WoD Death Knight Changes

[Schizoide]

Plague Leech was not mandatory throughout MoP. It wasn't worth using when it only restored 1 rune. When it was buffed (in 5.3? I think?) it was worth using but was still a fairly small performance increase. I personally hate Plague Leech and refuse to use it. I'm not being disingenuous at all-- I didn't use it in MoP, and I won't use it in WoD.

That's just me personally. If you like Plague Leech, downtime will be much lower for you.

[Maxweii]

Plague Leech on beta still isn't mandatory. There's a difference between necessary for lower downtime, and true 'mandatory'. If it was mandatory then it would mean the other talents are just truly useless/a dps loss, which UB is kinda the only useless one for Frost.

Especially since the change to Plague Leech it's now more risk reward then just being an assured two free runes.

[Schizoide]

Yep, it isn't mandatory. That also comes down to personal preference. I find the very high downtime completely unacceptable. DW Frost with Plague Leech has acceptable downtime, but I despise Plague Leech. So basically I'm priced out of playing Frost-- it changed into something I simply do not enjoy.

[Maxweii]

I almost wish it would turn into a Frost specific spell that can be used as a risk reward spell, instead of a talent of the same nature. Switching it back to being able to give back just one rune was a good step as it makes it less of a 'free dps' button. Gotta line stuff up properly now to get the best reward possible.

[Beefkow]

I think plague leech will be a liltte more vaulable in WOD than in MOP because obliterate/SS will not require runes to do extra damage.

Basically i can outbreak or plague strike and continue to dps, when the disease(s) is about to fall off i can trade off my 2 dots for 2 more globals.

[Iysdexia]

I think Shadow Infusion stacks should be gained based on RP expenditure rather than on DC casts, like how our rune regeneration talents works now.

[Maxweii]

BoS will still give SI stacks, I think it's just other non damaging runic spenders that don't

[Vereesa]

BoS will still give SI stacks, I think it's just other non damaging runic spenders that don't

Conversion doesn't proc SI, you're right. But then it doesn't proc SoD for Blood either which leads me to believe that's an intended drawback.

[Maxweii]

It's probably for SI/SoD they need to be damaging runic spenders to proc then. Which makes sense, as getting a SI stack from brezzing someone would kinda feel weird lol.

I'm glad they made that difference too, all runic spenders proc Regen but only if they do damage will they give SI/SoD

[tru]

To be fair, if a guild needs to decide between a warrior who dies a lot or a DK who doesn't die a lot they won't care if the warrior does more DPS, they will pick the person who can live through a fight. After all, dead dps is zero dps.

Also you have consider said warrior who dies a lot can learn to be a better player whereas the DK lets say a skilled player is already at max potential with a gimped class.

I would take the warrior and work with them. I am currently watching class changes closely but I feel I may main my warrior again for glad stance. At least warriors will have 3 options for dps. Wars traditionally started off on the low end of the dps spectrum but explode in later tiers. They improved low end scaling but they still do well high end. Dks are the exact opposite of wars start off pretty good and do not scale well.

I just got my CM set on my dk I am starting to wish I spent the time on a class that will be more desirable in the new content.

[RuneDK]

Also you have consider said warrior who dies a lot can learn to be a better player whereas the DK lets say a skilled player is already at max potential with a gimped class.

I would take the warrior and work with them. I am currently watching class changes closely but I feel I may main my warrior again for glad stance. At least warriors will have 3 options for dps. Wars traditionally started off on the low end of the dps spectrum but explode in later tiers. They improved low end scaling but they still do well high end. Dks are the exact opposite of wars start off pretty good and do not scale well.

I just got my CM set on my dk I am starting to wish I spent the time on a class that will be more desirable in the new content.

That is absolutely something I didn't even consider, great points. As far as Glad Stance warrior, if I get WoD I am most likely going that route. It's pretty fun already on the beta realms. Unless something happens to drastically improve DKs before launch in mechanics/scaling(which it isn't) then I see myself moving on completely or going glad stance warrior.

[Skarssen]

Its a tough thing to do. 4 years on a character, 150k+ HKs, Justicar title, Commander title, legendaries, every BS recipe in the game, etc.

Hard to leave all that behind, but staying with a class that isn't fun and/or gimped just for nostalgias sake is tough too.

[Stacie]

Its a tough thing to do. 4 years on a character, 150k+ HKs, Justicar title, Commander title, legendaries, every BS recipe in the game, etc.

Hard to leave all that behind, but staying with a class that isn't fun and/or gimped just for nostalgias sake is tough too.

It does indeed suck but you could always bench the DK as a good geared alt. My plan is level this warrior first and have some fun, then when/if (most likely if, but i doubt anything happens) the DK class is fixed i can swap back.

Not holding out for any fix's though we are not even top DPS right now and we scale bad so that will only get worse, we have rubbish cooldowns and bring little to the raid. We will also get that oblit nerf.

The only hope of being good this tier is if oblit does not get nerfed or if it does we get buffed. But we know that wont happen. If oblit does get nerfed and we get no buffs to compensate we will be the worst melee again with the added issue of scaling.

It's a no win for us in the first tier at least.

[RuneDK]

All the vanilla PvP achievements I give a crap about are on my warrior. So naturally I don't care if he ends up being my main IF I get WoD, I'm basically giving it one to two more number passes before making my decision.

- - - Updated - - -

It does indeed suck but you could always bench the DK as a good geared alt. My plan is level this warrior first and have some fun, then when/if (most likely if, but i doubt anything happens) the DK class is fixed i can swap back.

Not holding out for any fix's though we are not even top DPS right now and we scale bad so that will only get worse, we have rubbish cooldowns and bring little to the raid. We will also get that oblit nerf.

The only hope of being good this tier is if oblit does not get nerfed or if it does we get buffed. But we know that wont happen. If oblit does get nerfed and we get no buffs to compensate we will be the worst melee again with the added issue of scaling.

It's a no win for us in the first tier at least.

the problem is if oblit gets nerfed without compensation elsewhere we won't even be good from the start. Typically we start strong and taper off. Right now(number tuning aside) the only thing keeping any spec competitive is Obliterate which will obviously get the eventual nerf due to PvP. They have had two expansions now to fix the scaling issue and going into the third to fix it for frost and still continually ignore it like it isn't a problem. I do not understand why they don't put in some hard work at the beginning so they don't have to go crazy buffing everything for DKs every tier patch. You would think they would put the extra work in early, so they could just tune things up ro down slightly instead of having crazy shit like what frost got in 5.4 and then them still be one of the worst specs.

[Faenlyn]

All the vanilla PvP achievements I give a crap about are on my warrior. So naturally I don't care if he ends up being my main IF I get WoD, I'm basically giving it one to two more number passes before making my decision.

What's so great about warriors except that the grass is always greener? They are leagues in damage over anyone else in Beta but that will certainly be nerfed and equalized with the rest before live. As far as mechanics all you have to do is go to the Warrior forum to read the complaints. It's near outrage level with regards to their rotations and mechanics. Worse than this thread has been.

[Stacie]

Right now at least from my experience in LFR in WoD beta (lol i know LFR) DK's are not as strong this first tier as many would think. Yes we hit like a truck on a training dummy but we have no charges or anything to stay ontop of a boss. Out of all the melee we are not the greatest. Warriors are sticking out a tone of damage single target, aoe and can stay on the boss better (more mobile) and have better raid cooldowns.

Traditionally DK's start strong, warriors fairly weak then with gear we drop down the meters and warriors go up them. What is happening right now is DK's are not at bottom but middle of meters at the start and we will drop lower with better gear (without even getting a nerf) and class's that scale better will go further up the meters.

Even if warriors got a nerf they will always be more mobile, scale better and have better cooldowns so will overtake us in a short period of time with gear. (unless they get a nerf each tier, and/or we get a buff)

I feel i have been singling out warriors as better here. Although they seam to be (well they are) rogues are not doing that bad and ofc rolling a mage/ele shaman pwns but a warrior seams to be the best match for someone playing a DK already this is why. Anything other than Ret/Shadow seams a better option right now. Ret's not that far behind though and has some nice cooldowns and 3 spec's so might even be better in long run if guild roster is tight.

At least we won't be as bad as ret on meters lol.

[Jimjam38]

Also you have consider said warrior who dies a lot can learn to be a better player whereas the DK lets say a skilled player is already at max potential with a gimped class.

I would take the warrior and work with them. I am currently watching class changes closely but I feel I may main my warrior again for glad stance. At least warriors will have 3 options for dps. Wars traditionally started off on the low end of the dps spectrum but explode in later tiers. They improved low end scaling but they still do well high end. Dks are the exact opposite of wars start off pretty good and do not scale well.

I just got my CM set on my dk I am starting to wish I spent the time on a class that will be more desirable in the new content.

Dk badass flavor > everything

Also, still time to get cms on your war, especially if you tank, you'll get it done easily

[Clash the DK]

What's so great about warriors except that the grass is always greener? They are leagues in damage over anyone else in Beta but that will certainly be nerfed and equalized with the rest before live. As far as mechanics all you have to do is go to the Warrior forum to read the complaints. It's near outrage level with regards to their rotations and mechanics. Worse than this thread has been.

You can check every major Beta class thread and you will find plenty of complaining and outrage because of changes. 50% of the population hates change, while the other 50% thrive on it. So, there will always be complaints. Warriors got the most change, so they have the most complaints. The key is to look past that and put everything into perspective.

Warriors (generally Fury) have consistently been allowed to compete with all of the other "pure dps" classes. Warriors have great mobility that translates well in PvE. They have a new talent called "Unquenchable Thirst" that removes the cooldown from Bloodthirst. Meaning, they now possess the previous fast gameplay of our DK class. And they received the variable GCD based on Haste. Oh, and they will scale incredibly well throughout any tier of content thanks to their secondary stats having actual synergy with their mechanics.

Yeah, I'm sure some Warriors will reroll based on the Beta changes. But I guarantee you that their overall representation will rise during WoD.

[Jimjam38]

Look guiz, I understand these concerns, they're all completely legitimate issues facing the DK class and only the most arrogant non Dk players could pretend otherwise. However, without looking at any statistics, my gut feel is that DKs are the all-round most popular meele class in the game. In MoP, they have the baddass flavor that brings all the noobs to the yard, they have the level 55 start, so they're very popular alts, they have probably the easiest tank spec in the game to play at an absolute trash casual level, they have an absolute faceroll dps spec, and an amazing pvp spec, they are arguably the ultimate soloing class and they have some of the most unique utility in the game with death grip/gorefiends, ams, amz. Yes, its a shame that blizzard is retarded and celestalon should have his name dedicated to an award for professional misguided incompetency, but despite all the issues in mop, dks were still a fairly popular choice and rarely got benched for their spec in even the most hardcore guilds. With their popularity as it stands, I strongly suspect that blizzard will seek to address any serious shortcommings once wod goes live and the whining begins in force. My unholy dk is my main alt, and I honestly enjoy playing it more than any toon, even my main (well, sometimes), so I'll be devastated if things stay as bad as they appear, but, when I take a step back and examine SoO and the final tier of mop, I think, for the most part, blizzard really did managed, somehow, to get class balance right. At least within dps, there were only 3 specs that truely underperformed, marksman, subtlty and demonology, and popularity pladed a big factor in that too. Compared to previous expansions, that's a pretty significant improvement, and I hope they will achieve the same for wod.
So, while you do need to discuss the issues that currently face death knights, and comparing them to other specs which fulfill the same roll is expected, its pointless to say things like Dks will never be chosen over warriors, because that is neither helpful in addressing the short commings, nor does it stand as a solid argument. I realize that you've been discussing and talking about potential solutions for months without blizzard so much as noticing, us disc priests have too and so have most specs, but the moment you give up on discussing the problem and start crying RIP my raid spot is the moment you guarentee that Celestatwat will overlook your concerns.

[Schizoide]

Fury and Arms are not looking good for WoD, mechanically speaking. They're one of very few specs looking worse than DKs, since at least Unholy wasn't hurt in 6.0. Fury is mechanically terrible right now, and arms is tedious as hell. Gladiator prot is looking really neat, though.

Strongly suggest you people stop focusing on beta numbers. Balancing is still ongoing and while of course some will be low and some high, there's no reason to think that frost or unholy will necessarily be one of the lower specs. Look at mechanics-- what will you enjoy playing? And go from there.

Numbers should be a real concern in early october, a couple weeks before the 6.0 pre-expansion patch.