Kinda fed up with the horde being lead by Villains.

[Rend Blackhand]

Started to feel like a lot of people are beginning to miss Garrosh. He never did anything half as bad as Sylvanas gets away with.

[Dagoth Ur]

Eh, think you're getting ahead of yourself a bit. Everything she's done so far can be justified one way or the other. She's ruthless and pragmatic sure, but she never did something evil just for evil's sake as far as I remember. She just plays to win and doesn't care if it gets ugly, which is perfectly fine to like or dislike. Let's just wait and see a bit more of this whole arc before jumping to conclusions.

[judgementofantonidas]

Not really. Forsaken are the only hard villains and the OP is right to be annoyed that they're being lead by one who's openly flaunting how evil they are.
It doesn't take much to paint Vol'jin or Thrall as good guys, hell, even Garrosh had a pretty good argument until he started messing around with old gods and going full Hitler out of the blue, but Sylvanas has been bad from day one and usually got away with it because she's a continent away from the rest of the horde and doing it on the sly - since she became warchief it's been absolutely retarded when she's doing it in the limelight, stage front and center.

Sylvanas is fantastic as a faction leader.
She simply doesn't work as warchief.

undead, orcs, trolls, elves that mess with the wrong kind of magic, minotaurs, all evil most other places but wow.

[Tripzzz]

You mean you don't find the repetitive internal conflict within the Horde interesting? I mean sure the conflict is 100% forced and completely retarded. But....but....but....... INTERNAL CONFLICT! Frankly, you should be grateful you were given such an interesting (totally not rehashed) plotline. LMAO.

[Fetus Rex]

What Blizzard needs to stop is not to put 'villains' in charge but to treat lore more seriously. In realistic setting only a villain can run a state. There can't be law and order without secret services cutting throats in dark alleys and faked suicides(as in performed by intelligence on dissidents).

They need to up their in game lore propaganda too and enter mundane grounded rhetorics. If they showed up little orc kid washed up in Barrens and present it as victim of Theramore(no matter the real reason for its death) then Garrosh popularity would rise.

Blizzard needs to start playing at least minimum of mind games with their playerbase. Rumors of Garrosh willing to use Sha? Counter strike conspiracies with forged ones to make the real one appear as nothing more than joke 'Garrosh wishes to confiscate oblong Tauren totems', 'Shadow Council transformed into Blood Elves, citizens of Silvermoon can't sleep safely' 'Sylvanas is poisoning the wells and turning grass frogs gray, soon they will go extinct!' 'Black Goat with seven eyes is after Demon Hunters blindfolds'.

[Polygons]

Who do you see as becoming the new Warchief if she dies? I want to see another orc, but there's not a lot of cool notable orcs left. I would imagine if Thrall confronts Sylvannas and they fight, Thrall would die (because he's weaker now) alternate Grommash and Durotan would find out and show up to kill her (why not, we have mag'har) They respect Thrall. Grommash could lead the new Horde and be a solid leader who swears to uphold Thrall's values. They could also raise his kid to become a new notable orc.

Saurfang would be my next choice, then Rexxar or Drek'thar. If none of those then I suggest Gallywix.

[Zandalariprelate]

Who do you see as becoming the new Warchief if she dies? I want to see another orc, but there's not a lot of cool notable orcs left. I would imagine if Thrall confronts Sylvannas and they fight, Thrall would die (because he's weaker now) alternate Grommash and Durotan would find out and show up to kill her (why not, we have mag'har) They respect Thrall. Grommash could lead the new Horde and be a solid leader who swears to uphold Thrall's values. They could also raise his kid to become a new notable orc.

Saurfang would be my next choice, then Rexxar or Drek'thar. If none of those then I suggest Gallywix.

AU Genderbend Thrall and leader of the iron orcs probably will get some development during this expansion and whooala new warchief orc and female

[mickybrighteyes]

She killed her own people who just wanted to be with their families again, not even garrosh of that much a monster

Considering how he viewed other horde factions... his view of non-orcs wasn't much better.

Do keep in mind that the event you're referring to appeared to be a coup on behalf of a foreign leader orchestrated in part by the desolate council (the forsaken attending).

[Powerogue]

The horde's greatest strength is its weakness. It is, right there in its description, more of an "alliance of convenience" between races involved where they maintain more of their individual identity. As a consequence, they tend to fight more.

The alliance has had some, but when you look at the characters what motivation do they have TO in-fight with each other and vie for supremacy?

Though I'd say if they did want more of that, I'd say instigate it with Velen wanting to stay out of BFA's conflict for fear of his home becoming a target, and Tyrande wanting to go on the warpath and burn Orgrimmar to the ground, furious that a child (who has not earned her respect like Varian did) is demanding they focus their efforts on the Eastern Kingdoms.

[Wildberry]

Started to feel like a lot of people are beginning to miss Garrosh. He never did anything half as bad as Sylvanas gets away with.

Speaking on behalf of everyone, yes we do.

[Al Gorefiend]

Hate to break it to you all, but with the current lore revelations, Sylvanas is going to end up being the grand savior of Azeroth. Whether she currently knows so and is acting on that destiny or she doesn't yet know so, and it's going to drop like a bombshell that suddenly the Alliance needs her.

[The Emperor]

And I like being a villain. Good guy/honor obsessed guy is just so stupid and doesn't reflect reality at all!

[sam86]

They said Garrosh was the endboss at Mists launch: you couldn't do shit about it until the final raid.

give me a single interview or official blizzard post prior to 4.1 that Garrosh would end as MoP last tier boss and i'll add it to my signature beside blizz 'favoring horde' one
they didn't, the idea to turn a capital city to a raiding dungeon was not expected, i knew blizz is 'horde biased' but didn't know they 'love' horde so much that they want to make players fuck their warchief on weekly basis and defile their capital too
regarding topic (lol if i use the @ mark, there is a member called topic?) : I'm also fed and probably why i didn't pre-order BFA and may skip it, for me reason n1 to play was always lore, and this is NOT the horde we were presented in wc3 at all

[Zulkhan]

Do people think Garrosh WOULDN'T have killed people trying to defect to the Alliance? Heck I'd be surprised if Garrosh allowed the meeting to happen in the first place.

Garrosh would have beheaded Faol faster than he could have said "Greetings".

[Deleted]

Garrosh would have beheaded Faol faster than he could have said "Greetings".

Exactly. Sylvanas killed her own subordinates for what she viewed as signs of defecting / treason. Garrosh was lashing out at every Horde race which he saw as inferior to his mighty orc race. In this regard, Sylvanas is a much better leader of the Horde. She did not have installed her elite troops in Orgrimmar to control the city in Legion, like Garrosh did with Kokron in Undercity, for example.

[steelballfc]

I love it, nothing wrong with being the bad guys so long as its fun. And we all know the allies can never be anything but the self rightious do gooders that can never break the mold lest all the guys with “paladin” in their signatures shit a literal brick.

but again we horde players didn't sign to play evil faction, i would have played LORT or Starwars and played pure evil faction.

- - - Updated - - -

Started to feel like a lot of people are beginning to miss Garrosh. He never did anything half as bad as Sylvanas gets away with.

i miss carine.

- - - Updated - - -

The problem is not that the Horde is "led by villains".
The problem is that Blizzard thinks Alliance = good and Horde = evil is good and deep writing that appeals to their fanbase.

It's pathetic.

Blizzard : we don't have more bad-guys, *in case of emergency breakglass* " make the warchife evil"

[Wildberry]

Exactly. Sylvanas killed her own subordinates for what she viewed as signs of defecting / treason. Garrosh was lashing out at every Horde race which he saw as inferior to his mighty orc race. In this regard, Sylvanas is a much better leader of the Horde.

Garrosh simply asked them to do more, they chose not to. We see that as late as "Tides of War" Garrosh is concerned about winning over dissidents. As far as punishing arguably treasonous subordinates goes, let's not forget that Garrosh tolerated outright death threats from Vol'jin, Baine leveraging his loyalty and support to try and force policy change, numerous secret "anti-Warchief" meetings that went unpunished, etc.

But hey, don't let facts stop you! Garrosh was awful and Sylvanas is justified in everything she does, right?

She did not have installed her elite troops in Orgrimmar to control the city in Legion, like Garrosh did with Kokron in Undercity, for example.

The Kor'kron were placed in Undercity by Thrall. After Sylvanas temporarily lost the city (and a number of its abomination guards) to Varimathras' coup. As far as "controlling" things goes, there's a passage in "Before the Storm," where Sylvanas says outright that she wants to appoint a Troll leader she can control.

you dont even know half of what's coming lore wise... sylvanas is a hero

Currently, Sylvanas is objectively worse than Garrosh was. If they turn around and redeem her at this point, it's going to be a cringefest for a number of reasons.

[Kieldon]

I don't mind playing bad guys. If they make sense. Problem is, they don't.

Garrosh could do a little mistake and the whole Horde is rebelling in a second. Sylvanas casually tells everyone it's time to kill Malfurion and all the druids are ok with it.

[Rageadon]

Im more tierd of the "we have to unite and fight the common enemy, then after that we can fight against eachother again"

[Deleted]

I don't mind playing bad guys. If they make sense. Problem is, they don't.

Garrosh could do a little mistake and the whole Horde is rebelling in a second. Sylvanas casually tells everyone it's time to kill Malfurion and all the druids are ok with it.

The only way Slyvannas being a tyrant and everyone following makes sense is if the Horde is geniually afraid of its existence. Which doesn't work since the Horde is the open aggressors. Everything about it is dumb as fuck.