Firelands Raid Changes Incoming

A - they nerf HC's to a point were you become bored for doing an HC
B - they nerf previous tier raids, so its pointless for you to go there, cutting hours and hours of new gaming experience. best place for loot? (remember those boring HC's? )
C - they nerf CURRENT tier of raids, you don't have the HC -> previous tier raids -> current tier raids progression curve any more, you go strait to current tier (all 7 bosses) and faceroll them, what next? more boredom. Why can't blizzard understand that by taking the accomplishment of killing something hard will only lead to a boring game?!

I haven't killed Lady'vash, or Illidan, never set foot on sunwell, got to Yog but haven't killed him, no Arthras kill either but that hasn't stopped me from trying to get to a final boss on every tier. Yes I could go back and kill them now but there is no point, after they are nerfed, or I overgear them too much there is really no point, no challenge to go back! I raided karahzan for over a year, it was challenging for half of that time but in the end we as a guild were ready to take on Zul'Aman raid with nothing else then T4 items mixed with some blues(!) and I have to tell you, to this day killing frekin Zul'Jin was my personal biggest wow achievement, not cos it was easy but cos it was hard!

Listen to the damm Kennedy speech about going to the moon dammit!
"We choose to go to the moon in this decade and do the other things, not because they are easy, but because they are hard, because that goal will serve to organize and measure the best of our energies and skills, because that challenge is one that we are willing to accept, one we are unwilling to postpone, and one which we intend to win, and the others, too. "

making easy nerfed things.... yay.... /facepalm
This is why we all go tru Call of Dutty on easy mode right? so we can be done with it in 4h and go do something else... right?!

Originally Posted by artemishunter1

nerfing is one thing, but nerfing it to where mechanics don't even matter. thats really really suck.

Okay I'm sorry but, please name and give a concrete example of a fight where the mechanics "Don't even matter". I did most of normal T11 pre-nerf, and then did it on another toon post-nerf; I found no situation where the mechanics didn't matter; I found a lot of situations where messing up by accident wasn't insta-kill and an automatic wipe, but that's not necessarily a bad thing because very tight margins for error are flat out bad.

Give me some concrete examples of this argument, because I'm not seeing it.

Halfus: Depending on drake comp either stupid easy (i.e. no slate) or still have to be aware of mechanics (tanks still have to taunt off w/Slate up, just less margin for whoops heal came late dead tank wipe)
V&T: Can't ignore meteors, or breath, or twilight zones.
Twilight Council: Still have to interrupt, still have to run from Glaciate, still have to DPS hard on P3 or you die
Cho'gal: Still have to interrupt worshipping, still have to kill adds quick, still have to watch corruption
Magmaw: Still have to not be totally stupid, still have to use chains
Omnotron: Still have to target swap, still have to be aware of special abilities (slimes, fire blast, etc)
Maloriak: Still have to watch for blue phase, still have to burn down adds on green
Chimaeron: Healers still have to be on the ball due to the fight mechanics
Atramedes: Still have to avoid getting sound to 100 and not standing in fire/letting him track you
Nefarian: Still have to be aware of EVERYTHING. Have to kill Ony, have to interrupt blast waves, have to kite bone guys, can't stand in fire, bone guys have to not get hit by Shadowblaze
Conclave: Still have to switch platforms, still have to not stand in junk/kill/adds/whatever Rohash does, still have to coordinate DPS to kill them together
Al'akir: Still have to avoid tornados, still have to not get hit by lightning cloud
Argaloth(!): Wasn't nerfed that I'm aware of but still have to taunt off for Meteor Slash, still have to dispel, still have to not herp-derp in fire.

So again, please give a specific example of a fight (in the current expansion, no "well there's Molten Core...") where you can literally ignore all the mechanics of the fight and still win? The only ones that would even come close are the fights that had barely no mechanics to begin with beyond the absolute basics that anyone would know of (Magmaw, Atramedes, Halfus w/out Slate drake), and even those if you just stand there like an idiot and DPS you're going to die.

Stupid change. If people aren't good enough to clear content or even reach it, why bend and tone the difficulty to them? Almost all the hardmodes are easy anyway. Seriously, if you complain that its "too hard" go play HelloKitty Island. Casual players wont get "better" if the content is toned to suit their needs.

Originally Posted by Alyssa

There are tons of reasons why one have not cleared 7/7 hc by now, skill cap is far from the only possible one, and I am looking at it from a broad perspective, normal mode is there for people to see the content I'm sure we can all agree on that. Now after this amount of time your average raiding guild will be on anywhere between 7/7 normal and and 6/7 heroic with the proper hardcore guilds already cleared 7/7, now I don't mind a nerf to normal modes if it's needed to help some players see the content as it cost a lot to design and what not (cheap desing or not being another discussion).

The heroic modes are there to give a challenge once you seen the content, if you already have 7/7 HC then this change means nothing to your game besides a bit faster clear, but for the rest that are progressing heroics why would they need a boost through it, it only speeds up the process of them clearing the next tier of content as normal + a few heroics is what's there content capability normally, so all it's doing is push them faster to there skill cap.

At the end of this you get what we have now, some players feeling entitled to clear heroic content even though it wasn't aimed to be for them in the first place, and if you look at rewards and difficulty historically, once you give something you almost never can take it back.

How can you say you're looking at it from a broad perspective when you're obviously only really considering your own? Your guild may have issues progressing due to other reasons, but that doesn't mean everyone is and for the most part most guilds are limited in progress due to the skill level of their guild. Yes other things come up that cause a lack of progression, but skill level is the number one thing across the board that's slowing it without question.

Half as many raiding guilds are currently doing tier 12 than did any current content in WotLK, that's why they're making these changes and it's to allow those same players to gear up to be able to do tier 13 when it's made available instead of lagging behind like they've done this entire expansion. They want people to catch up so they can do the final tier because of how quickly not only tier 13 will be coming but the next expansion as well after that.

What's ironic is you claim this will build up people's entitlement of the game when it's obvious you already feel that you are due something for some reason. If you haven't progressed as far as you think you can in Firelands you have 2 weeks to do so before they nerf it. They've always nerfed this content, just because they're doing it sooner due to not only their being less overall content but the next tier of content being on the horizon doesn't change anything.

Originally Posted by cynsacat

Why, oh, why are we likening an MMO, a game, to the education system in the United States? Pretty sure one is way more important than the other... And people agreeing with it makes me just facepalm. If you want to get this fired up, do it over the education system that's apparently on-par with this being-handed-over-to-the-casuals-because-Blizz-doesn't-care (should-be) source of enjoyment...

If you want to argue effectively, please choose your analogies wisely.

That analogy is spot on, apparently you fail to grasp that a good analogy is. It's exactly like the state of education in the US, and just because the two don't have much else in common doesn't make what they do have in common, the dumbing down of content for the people left behind, any less valid.

Perhaps you should choose your criticisms more wisely.

Originally Posted by Nisala

The new trendy opinion seems to be "if you've not cleared it yet, you've no right to complain because you need the help" (or other similarly phrased opinions). This is problematic; because no-one *needs* nerfs in a game. There are two main groups of players in WoW; those that want a real challenge and to be pushed, and those that simply want to log on for a couple of hours every now and then and enjoy relatively easy content that's interesting and furthers the lore. Obviously there are people in between; but typically you're progress focussed or you're not. Thus there are two types of raiding; normal and heroic. Normal is there to be altered and changed in order to help as many people as possible enjoy current content. Heroic is there to challenge people and push the limits of raiding.

Whether you progress in 2 weeks, or 3 months, you're still progressing and doing what you enjoy; regardless of whether you're an "elite" player or not. It's about what people enjoy, and the simple fact is that this nerf goes against EVERYTHING that the heroic mode stands for. Normal is there to be nerfed; that fits perfectly with the ethos of normal content. It does NOT fit with heroic theory.

I wish people would stop turning this on those that complain, labelling them as "elitist" or otherwise - it's very simply that many of us enjoy a challenge; whether we're great at the challenge or not, we enjoy engaging in it. It's simply illogical to contradict what heroic was all about... Purely illogical.

Originally Posted by Milton

A - they nerf HC's to a point were you become bored for doing an HC
B - they nerf previous tier raids, so its pointless for you to go there, cutting hours and hours of new gaming experience. best place for loot? (remember those boring HC's? )
C - they nerf CURRENT tier of raids, you don't have the HC -> previous tier raids -> current tier raids progression curve any more, you go strait to current tier (all 7 bosses) and faceroll them, what next? more boredom. Why can't blizzard understand that by taking the accomplishment of killing something hard will only lead to a boring game?!

I haven't killed Lady'vash, or Illidan, never set foot on sunwell, got to Yog but haven't killed him, no Arthras kill either but that hasn't stopped me from trying to get to a final boss on every tier. Yes I could go back and kill them now but there is no point, after they are nerfed, or I overgear them too much there is really no point, no challenge to go back! I raided karahzan for over a year, it was challenging for half of that time but in the end we as a guild were ready to take on Zul'Aman raid with nothing else then T4 items mixed with some blues(!) and I have to tell you, to this day killing frekin Zul'Jin was my personal biggest wow achievement, not cos it was easy but cos it was hard!

Listen to the damm Kennedy speech about going to the moon dammit!
"We choose to go to the moon in this decade and do the other things, not because they are easy, but because they are hard, because that goal will serve to organize and measure the best of our energies and skills, because that challenge is one that we are willing to accept, one we are unwilling to postpone, and one which we intend to win, and the others, too. "

making easy nerfed things.... yay.... /facepalm
This is why we all go tru Call of Dutty on easy mode right? so we can be done with it in 4h and go do something else... right?!

Yet this is a video game, not real life, and people play it for entertainment. If people can't progress they become bored and stop playing. Blizzard has done this to WoW for the past 3 years and I'm still amazed when people act so surprised about it.

Originally Posted by Arothand

Okay I'm sorry but, please name and give a concrete example of a fight where the mechanics "Don't even matter". I did most of normal T11 pre-nerf, and then did it on another toon post-nerf; I found no situation where the mechanics didn't matter; I found a lot of situations where messing up by accident wasn't insta-kill and an automatic wipe, but that's not necessarily a bad thing because very tight margins for error are flat out bad.

Give me some concrete examples of this argument, because I'm not seeing it.

Halfus: Depending on drake comp either stupid easy (i.e. no slate) or still have to be aware of mechanics (tanks still have to taunt off w/Slate up, just less margin for whoops heal came late dead tank wipe)
V&T: Can't ignore meteors, or breath, or twilight zones.
Twilight Council: Still have to interrupt, still have to run from Glaciate, still have to DPS hard on P3 or you die
Cho'gal: Still have to interrupt worshipping, still have to kill adds quick, still have to watch corruption
Magmaw: Still have to not be totally stupid, still have to use chains
Omnotron: Still have to target swap, still have to be aware of special abilities (slimes, fire blast, etc)
Maloriak: Still have to watch for blue phase, still have to burn down adds on green
Chimaeron: Healers still have to be on the ball due to the fight mechanics
Atramedes: Still have to avoid getting sound to 100 and not standing in fire/letting him track you
Nefarian: Still have to be aware of EVERYTHING. Have to kill Ony, have to interrupt blast waves, have to kite bone guys, can't stand in fire, bone guys have to not get hit by Shadowblaze
Conclave: Still have to switch platforms, still have to not stand in junk/kill/adds/whatever Rohash does, still have to coordinate DPS to kill them together
Al'akir: Still have to avoid tornados, still have to not get hit by lightning cloud
Argaloth(!): Wasn't nerfed that I'm aware of but still have to taunt off for Meteor Slash, still have to dispel, still have to not herp-derp in fire.

So again, please give a specific example of a fight (in the current expansion, no "well there's Molten Core...") where you can literally ignore all the mechanics of the fight and still win? The only ones that would even come close are the fights that had barely no mechanics to begin with beyond the absolute basics that anyone would know of (Magmaw, Atramedes, Halfus w/out Slate drake), and even those if you just stand there like an idiot and DPS you're going to die.

You sir win the iterwebz

Originally Posted by tinu

this is why you should not raid, move server learn to play or gtfo

why should people have to pay 25 dollars to enjoy the game better.Transferring servers is not always the best/open option for most. I know my class, know how to raid ect. its the server thats bad, and this way lets people enjoy the game w.o spending extra unneeded money.

This if terrible news. My guild just got its shit together and got 2/7 HM and are very keen to push at least 6/7 before 4.3. Now it won't even mean anything. Normal modes are very easy at the moment, my server regularly has PuG rags going, and the heroics are a lot more accessible than tier 11. What happened to the policy of nerfing it down after 4.3 hit?

Originally Posted by Arothand

Okay I'm sorry but, please name and give a concrete example of a fight where the mechanics "Don't even matter". I did most of normal T11 pre-nerf, and then did it on another toon post-nerf; I found no situation where the mechanics didn't matter; I found a lot of situations where messing up by accident wasn't insta-kill and an automatic wipe, but that's not necessarily a bad thing because very tight margins for error are flat out bad.

Give me some concrete examples of this argument, because I'm not seeing it.

Halfus: Depending on drake comp either stupid easy (i.e. no slate) or still have to be aware of mechanics (tanks still have to taunt off w/Slate up, just less margin for whoops heal came late dead tank wipe)
V&T: Can't ignore meteors, or breath, or twilight zones.
Twilight Council: Still have to interrupt, still have to run from Glaciate, still have to DPS hard on P3 or you die
Cho'gal: Still have to interrupt worshipping, still have to kill adds quick, still have to watch corruption
Magmaw: Still have to not be totally stupid, still have to use chains
Omnotron: Still have to target swap, still have to be aware of special abilities (slimes, fire blast, etc)
Maloriak: Still have to watch for blue phase, still have to burn down adds on green
Chimaeron: Healers still have to be on the ball due to the fight mechanics
Atramedes: Still have to avoid getting sound to 100 and not standing in fire/letting him track you
Nefarian: Still have to be aware of EVERYTHING. Have to kill Ony, have to interrupt blast waves, have to kite bone guys, can't stand in fire, bone guys have to not get hit by Shadowblaze
Conclave: Still have to switch platforms, still have to not stand in junk/kill/adds/whatever Rohash does, still have to coordinate DPS to kill them together
Al'akir: Still have to avoid tornados, still have to not get hit by lightning cloud
Argaloth(!): Wasn't nerfed that I'm aware of but still have to taunt off for Meteor Slash, still have to dispel, still have to not herp-derp in fire.

So again, please give a specific example of a fight (in the current expansion, no "well there's Molten Core...") where you can literally ignore all the mechanics of the fight and still win? The only ones that would even come close are the fights that had barely no mechanics to begin with beyond the absolute basics that anyone would know of (Magmaw, Atramedes, Halfus w/out Slate drake), and even those if you just stand there like an idiot and DPS you're going to die.

Nefarian is a good example of why the nerfs are outrageous. I have done pugs where we went into the last phase with Nef at 90%+ on normal 10, and the add tank never reset them ONCE. Healer healed through it the entire time(only died at the end when the boss died).

The crackle is 100% ignorable, probably even in full 346 gear. Doesn't hit for jack. One of the scariest parts of the fight was made 100% insignificant.

When you can have entire groups swim from platform to platform in P2 with absolutely 0 problems there is a huge issue.

Originally Posted by Dorfie

What happened to the policy of nerfing it down after 4.3 hit?

How does it even need to be toned down? they tuned some fights better, and the HMs are still simple, Rag still isn't a pushover, but why would you want it to be? Things are supposed to be challanging for a reason, if you can't do it then get better.

lol so many ragers in here

Originally Posted by Xenlol

Stupid change. If people aren't good enough to clear content or even reach it, why bend and tone the difficulty to them? Almost all the hardmodes are easy anyway. Seriously, if you complain that its "too hard" go play HelloKitty Island. Casual players wont get "better" if the content is toned to suit their needs.

Exactly what i was going to say.

I found a lot of situations where messing up by accident wasn't insta-kill and an automatic wipe, but that's not necessarily a bad thing because very tight margins for error are flat out bad.

That's the difference between a hard fight and an easy fight.

If you can "mess up in a situation" then that means that mechanic can be ignored, maybe not 100% of the time, but some of the time. With a little bit of gear, ALL the time.

If you guys REALLY want an IWIN button constantly then just outright say it. you don't want to be challenged at all, you want to win. But you don't want to do the work to get to it.

As always Risk vs Reward, nonexistent

I have to say I think a nerf this early is stupid. When Firelands hit my guild was just entering a summer raid break. All our progress raiders were off doing whatever people do during summer when they are not playing wow.

We have just come out of our summer raid break, our progress team stood ready and we went into Firelands yesterday and shannox was down on the 3rd go. Couple of silly mistakes stopped us from 1 shotting it. Now we are not a hardcore or elite guild, we are a social raiding guild with a team of what i would call elite raiders in our ranks that progress faster than most. So the content isnt exactly hard if social raiding guilds can easily defeat the bosses at the current difficulty levels.

I recon Blizz arent seeing many guilds progress into Firelands over summer BECAUSE ITS SUMMER! majority of guild take a summer raid break and most will have started this break as Firelands was released. So it seems stupid to go applying a full nerf now

I ask.. for guilds that have just come out of thier break and are looking for the challenge WHY nerf it now.. in my opinion there is absolutely no pleasure or satisfaction in killing a boss post nerf.

BOT/BWD/TOTFW is so easy now we can 8 man all bosses (except for the last ones obviously) so why do that to Firelands when it was only released a month or so ago?!? Doesnt give anyone the chance to progress

Anyways you all get the point, will be soloing Firelands next week haha

Cheers fellas

Originally Posted by sicness

How can you say you're looking at it from a broad perspective when you're obviously only really considering your own? Your guild may have issues progressing due to other reasons, but that doesn't mean everyone is and for the most part most guilds are limited in progress due to the skill level of their guild. Yes other things come up that cause a lack of progression, but skill level is the number one thing across the board that's slowing it without question.

Half as many raiding guilds are currently doing tier 12 than did any current content in WotLK, that's why they're making these changes and it's to allow those same players to gear up to be able to do tier 13 when it's made available instead of lagging behind like they've done this entire expansion. They want people to catch up so they can do the final tier because of how quickly not only tier 13 will be coming but the next expansion as well after that.

What's ironic is you claim this will build up people's entitlement of the game when it's obvious you already feel that you are due something for some reason. If you haven't progressed as far as you think you can in Firelands you have 2 weeks to do so before they nerf it. They've always nerfed this content, just because they're doing it sooner due to not only their being less overall content but the next tier of content being on the horizon doesn't change anything.

All I can say really is, that with your views I wish you the best of luck when an expansion is less than a year and the now heroic content is available for a month max before major nerfs, because that's where we are heading, if normal and heroic isn't cutting it to cover the definable player groups then Blizzard needs to create more content, or add another mode to fill the obvious demand for content, people defending wide nerfs like this where Blizzard artificially creates more content for some players at the expense of others only helps to the downfall of the game.

Either way, Blizzard have this expansion to sort out if they are going to offer proper challenging content in a format that has longevity or not, if not they will simply lose me as a customer as they won't offer me anything as semi hardcore raider.

ps. Broad perspective meaning I take the people who wants to only see the content, the once that want a challenge and the ultra hardcore that allready have there content untouched in to account, if the middle ground isn't fully happy with that model then Blizzard needs to add more layers in the middle as the current version can't cater to all.

I quit raiding during the first week of Firelands, my reasoning was that it isn't worth investing time into a game that eventually is made easier. A lot of guildies tried to talk me out of it, and now I can gloat that I was right to stop playing when I did. Every player that has sacrificed anything to clear this content should remember this day, and maybe rethink your priorities.

Originally Posted by thelordymir

That analogy is spot on, apparently you fail to grasp that a good analogy is. It's exactly like the state of education in the US, and just because the two don't have much else in common doesn't make what they do have in common, the dumbing down of content for the people left behind, any less valid.

Perhaps you should choose your criticisms more wisely.

Waaait a minute; waaait a minute here. So Blizzard nerfing a game (that is their creation and that people pay them to keep up and carry on) so that more people can get through and therefore see said content in a recreational activity that they pay for is.. Equal to children in the United States failing to live up to reading and math standards due to poor curriculum/legislation choices and educational standards/practices made a couple of decades ago and enacted over the years since? The two are not similar. :P

So by your theory, the children who are failing in the United States are just plain dumb, and we should've left them in a crevice at birth instead of... What, nerfing school systems so they could learn...? Which obviously is not what's going on, I am aware. But if we're going to follow this analogy through... I fail to see how you can imagine a game (which is, again, a recreational, paid activity) run rampant with elitism as well as QQers - which can be the same group but are not always - the same as the US education system. We're missing some dots to connect here.

That was my point. Not a proper analogy.

Why can't they just wait until they launch 4.3 and then nerf the content for casuals to see and experience? This way they're taking the feeling of achieving the kill away from guilds still progressing on the bosses and also making farming the content boring as hell by making it too easy.