So how are your games going lately? [megathread]

[Post]

People here are complaining because so many Moiras would actually serve their team ebtter if they were playing another DPS hero, because their team healing output is that shite and all they are trying to do is get dmg medals(they don't but theyre trying.)

That's not really a problem with the hero...

Have you read the conversation? I’ve literally been switching off Pharah or DVa to play Zenyatta or Ana, giving us 3 Support, due to the Moira was contributing so little by way of healing because they’re too focused on dealing damage; because her very design encourages DPS over healing.

It won matches, but would have been no doubt easier had the Moira been on a DPS better for the role they’re trying to fill with her.

I don't see how her design encourages DPS instead of healing.

[Eapoe]

That's not really a problem with the hero...



I don't see how her design encourages DPS instead of healing.

People are saying that because she acts as a flanker at lower ranks. If I felt so inclined (and I have in the past when my team is shit or our other support is doing well) where I flank the enemy team and not only 1v1 others, I 1v2-3 at times as well.
Her design encourages damage over healing because (A) there is no resource to manage doing damage. You hold RMB while looking at an enemy, if you can you throw damage orb to help kill, if you want some sustained like 76 you throw a healing orb. (B) Her damage is too high right now. Having her drain health to get back energy to heal is fine; however, the damage of her abilities is higher than the return. If they nerfed her damage slightly on beam or orb, maybe both, people would focus more on sticking with their team instead of running off to duel enemy characters. With her damage so high at this point, people feel they contribute more doing damage with her than keeping their team alive.
She currently functions as Symmetra but stronger with sustainability in a fight, and that's how people use her.
Don't get me wrong, I love this hero as I can damage and support; however, many people play her as straight damage and neglect their team due to how she works.

[DeadmanWalking]

That's not really a problem with the hero...



I don't see how her design encourages DPS instead of healing.

Exactly, having a mechanic that people use wrong doesn’t make the design bad, just means the players are bad. If I see my opponent throw a Rhein tackle into my 6 man team I know I am about to have a good game because they suck. If they are on my team I tell them that is suicide and not to do it anymore. I’m not abusive or trolling, I keep my tone in check. Most of the time they hear me and listen. If I call them a dipshit they just tune me out because nobody reacts well to insults.

There are many moves that noobs make and constantly Purple Ball is one of them. It isn’t a problem with Moira, it’s that the player doesn’t know how best to play them. The only time I go full tilt dps with Moira is when my team can’t seem to take down a Pharah fast enough. Then I roast her until she switched.

[Battlebeard]

People here are complaining because so many Moiras would actually serve their team ebtter if they were playing another DPS hero, because their team healing output is that shite and all they are trying to do is get dmg medals(they don't but theyre trying.)

They should nerf Moiras damage then, cause of like the 50 games I played as Moira, I got gold damage 45 times or so. She is extremely strong DPSwise.

[Speaknoevil]

They should nerf Moiras damage then, cause of like the 50 games I played as Moira, I got gold damage 45 times or so. She is extremely strong DPSwise.

One of the reasons Moiras can do this and think they are performing well is this:

Enemy Team does 1000 Damage to your team while you are DPSing and then you shift away when it gets dicey.
Your team does 2000 Damage but since they aren;t being healed they have to continually fall back to health packs while the other team does not.
The enemy's DPS is meaningful but your team's is not because the healer isn't doing their job, all while screeching about DPS when the orb splash damage isn't actually accomplishing anything.

1000 - 0 = 1000
2000 - 2000 = 0

[Post]

People are saying that because she acts as a flanker at lower ranks. If I felt so inclined (and I have in the past when my team is shit or our other support is doing well) where I flank the enemy team and not only 1v1 others, I 1v2-3 at times as well.
Her design encourages damage over healing because (A) there is no resource to manage doing damage. You hold RMB while looking at an enemy, if you can you throw damage orb to help kill, if you want some sustained like 76 you throw a healing orb. (B) Her damage is too high right now. Having her drain health to get back energy to heal is fine; however, the damage of her abilities is higher than the return. If they nerfed her damage slightly on beam or orb, maybe both, people would focus more on sticking with their team instead of running off to duel enemy characters. With her damage so high at this point, people feel they contribute more doing damage with her than keeping their team alive.
She currently functions as Symmetra but stronger with sustainability in a fight, and that's how people use her.
Don't get me wrong, I love this hero as I can damage and support; however, many people play her as straight damage and neglect their team due to how she works.

All you're saying is she can do good damage and therefore she's encouraged to dps over heal. That would only make sense if dpsing with her over healing was actually the optimal playstyle for her, and if that's the case then you shouldn't be complaining when they're doing the optimal playstyle. If healing is still more effective, then she isn't encouraged not to do it.

Exactly, having a mechanic that people use wrong doesn’t make the design bad, just means the players are bad.

This sums it up perfectly.

[rarhyx]

cant decide what my second golden weapon should be :/

zen, rein, genji, doom, dva, ana (started lately and I'm not the best with her but it's fun)

[Speaknoevil]

Rein or DvA, because it is the most visible in a match.

[Eapoe]

All you're saying is she can do good damage and therefore she's encouraged to dps over heal. That would only make sense if dpsing with her over healing was actually the optimal playstyle for her, and if that's the case then you shouldn't be complaining when they're doing the optimal playstyle. If healing is still more effective, then she isn't encouraged not to do it.



This sums it up perfectly.

Except if that is optimal playstyle then she is not a support character. That would fall in line of saying "76 is support because he can drop an AoE heal, but he does more damage."
She is a support and one of the strongest supports with healing right now, but due to her damage people do not use her as such. If Blizzard nerfed her damage you would see an drastic swing in how people use her.
To counter Deadman's arguement, if you play a character's mechanic to a strength but in the wrong way and you come out on top, that does not mean the player is bad. For instance, many people would say Moira acting as a flanker and not healing her team is bad, but the way she is right now this is a strength of hers, especially at lower ranks, and people play her that way. If it doesn't work that player is bad, but if it does work that player is playing her correctly. You can't have it both ways.
For instance, a Rein charging into 6 people, to Dead, is wrong; however, the times it works because of coordination or just lack of ability of the enemy to capitalize makes it right. Does it always work? No, but it can, and more importantly, does at times.
Take a look at how Mercy used to be. It was not Blizzqrd's intention to have Mercy play "hide and then Rez," which means she was played wrong for numerous seasons. Does that make every player who did it bad? These people used the mechanic in the wrong fashion for what Blizzard designed it for, but because of the design, much like Moira's damage and survivability, means that people take advantage of it.

[Jessicka]

All you're saying is she can do good damage and therefore she's encouraged to dps over heal. That would only make sense if dpsing with her over healing was actually the optimal playstyle for her, and if that's the case then you shouldn't be complaining when they're doing the optimal playstyle. If healing is still more effective, then she isn't encouraged not to do it.

This sums it up perfectly.

Bad players don't need bad design, unintuitive mechanics or frankly encouraging to be bad, they can do that all on their own.

[Deleted]

I had this funny syemtra who kept putting portals near cliffs -__- , my team kept falling off xD

[Speaknoevil]

I honestly have to tell most Moiras who needs healing on our team when I'm playing DPS because they are so unaware of anything other than mewling in pleasure, as they stare slack jawed at their purple orb and beam.

[Post]

Except if that is optimal playstyle then she is not a support character. That would fall in line of saying "76 is support because he can drop an AoE heal, but he does more damage."
She is a support and one of the strongest supports with healing right now, but due to her damage people do not use her as such.

Correction, the people playing her wrong do not use her as such (and it is suboptimal)... that is not a reason to change a hero.

Bad players don't need bad design, unintuitive mechanics or frankly encouraging to be bad, they can do that all on their own.

I agree, so don't screw up Moira because some people are bad.

[DeadmanWalking]

Bad players don't need bad design, unintuitive mechanics or frankly encouraging to be bad, they can do that all on their own.

They are going to do that regardless of the design. Bad Zen players don't use both orbs and just spend the game chucking orbs, one shotting with a charge up encourages players not to spend a second healing their team. Bad Sombra players use hack on any player they see regardless if it actually turns anything off. How many times do I see a Sombra hacking a baby d.va or a Torb who already has thier turret up? Lots. Rheinhardt gets to the choke of Hanamura and shoulder tackles through dying halfway to the enemy because the dream of an instant pick discourages protecting your team from incoming fire.

Hell you could do this with virtually any character in the game, the only thing that will teach people not to play a character wrong is for them to A: fail and B: be told -in a positive manner- how to do it correctly. No player, or person on this planet, will ever react positively to negative criticism. They just think they did nothing wrong and the negative person is just an asshole and need not be heeded. It is human nature.

When I see a Rheinhardt backed into a wall by a Reaper and they hold their shield up paralyzed with inaction I tell them that in that situation the only option you have is to get your hammer on, it knocks the reaper around making it harder for him to shoot for your face. When I see Rhein holding his shield up to a monkey I let them know that his electricity gun ignores the shield and they go hammer time. I'm not a jerk, I'm not emotional, I just tell them what they need to hear in a way that they will receive it in a positive manner.

I see no purpose in changing a character to put them on the rails of desired behavior for bad players.

[Eapoe]

Correction, the people playing her wrong do not use her as such (and it is suboptimal)... that is not a reason to change a hero.



I agree, so don't screw up Moira because some people are bad.

So you're just going to ignore the entire rest of my post that throws a monkey wrench into your arguement?

[Post]

So you're just going to ignore the entire rest of my post that throws a monkey wrench into your arguement?

My reply applies to your entire post...

Correction, the people playing her wrong do not use her as such (and it is suboptimal)... that is not a reason to change a hero.

And if playing her that way was not suboptimal, you wouldn't be complaining because her doing so would be winning games more than her healing is...

[Eapoe]

They are going to do that regardless of the design. Bad Zen players don't use both orbs and just spend the game chucking orbs, one shotting with a charge up encourages players not to spend a second healing their team. Bad Sombra players use hack on any player they see regardless if it actually turns anything off. How many times do I see a Sombra hacking a baby d.va or a Torb who already has thier turret up? Lots. Rheinhardt gets to the choke of Hanamura and shoulder tackles through dying halfway to the enemy because the dream of an instant pick discourages protecting your team from incoming fire.

Hell you could do this with virtually any character in the game, the only thing that will teach people not to play a character wrong is for them to A: fail and B: be told -in a positive manner- how to do it correctly. No player, or person on this planet, will ever react positively to negative criticism. They just think they did nothing wrong and the negative person is just an asshole and need not be heeded. It is human nature.

When I see a Rheinhardt backed into a wall by a Reaper and they hold their shield up paralyzed with inaction I tell them that in that situation the only option you have is to get your hammer on, it knocks the reaper around making it harder for him to shoot for your face. When I see Rhein holding his shield up to a monkey I let them know that his electricity gun ignores the shield and they go hammer time. I'm not a jerk, I'm not emotional, I just tell them what they need to hear in a way that they will receive it in a positive manner.

I see no purpose in changing a character to put them on the rails of desired behavior for bad players.

Except they changed Mercy multiple times. They've changed Symmetra and Widowmaker. They've changed Bastion, Hog, and Junkrat. Granted, not all of these are because of "bad" players, but some have been.
Rein charging thru a point can actually work out. Sure, if they fail they are less likely to do it again, and if they succeed they are more likely to do it. Part of those comes down to learning characters and timing. Sometimes Rein doing a suicide charge is just that, but used for the group. If coordinated, it can turn the choke into the attackers favor as the enemy turns to burn Rein your team is in turn killing them. Hell, its one of the main themes of a dive comp, it's just Rein isn't the best dive tank.
Is the Sombra hacking a baby DVa to keep her out of mech? Is Sombra hacking Torb to keep him from dropping armor packs? Sure, on the surface these are considered dumb things, but in the right hands (and with players that have awareness/aim) these things can lead to picks and turn the tide.
As Rein I have been hacked into a corner with a Reaper coming at me. Sometimes my shield is up because I'm near death and I'm hoping my team will come back soon, or maybe those 1-3 extra seconds I'm alive will let my team push in because Reaper hasn't been able to set back up near the choke. Is it optimal? No, but if I'm low on health and my choice is being killed instantly with my shield down or tie up Reaper for a few seconds, I'd rather tie him up. Hell, sometimes I will jump off a cliff because there's 4 enemies and I'm all that's left. Most people consider that bad play and I should have tried jumping on point for a second. If I'm not able to hold a point solo, why would I give the enemy Ult charge?
There's always things that can be considered dumb/bad play at surface level that may have little intricacies.

- - - Updated - - -

My reply applies to your entire post...



And if playing her that way was not suboptimal, you wouldn't be complaining because her doing so would be winning games more than her healing is...

If people play her to her strengths, 1 of which is as a flanker to opposing support and as an antiflanker to Tracer and Genji, and stay alive, then they are not playing her suboptimally. That is why people play her the way they do as damage dealers while healing is secondary. Her damage is high, both beam and orb, as well as giving her a lot of Ult charge per use.
That doesn't make people playing her bad, that is people using her based on her playstyle.
As someone who typically plays support, Moira is a lot of fun and is definitely strong. Guess what, I've also left my team to go act as a flanker in games, usually netting a pick or 2 while making it back unscathed. Do I do this all the time? No, but in games where we have 2 support and the other one is doing fine then I switch my game up and play backup support, only healing in major team pushes. Am I technically a bad player for doing this? You tell me. If my team doesn't die, I get a pick or 2, and I don't die, am I for playing her strengths to her abilities? Now, flip that, am I a bad player for playing this exact same playstyle but my team dies because of it? If you say yes, then why? I'm still playing to her strengths. The only thing that's changed is my teammates.
As stated, a nerf to her damage and you would see her healing a lot more. The issue comes down to how much.

[Post]

If people play her to her strengths, 1 of which is as a flanker to opposing support and as an antiflanker to Tracer and Genji, and stay alive, then they are not playing her suboptimally.

Then you shouldn't be complaining about her not healing if you think that.

[Speaknoevil]

You people just aren't getting it. You are nitpicking over word choice and not content.

The reality is Moira's design encourages baddies to go DPS because they can finally win against other people(enough of the time) in 1v1 for them to thinkt hey should DPS instead of heal their team.

Make RMB not heal her at all and all of this goes away. It would be like if Mercy's blaster healed her when she used it. So you constantly got people on Mercy running around battlemercying instead of healing.

[Eapoe]

Then you shouldn't be complaining about her not healing if you think that.

That's why I am complaining, or are you so willfully ignorant to overlook the point I've been making. She is a support character with some of the strongest heals in the game (for certain comps), but people aren't playing her that way because she also does good damage. Some might say too much.
When someone picks her as solo heal, for example, but plays her as damage then they effectively leave their team with no support; however, because of this they aren't technically playing her wrong.
Now, let me ask you, if someone goes Mercy and doesn't heal and strictly plays battle Mercy because that player can actually hit shots, or goes Lucio and never turns on healing boost but instead leaves on speed 100%, do you get upset? If you don't, and think you never get upset that a person who can heal you chooses not to, then by all means keep talking about no problem with Moira. If you've ever once complained about not getting healed or would stay completely calm and not care about a battle Mercy, then you need to reevaluate the side of the arguement you're on.