this info and the rest of the raid proceeds to the next encounter and try my best to hand loot as fairly as I can.

[emni]

Your loot system is good.

The key, however, is to make the system clear at the beginning of the run. You have to make sure that every single member is well aware of what loot they can expect to have priority on and which loot they will have to pass. If they don't like it, let them leave at the beginning and save yourself and the person a headache.

[Alexandrra2012]

When we bring in pugs, I do a gear check prior to starting.
I make sure items, gems, enchants look good.
I have no reservations for kicking dumb people.
Ret pally in AP mail gear? I've seen and I've kicked.
Healers in 232 hit cloth... Wut? change to healing gear or /kick
Normally we only need to pug DPS as we have 3 active tanks (one with a solid offspec) and 6 active healers (a few with solid DPS specs).

I understand not everyone is at the same skill level.
I think in a 25 ICC, it is acceptable to expect 5k DPS.
I think it is acceptable to expect DPS to attack certain things (bone spikes or blood beasts plz ranged?)
I review this info and the rest of the raid proceeds to the next encounter and try my best to hand loot as fairly as I can.

That's about all you can do.

[Astray]

Ret pally in AP mail gear? I've seen and I've kicked.

In before "BIS-Discussion".

[Angoth]

try my best to hand loot as fairly as I can.

No, you handed loot as you saw fit. You know damn well that the Hunter was going to equip it. Tell me how that's not Main spec, again. And when you do, don't involve the phrases, "Stat-stick", "better for", "DK" or "Hunters", because it's really irrelevant what 2 classes it's between.

[Sneakysnado@Gmail.com]

This is probably an overdone topic, but my searches didn't relaly pull up what I'm looking for.

When I put together raids, such as 25man ICC, our guild, who is short on active members, has to pug anywhere from 5-10 spots. Because of this, we use the loot system of open rolls MS > OS based on performance.
I don't like rewarding bad players in hopes that they will try harder, get better, and improve the community (far fetched, I know because alot of people just rage).

Anyway, the most recent issue we had was on Saurfang.
The 1hand sword dropped, and a frost DK and a hunter rolled.
The hunter won the roll, but because it was a melee weapon, I gave it to the DK.
The hunter shit a brick about how that was unfair, but my explination was that I do not reward ranged weapons to rogues/wars over hunters. He leaves the raid, and about that time it was pretty much over anyway (due to some fail pugs we just didn't care to replace because it was late).

So anyway, what I'm asking is, as a RL who generally has a decent amount of pugs, what loot system would you recommend? If we have a full guild run, which hasn't happened on 25 in a few weeks, we do Officer's Loot, and that works fine, but with Pugs I don't see this as an option.

You were right in doing so, unless that hunter thinks a rogue or warrior should be able to roll on zod's (yes i realize it's not good evenfor that, i have one on my rogue for the lols). If my frost DK lost BvB to a hunter for his melee weapon, I'd probably leave the raid.

[Toffie]

This is new, melee have same prioty for ranged as hunters? This is stupid...

Melee weapon = melee prio
Ranged Weapon = hunter prio


..........................

[Alexandrra2012]

You were right in doing so, unless that hunter thinks a rogue or warrior should be able to roll on zod's (yes i realize it's not good evenfor that, i have one on my rogue for the lols). If my frost DK lost BvB to a hunter for his melee weapon, I'd probably leave the raid.

I get that you would be ticked off, but you can't go into a PuG raid with the mindset that any particular item that drops is somehow yours. IMO if you are in the position where you are running raids with different people every week you can't expect that other members will pass items to you because it's your BiS or close. What does it do for them if you get that item? Virtually nothing because the lot of you don't run together week after week.

[frozenslab]

No, you handed loot as you saw fit. You know damn well that the Hunter was going to equip it. Tell me how that's not Main spec, again. And when you do, don't involve the phrases, "Stat-stick", "better for", "DK" or "Hunters", because it's really irrelevant what 2 classes it's between.

complete and utter bullshit. Using your logic, to take a ranged weapon it's EXACTLY the same situation for a warrior or rogue rolling against a hunter. It's part of their dps spec and they can immediately drop it in and start using it. Would you give them priority on a ranged weapon? Fuck no. Is this too hard for you?

[Sneakysnado@Gmail.com]

I get that you would be ticked off, but you can't go into a PuG raid with the mindset that any particular item that drops is somehow yours. IMO if you are in the position where you are running raids with different people every week you can't expect that other members will pass items to you because it's your BiS or close. What does it do for them if you get that item? Virtually nothing because the lot of you don't run together week after week.

Just because it's a bigger upgrade for a hunter than a ranged weapon for a rogue and/or a warrior doesn't mean they have loot priority, especially when DW frost DKs only have 1hrs they can use where as hunters can use those 2h sticks. If you want to go with that mind set, then I'll roll on your ranged weapons because "You can't expect other members to pass because its their BiS or close" and all that nonsense after that sentence.

[Shaibar]

My main used to be a hunter and yeah, any hunter rolling on melee weapons over any class that can use them (provided of course the melee person in question isnt pants on head retarded) is nothing more than loot whore. Yes the melee weapson are good for a hunter, but in all fairness you want to roll on their melee weapons they can roll on ranged, regardless of the difference between ranged stat sticks (for melee) and visa versa. The melee weapon is a bigger upgrade for them than you, get over it. In a similar fashion if Arp pen Mail drops and a hunter wants it I wont roll regardless of the upgrade difference even in a pug. Why? I will seek actively t replace it, the hunter will not most likely.

[Ceara]

This is probably an overdone topic, but my searches didn't relaly pull up what I'm looking for.

When I put together raids, such as 25man ICC, our guild, who is short on active members, has to pug anywhere from 5-10 spots. Because of this, we use the loot system of open rolls MS > OS based on performance.
I don't like rewarding bad players in hopes that they will try harder, get better, and improve the community (far fetched, I know because alot of people just rage).

Anyway, the most recent issue we had was on Saurfang.
The 1hand sword dropped, and a frost DK and a hunter rolled.
The hunter won the roll, but because it was a melee weapon, I gave it to the DK.
The hunter shit a brick about how that was unfair, but my explination was that I do not reward ranged weapons to rogues/wars over hunters. He leaves the raid, and about that time it was pretty much over anyway (due to some fail pugs we just didn't care to replace because it was late).

So anyway, what I'm asking is, as a RL who generally has a decent amount of pugs, what loot system would you recommend? If we have a full guild run, which hasn't happened on 25 in a few weeks, we do Officer's Loot, and that works fine, but with Pugs I don't see this as an option.

State your rules before the roll happens and I don't think you'll have any issues no matter what system you use.

Regarding the bad players thing - Don't invite bad players or kick them after the first fight if you have no plans of giving them loot, its not fair to waste someone's time because you "think" they are bad.

[Kitare]

We have a similar situation, having to pug 5-10 people for our second weekly run, and we use a modified Loot Council system. If an item drops everyone interested links what they have, and whether it would be for main or off spec, then if only people in guild link, we hand it out based on our LC rules, if a pug links, and hasn't won a main spec, then everyone who linked MS for it and doesn't have a MS win rolls, if the pug rolls high, they get it, if one of my guildies rolls high, we hand it out with the LC. Anytime LC gives something to a guildy as MS we count it as a MS win.

That said, in your particular case, we also have a caveat in our rules specifically saying that players who will use an item for something other than a stack stick (feral druids, DW DK's, rogues) all have priority over hunters for melee weapons, and hunters have priority over melee for ranged.

The net effect is that in guild we get to hand out loot the way the LC feels is best, taking into account attendance, performance, recent major wins( winning DBW drops you low on "who gets loot list" for a little), size of upgrade and any other factor we think is relevant, and our pug members still have roughly the same probability of winning an item. To the people who I suspect will ask what stops my guild from cheating and having people link who don't need it to get more rolls, we are known for running good fair partial pug raids on the server, and our guild culture is one such that if someone tried to do that, we'd Gkick em because honesty is one of our primary values.

[Spacemanspif]

[size=10pt]I think the main disconnect comes from what people consider "MS". I for one interpret it as "the itemization of this shiney was clearly designed for my class/spec". Cloth with hit is for dps, anything with mp5 is for healers. Yes I know Mr. Mage with the ilvl 219 boots that this mp5 piece has 50 more SP than yours, but sorry that roll is invalid until OS.

Trying to relate that back to the topic, a melee weapon's DPS component is worth far more itemization than any other slot, and as has been pointed out, this is just a stat stick for a hunter.

Simple comparison vs Nighttime as an example:
+17 agi
+15 ap
+12 arp
+46 hit (most likely being wasted)
-34 haste

for a dk the baseline DPS is 27% higher... How is this even a discussion?