Kebess, how long do you normally take to TC and put up weakened blows on a boss pull? Isn't it ideal to do it before your first devastate even if it's further down on the priority list after you've done it once?
Kebess, how long do you normally take to TC and put up weakened blows on a boss pull? Isn't it ideal to do it before your first devastate even if it's further down on the priority list after you've done it once?
Thanks nonetheless for advice but I already know what to do there but this will be great for newcommers and others so keep it up like that, because if I would be a fresh guy, that guide is pure gold tbh.
I more liked to hear how ya guys feel with initial dmg income as that could be the way I geared up/reforged (2x trinkets that stack during the combat) but if you say it's all the same for you too then I will do it as I do now, mostly as you stated above. I just felt strange to pop even things like DS at the start. On that multiple mobs situation, as I said I did all that was needed but mob was still stick for few seconds on another player (there was not even slight dmg from him), mob did switch tho, after he reached that person, silly bugs?
After few test raids, FL hc, DS hc runs I started to thinking about it too, specially with initial dmg. Also there are few times you go to that point 35% and using IV still require that 10rage or zerk/60rage on ER so I guess I will test it next DS/FL and compare how much it did proc and stuff.
You would have to be under 35% hp for 10s every minute for Second Wind to have the same effectiveness that Enrage Regen or Impending Victory has. Outside of a few special cases I don't see it getting off more than 1-3 ticks before you're back above 35%, which is why I would keep Enraged Regen or Imp Victory just so you have the control over how and when you receive your self healing.
For me it depends on the fight. Most fights begin with only tank damage so you're the only one that the healers are focusing on so you're able to get a full opener off before you'd want to TC. But that being said on fights like Baleroc, Morchok and the Terrors on Madness I'll usually SS -> TC just b/c of the higher physical damage.
Ultimately, this is the nub of the issue.
Second Wind, regardless of timing, will be ready to go if you’re ever under its threshold. Win. Enraged Regeneration and Impending Victory have definitive drawbacks (the first a needlessly high rage cost, the second the fact you have to be able to hit something) as well as harbouring decision points that, once made, will rob you of any self-healing for the next 29 or 59 seconds. These durations can be interminably long.
I’m aware that, in raw numbers, it’s highly unlikely Second Wind can ever beat the other talents on its tier. That said, it’s just as unlikely that you’ll routinely use ER or IV on cooldown and that, even if you did, they’re painfully weak. To paraphrase Nhym, “it’s a [talented] heal you can barely feel”.
Most of the commentary regarding ER and IV concentrate on the question whether or not you want a more common heal that’s lower, or a more cooldown-orientated one that’s potentially less reliable.
None of the commentary concentrates on the fact that they’re both shite. The difference they make is made up for by incidental AoE heals, that’s how weak they are.
And as situational as Second Wind is, at least it’s powerful when it does go off.
Haven't tried it myself but if i'm reading that correctly it has no duration, meaning that whenever you are under 35% and while you are under you regen. If it works like this it's useless, how many times are you going to be under 35% long enough for that to be usefull before your healers do their job?
That's not really the point I'm making.
My point is that there are three crap talents in the tier, so it’s a case of picking the one that’s the least crap. Nobody, not even you, notices when you use Enraged Regeneration or Impending Victory because they’re so weak – they’re practically meaningless heals and a waste of rage. Both of the previous incarnations of these talents were far better.
Yet, you’d be amazed how long you survive with Second Wind while you’re hovering around the one-third health mark. And because it’s passive, there’s no actual decision to be made about when to use it. It’s future proof.
Truthfully, the entire tier is a sham. We waste a talent for self healing that still leaves us worse off in that regard than the other tanks are as baseline. Now, that’s fine; self-healing isn’t part of our kit. But then why is this tier here at all? Why couldn’t it have been based around something that IS a part of our kit?
Anyway, this is a guide. As such, it needs to house meaningful discussions on the talents and discounting Second Wind as “useless” is a gross disservice to it when the competitors are barely any better.
Chosing from something that heals you on demand for 20% of your total HP on 1 min cd meaning that it can even be used together with LS or RC, from something that on demand heals you for 10% of your total HP on 30s cd and again can be used with LS or RC, or something that might at best heal you for 6% of your total HP unless you consider being 1 hit to death for more than 2 seconds healthy... My opinion remains that it's useless unless we have some gimmick fight where it will actually shine. Most of the times it will be a subpar option.
For some really crazy action you can do
Afaik Heroic Throw is off global cooldown.Code:/cast [@mouseover,help,nodead][help,nodead] Intervene /cast [@mouseover,help,nodead][@target,help,nodead] Vigilance /stopmacro [@target,help,nodead][@mouseover,help,nodead] /cleartarget [dead] /startattack /cast Charge /cast Heroic Throw /cast Heroic Leap
The Intervene part is kinda tricky. It will cast Intervene automatically on the target target if the target has a player target that is not you. So basically as soon as the mob targets someone else and you hit the key it will Intervene that player if in range.
Sometimes this produces pretty funny outcomes. You intervene your healer and charge right back to the mob.
See, this is the problem.
If your opinion is that you prefer Enraged Regeneration or Impending Victory, then that’s absolutely fine. I’m not disagreeing with your assessment at all, because I can’t – it’s your assessment.
But you’re presenting Second Wind extremely unfairly in your commentary, while totally overlooking some pretty significant flaws with your preferences. Both talents require user participation (positive for some, negative for others) and both compete with baseline abilities for your rage. Here are my issues, in a nutshell.
Enraged Regeneration requires an Enrage effect (which it consumes, I believe) or a total of 60 rage. You’re giving up a Shield Block or full strength barrier for this talent, it’s only available once a minute and you can make bad decisions with it. You can, however, control when you want to use it as it’s an active ability.
Impending Victory requires you to be able to hit a target (not always guaranteed) and will cost you 20 rage. You’re giving up a low strength Shield Barrier for it which, when boss tanking, will still be of far more value. A single weak heal, every 30 seconds, is not worth 20 rage and a talent point. Again, it’s active.
Second Wind requires you to be below 35% health and will, on average, tick between one and three times at best. However, it has no rage cost, it cannot technically be wasted, and it has no cooldown; not even an ICD. It’s wholly passive and, due to it being free, you can use rage for blocks or barriers instead.
NONE of these talents are strong. They’re all abnormally weak. In the end, it comes down to personal preference which you want to take and all I’m arguing for is that Second Wind gets a fair shake rather than having all its weaknesses compared to all its competitors strengths.
And, yes, this is a complete 180 from my previous stance on the matter.
You have a fair point there Thyl. These 3 talents are all at best moderate, with Second Wind being a tad more situational than the two others - we can't ignore that.
But when that last one actually have some occasions to proc more or less regularly, it becomes a nice tool to have, especially when compared to the two other abilities.
I pointed out a while back, at the beginning of the beta, that our self-healing was really too mediocre when compared to other tanks, and that we didn't have enough tools to balance this lack.
We ended up however having Shield Barrier, which can be used for absorption and thus some sort of self-healing, and Rallying Cry which momentarily grants us some more health. I personally was glad with these, and found things much more on par once again, especially when you add to these two abilities, ER or IR, or even SW. And so, I settled for them.
I totally agree that the second tier still remains weak though, and should either be buffed somehow or simply be replaced with more impacting survival tools.
Now, regarding the choice we have to make between these three abilities, as I've said before, it remains extremely close and even situational, and so your personal preference will inevitably impact that choice.
For that reason, I'll leave this 2nd tier blank in the guide, and instead give more descriptions and situations in which they can all three shine, and let you guys make your own subjective choice - because in most cases, that choice wouldn't even matter that much to begin with, since these three talents are so ''moderate'' (to not say weak), and so close in strength.
I'll be doing the same for the first tier as well, since choosing between Juggernaut and Double Time, will mainly depend on your own personal gameplay more than anything else, as you'll always find ways to either fairly defend your choice, or have the exact same end result with any of these two abilities.
This is why I clearly stated that your own personal flavor, and raid set up, and the encounter itself, were gonna be the determinant points for this build. It's simply what this next expansion is all about really, and I even love this idea.
The only downside is that many, if not most, of our choice are in fact inconsequent in the vast majority of encounters we'll be facing, as you could truly go ahead and beat everything without even bothering to pick any talent at all, on tier 1, 3, 5, etc... since they have so little impact on the overall end result.
And in my own humble opinion, that is exactly what still needs much more improvement for this expansion to truly become what we've all been wanting all these years.
---------- Post added 2012-09-03 at 05:09 PM ----------
Thanks for this macro! I'll certainly try it out, and see what it's worth.
---------- Post added 2012-09-03 at 05:21 PM ----------
In a single target environment, I truly don't delay it, even though it's not my first move. It comes fairly ''naturally'', as I don't really think that much about it. But it always happens after the initial SS, and somewhere in between the following Rev and Devastate. I rarely wait any longer than that first Devastate to Thunder Clap, as there's no point in delaying it any longer.
Ideally, you want it ASAP if aggro isn't an issue. So don't hesitate to place it right after that first SS.
If your pull was correct, you'd have more than enough Rage to pop a Shield Block anyways, and so delaying Rev, and Devastate just for a GCD, would not be penalizing even in the slightest way.
Heroic Throw is still on the global cooldown.
To bad. So I would remove that from the macro and use leap instead.
I like having Taunt + Heroic Throw on a button aswell.
Last edited by mmoc48efa32b91; 2012-09-04 at 07:40 AM.
Victory Rush/Impending Victory heal you regardless of the ability being a hit/miss/dodge/parry/block/immune
It can be glyphed to 15% of max HP, none of the others have that benfit
Also it only costs 10 rage
Talents of the same tier are in competition with each other so its intended that none of them stand out as the best, as is the point of the talent revamp. They're each going to have situational advantages, though I'd say Victory Rush is the overwhelmingly more useful one for 90% of encounters
Personally, I think IV is the strongest in that tier. 10 rage is pretty cheap.
Also, according to http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/6490559608 Dragon Roar generates no threat, which is hopefully a bug, because that's really odd and makes it a really terrible talent. Which is a shame, because it's awesome.
EDIT: @above, the Victory Rush glyph doesn't work on the normal portion of IV, just the bit that imitates the original Victory Rush.
Last edited by Waniou; 2012-09-04 at 08:16 AM.
o nvm then
That’s not what I meant – I meant that if you’re stunned, out of range or have nothing to hit (Lei Shi for example), then you’ve got a heal that you can’t get off.
I’ve spoken about this recently and it’s a route you might want to take in a mega-defensive build; but have you confirmed that the glyph works for Impending Victory? I keep meaning to check, and keep forgetting. >.<
Fair correction, thanks.
But is it a better use of your rage than waiting another 10, which is easy, for a low level barrier? Go tank any ol’ content, and see how much the average low level barrier is absorbing when you have some Vengeance. You’ll be shocked at the result for just how weak Impending Victory really is.
That’s really all I’m trying to say, despite disagreeing with your conclusion. For PvE purposes there are more choices (PvP warrior choices are practically set in stone) and the second tier needs to be viewed that way.
---------- Post added 2012-09-04 at 09:28 AM ----------
This could be intended for DPS specs as, otherwise, it could be an aggro monster because of how hard it actually hits. Still, I don’t see why that would be the case while in Defensive Stance.
Thanks for that; it’s good to see another potential option taken away in this effort to "give us more REAL options".
If you compare IV to Barrier, Barrier will win, but there are situations in MoP content where you will be taking a hit with Barrier up, and needing a heal but being out of LoS of your healers for a few seconds, in which case either it or Enraged Regen are actually good
No. Casting IV interrupts your RPS rotation and delays SB. Thus '10 rage' is a wrong way to look at it.
GCD lock should also be taken into account as a part of its cost. ER and SecW don't have this drawback
Being miss/parry immune is irrelevant as chances are you are going to be hit/exp capped on most if not all encounters.
No doubt it will be good on some fights. But I doubt it will be the default choice. Mindless spamming it on CD certainly won't do you any good.
In fact, in this case ER would usually be a clear win because these sorts of spots normally occur when you are kiting things and hence trying to stay out of melee range.in which case either it or Enraged Regen are actually good
Last edited by kopcap; 2012-09-04 at 08:36 AM.