Raiding and M+ are NOT the same content. They need to stop treating it as such.

[Drusin]

So you would rather be forced into only raiding, making dungeons a waste of time once the first tier comes out?

Yes. /10Wakas

[shaunika123]

Every High raider I’ve played with has been keen to use every avenue possible to get that extra 1-2% dps increase.

ofc we are, that doesnt mean we enjoy doing it.

how can you not see the difference.

most high end raiders would tell you they'd rather not farm mythic+ 4 hours a day if they didnt need it for that edge.
ofc we're gonna do it, that's not the question here.

[Marrilaife]

you must've not played early legion
it wasnt half an hour :P
you spent more time outside raids than inside them in fact

Since there is no leggos (good riddance) and best source of AP is planned to be island expeditions, I don't think months long m+ spam is gonna resurface, people will spam until they get equivalent to heroic raid gear what drops from the dungeon, and then do 1 for weekly and forget it.

That won't change much for hardcore mythic raiders - before they spammed hc raid during "split run week", now they will spam m+ for the same goal, after they get the gear, it will no longer be needed to spam it. And since there are no tiers, there's no advantage of raid gear over m+ gear, it's also much easier to stack by armor type in m+ than in raids. No master looter also means m+ > split raiding.

What it might impact the most is heroic raiding - what's the point of being a heroic raider progressing week after week if you can get equal gear from m+ with no lockout no weekly cap and 1 mythic equal piece? What's the appeal of heroic raiding left?

[Drusin]

Only one forcing you to do anything is yourself.

And the RL

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So there's no time attack, no rush, no pressure.

If only I could find 4 other people who didn't give af, it's not just a single persons choice as to what our goal as a group is

[shaunika123]

Since there is no leggos (good riddance) and best source of AP is planned to be island expeditions, I don't think months long m+ spam is gonna resurface, people will spam until they get equivalent to heroic raid gear what drops from the dungeon, and then do 1 for weekly and forget it.

That won't change much for hardcore mythic raiders - before they spammed hc raid during "split run week", now they will spam m+ for the same goal, after they get the gear, it will no longer be needed to spam it. And since there are no tiers, there's no advantage of raid gear over m+ gear, it's also much easier to stack by armor type in m+ than in raids. No master looter also means m+ > split raiding.

What it might impact the most is heroic raiding - what's the point of being a heroic raider progressing week after week if you can get equal gear from m+ with no lockout no weekly cap and 1 mythic equal piece? What's the appeal of heroic raiding left?

you'll spam them precisely because there's no leggos and no sets.
so you can equip a good m+ gear on any slot.
hell like half of the bis items for any class will be from mythic+ since they'Ll have every stat combination.
so yeah.

especially considering raids will give even less loot now cos of the forced PL

[Dacien]

You can skip it, or do the 30 minute run. I hated emissaries, but I did them every day until I got all my legendaries. If you want to be a competitive raider, you are going to have to farm and grind things to be prepared.

I remember when being a competitive raider meant raiding, gearing up, and then tackling more raids. Now it means Mythic Plus, Emissaries, World Quests....

There's so much in this game for so many people. Some people like achievement hunting, some people like leveling alts, some people like progression raiding, and on and on. Why not just let people do what they want to do? There shouldn't be unnecessary overlap.

Imagine being an altoholic but before you could create any new characters you had to defeat a Heroic raid encounter? Or if you just wanted to farm achievements you had to first clear a Mythic Plus dungeon? It's like a theme park where, before you can ride the thrill coaster you're after, you first have to spend thirty minutes doing a lap on the monorail.

[Onikaroshi]

I remember when being a competitive raider meant raiding, gearing up, and then tackling more raids. Now it means Mythic Plus, Emissaries, World Quests....

There's so much in this game for so many people. Some people like achievement hunting, some people like leveling alts, some people like progression raiding, and on and on. Why not just let people do what they want to do? There shouldn't be unnecessary overlap.

Imagine being an altoholic but before you could create any new characters you had to defeat a Heroic raid encounter? Or if you just wanted to farm achievements you had to first clear a Mythic Plus dungeon? It's like a theme park where, before you can ride the thrill coaster you're after, you first have to spend thirty minutes doing a lap on the monorail.

Funny, I remember when raiding involved farming random mid-to-high level dungeons for Elemental Resistance gear, or spending hours farming consumables, or if you warlock, soul shards.

WoD made people lazy, you could do everything required for raiding and never leave your Garrison... need mats? Garrison. Crafting? Garrison. Do a dungeon? Nah fam, you don't need rep or any sort of currency from even the daily.

[Dacien]

Funny, I remember when raiding involved farming random mid-to-high level dungeons for Elemental Resistance gear, or spending hours farming consumables, or if you warlock, soul shards.

WoD made people lazy, you could do everything required for raiding and never leave your Garrison... need mats? Garrison. Crafting? Garrison. Do a dungeon? Nah fam, you don't need rep or any sort of currency from even the daily.

I guess that's true. I started raiding seriously in Cata, and man, those were the days. You want to raid seriously? Then raid seriously, that's it. Maybe a bit of non raid stuff after a patch would be necessary, but that's it.

Edit: And yeah, WoD too! Did a bit of it and that was great too!

[Sticky]

I wonder when people will stop using this argument.

if you are a mythic raider you are absolutely forced to do mythic+ there is no way around it.

you dont "feel" forced, you ARE forced.

...then don't raid Mythic? I mean, it's hard, and you should want to be the best you can be.

[Onikaroshi]

I guess that's true. I started raiding seriously in Cata, and man, those were the days. You want to raid seriously? Then raid seriously, that's it. Maybe a bit of non raid stuff after a patch would be necessary, but that's it.

Was legion excessive? Probably. WoD just kind of took it to the opposite extreme. But hell, even in MoP you still had reps to grind to get patterns and things. There was ALWAYS lazy people, but usually there were really determined people who made up for it.

WoD made Raid loggers happy, but not the rest of the populace.

[Dacien]

Was legion excessive? Probably. But hell, even in MoP you still had reps to grind to get patterns and things. There was ALWAYS lazy people, WoD just kind of took it to the opposite extreme.

Made Raid loggers happy, but not the rest of the populace.

I just... all I enjoy after a decade+ of WoW anymore are the top-notch raid encounters. I'm excited for WoW Classic to bring back that original immersive leveling experience that I anticipate enjoying, but WoW 2018 it's all raids for me.

[shaunika123]

...then don't raid Mythic? I mean, it's hard, and you should want to be the best you can be.

not the point, but thanks for the input.

we were doing fine without having to spam dungeons to competitively raid high end content for over 10 years.

[Sticky]

not the point, but thanks for the input.

we were doing fine without having to spam dungeons to competitively raid high end content for over 10 years.

If you're doing fine, then there's absolutely no reason you should feel forced to do M+.

[RoKPaNda]

Are you in a world first guild? No? Then you AREN'T FORCED INTO SHIT. You don't have to do it, if you don't want to spend 20 minutes running a really easy dungeon each week, just don't do it. Simple. Seriously, especially now that there are no legendaries, you really don't have to run your weekly. I mean should you? Sure it's FREE LOOT for minimal effort, but if you hate it that much just don't do it.

Or are you in some sort of unreasonable guild that's NOT a world first guild but is going to try to force you into things? If so, well, then you need to find a new guild.

[durrtygoodz]

If only I could find 4 other people who didn't give af, it's not just a single persons choice as to what our goal as a group is

If you're a raider, you have a whole guild of friends to choose from.

[Sticky]

If you're a raider, you have a whole guild of friends to choose from.

Exactly. Find a good guild and none of this is an issue.

[shaunika123]

If you're doing fine, then there's absolutely no reason you should feel forced to do M+.

unfortunately that's not how this works, but since you're just obviously trolling, i'm not gonna bother anymore

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Exactly. Find a good guild and none of this is an issue.

even the best guilds in the world complained how fucking grueling it was, but sure

[Dacien]

Are you in a world first guild? No? Then you AREN'T FORCED INTO SHIT. You don't have to do it, if you don't want to spend 20 minutes running a really easy dungeon each week, just don't do it. Simple. Seriously, especially now that there are no legendaries, you really don't have to run your weekly. I mean should you? Sure it's FREE LOOT for minimal effort, but if you hate it that much just don't do it.

Or are you in some sort of unreasonable guild that's NOT a world first guild but is going to try to force you into things? If so, well, then you need to find a new guild.

This poor old horse has been beaten to death, but I'll wade into the territory to offer the rationale anew for fresh eyes. You see, you're there for your team. You do your best, you execute your rotation as perfectly as possible every attempt (while observing mechanics) so that you can all slam your fist into the table in exuberance. But, even if you perform perfectly, even if you execute a near-perfect rotation, more than can be asked for over hundreds of attempts, you might still have had enough to push that boss over the last bit instead of wiping on Mythic KJ at 11 million HP, a fraction of a percent of health left, if you had done your weekly Mythic Plus. Your pyroblasts would have hit hard enough to push you into victory.

A lot of good progression raiding guilds aren't forcing their raiders to do Mythic Plus weeklies, they're asking their raiders to do it for the team. My guild got Mythic KJ two days before the release of the next content patch, with only a few people left alive at the end. We barely got Cutting Edge. Granted we had attendance issues in the last month, but if we were all skipping weekly Mythic Plus, we probably wouldn't have had the extra oomph we needed for it. It is to this day the proudest accomplishment I've ever had in WoW, even above Heroic Ragnaros.

And it wouldn't have been possible if we all weren't dutifully accomplishing our weekly Mythic Plus.

It's about the team, it's about the drive, it's not about demands or requirements. But you know what a lot of us would prefer? Just to raid.

[God Save The King]

I remember when being a competitive raider meant raiding, gearing up, and then tackling more raids. Now it means Mythic Plus, Emissaries, World Quests....

There's so much in this game for so many people. Some people like achievement hunting, some people like leveling alts, some people like progression raiding, and on and on. Why not just let people do what they want to do? There shouldn't be unnecessary overlap.

Imagine being an altoholic but before you could create any new characters you had to defeat a Heroic raid encounter? Or if you just wanted to farm achievements you had to first clear a Mythic Plus dungeon? It's like a theme park where, before you can ride the thrill coaster you're after, you first have to spend thirty minutes doing a lap on the monorail.

You can skip all that content and still raid if you want. You only need to do it if you're pushing world firsts. I did it until I got my 2 BiS legendaries. I've done like 50 M+'s across all of Legion... Still killed Argus in the top 500.

[Marrilaife]

I guess that's true. I started raiding seriously in Cata, and man, those were the days.

Cata and WOD were the biggest raid logger paradises. Unfortunately that meant the majority of casual playerbase had "nothing to do", so both of these expansions were extremely badly received by the audience, and Blizzard had to change something.

Usually you had to farm stuff to raid, just the extent of farming differed and how long it took you to reach "completed" stage. Stuff like sons of hodir rep for shoulder enchant in wotlk, attunements in vanilla / tbc, resist gear, tons of various consumables (who remembers weapon oils? and random drop scrolls? and dark runes? and sharpening stones? and all other possible min max crap), grinding professions for perks, reps for head enchants, not even mentioning old school stuff like farming up your weapon skills and locks farming soul shards.

I do miss times when you grinded rep to exalted and then you were done until another patch introduced a new rep with new set of dailies. In Legion it never ended due to legendaries (and paragon caches, but these are vanity not a raid necessity). But I can't deny rep / dailies farming was a thing, consumable farming was a thing (though early Legion herb farming for pots was worst since vanilla). Dungeon farming for badges was a thing too in tbc / wotlk. Except dungeons didn't scale so at some point they became completely outgeared by raiders. M+ solves that.