Sylvanas DOES fit the Horde faction fantasy

[Rasula Elfbiter]

Very well then. You want to say,that the current Horde is the same as the original Orcish Horde. If you do,then I tell you this -it's a faction,that has to be put down and Daelin Proudmoore did nothing wrong. Also,if your Horde is based solely on warlocks and bloothirsty warriors,it makes no sense for a paladin such as Liadrin, pandaren and tauren races in general, to do anything with the faction,who's ultimate goal is to drown the Azeroth in death and destruction.

It's not the same as the original Horde.
But it relies heavily on the same tropes, and been drifting there since Cata. WoD cemented it, as pointed above.
People want to play recognizeable orcs, trolls, goblins and undead as in WC2, but want more depth in them, and vanilla originally had them in very light shades of grey. But over the years Blizz shifted it closer to WC1/2 level of evilness, complete with 'pillage and burn' power fantasy for players who want to play as bad guys.

Blood Elves (and Nightbourne) are the rough equivalent of Alterac 'allies' of the Old Horde, only with stronger ties to their green-skinned friends. Also Light isn't good is pretty much cemented with recent lore, so no problem with Liadrin.
Tauren were introduced as a replacement for ogres as big muscle guys in the Horde theme, and given there were plenty of them in Darkshore, I doubt they're innocent. Oh and blood elves too.
Pandas are a statistical error.

I would also want to add that in-faction rivalry, backstabbing and conflict between honorable warriors and honorless sorcerers exists in the Horde since earliest days. Now we essentially have Gul'dan and Doomhammer reversed - an outright villainous magic-user Sylvanas leads, and more honorable warriors Baine and Saurfan have to grudgingly obey. But it's almost a given it'll end with a coup.

Also, yes, Daelin Proudmoore did nothing wrong. In fact Thrall and Rexxar murdering him before Jaina's eyes as a proof they aren't murdering bastards anymore, was when the golden light halo painted around the New Horde in WCIII shattered for me.
Because the Alliance did spare Orgrim's life under the same circumstances.

[owbu]

We are playing as the WC III horde, though. Which the MoP story confirmed by setting up an old Horde guy and then telling the story of how we are getting rid of him, because he is not what the WCIII horde stands for.

And then Blizzard decided that didn't happen, because we need another faction conflict. The Forsaken from Before the Storm fit into the Horde just fine (decent people who are shunned by "we are the true people" human jerks). Sylvanas does not. She fits in with all the people we killed over the years.

[Soikona]

We are playing as the WC III horde, though. Which the MoP story confirmed by setting up an old Horde guy and then telling the story of how we are getting rid of him, because he is not what the WCIII horde stands for.

And then Blizzard decided that didn't happen, because we need another faction conflict. The Forsaken from Before the Storm fit into the Horde just fine (decent people who are shunned by "we are the true people" human jerks). Sylvanas does not. She fits in with all the people we killed over the years.

Talking about before the storm, it does seem like she is on her way to be replaced!

[Felixon]

It's not the same as the original Horde.
But it relies heavily on the same tropes, and been drifting there since Cata. WoD cemented it, as pointed above.
People want to play recognizeable orcs, trolls, goblins and undead as in WC2, but want more depth in them, and vanilla originally had them in very light shades of grey. But over the years Blizz shifted it closer to WC1/2 level of evilness, complete with 'pillage and burn' power fantasy for players who want to play as bad guys.

Blood Elves (and Nightbourne) are the rough equivalent of Alterac 'allies' of the Old Horde, only with stronger ties to their green-skinned friends. Also Light isn't good is pretty much cemented with recent lore, so no problem with Liadrin.
Tauren were introduced as a replacement for ogres as big muscle guys in the Horde theme, and given there were plenty of them in Darkshore, I doubt they're innocent. Oh and blood elves too.
Pandas are a statistical error.

I would also want to add that in-faction rivalry, backstabbing and conflict between honorable warriors and honorless sorcerers exists in the Horde since earliest days. Now we essentially have Gul'dan and Doomhammer reversed - an outright villainous magic-user Sylvanas leads, and more honorable warriors Baine and Saurfan have to grudgingly obey. But it's almost a given it'll end with a coup.

Also, yes, Daelin Proudmoore did nothing wrong. In fact Thrall and Rexxar murdering him before Jaina's eyes as a proof they aren't murdering bastards anymore, was when the golden light halo painted around the New Horde in WCIII shattered for me.
Because the Alliance did spare Orgrim's life under the same circumstances.

So,you do believe,that the Horde is bluntly evil and the Alliance is bluntly good?No other way around,no good/bad characters on both sides and the Horde now is all about the slaughter of innocents and conquering? Actually,what keeps the Horde together and what makes em "family" is war and nothing else. As I wrote in other posts,if the Alliance would eventually be defeated,Stormwind burned to the ground,races of the Alliance either killed or enslaved - in time,a new war would errupt.

Even if whole Azeroth would be under Horde's dominion,applying the same brilliant logic of Sylvanas,the surviving races would be at each others throats. Probably,that would be the New Horde - trolls/taurens/orcs/goblins,not sure about the blood elves,nightborne and some pandaren, against empowered Sylvanas,who would want to turn the Azeroth into a realm of dead. Why? Because the forsaken joined the Horde bluntly out of convenience and pragmatism,not because they would care about the Horde or it's ideals. Remember that on Draenor,as soon as the draenei,arrakoa and other races got slaughtered by the orcs,they were at each others throats,clan against the clan like in old times. So yea,it seems,that truly,the sole thing that keeps the current Horde together is some kind of delusional goal to eliminate the Alliance for sake of eliminating it - so that there would be something to do for the Horde. Without the war,the Horde would eventually fall apart,while the Alliance,which literally is an military union of different races,would co-exist.

[Rasula Elfbiter]

So,you do believe,that the Horde is bluntly evil and the Alliance is bluntly good?No other way around,no good/bad characters on both sides and the Horde now is all about the slaughter of innocents and conquering? Actually,what keeps the Horde together and what makes em "family" is war and nothing else. As I wrote in other posts,if the Alliance would eventually be defeated,Stormwind burned to the ground,races of the Alliance either killed or enslaved - in time,a new war would errupt.

Even if whole Azeroth would be under Horde's dominion,applying the same brilliant logic of Sylvanas,the surviving races would be at each others throats. Probably,that would be the New Horde - trolls/taurens/orcs/goblins,not sure about the blood elves,nightborne and some pandaren, against empowered Sylvanas,who would want to turn the Azeroth into a realm of dead. Why? Because the forsaken joined the Horde bluntly out of convenience and pragmatism,not because they would care about the Horde or it's ideals. Remember that on Draenor,as soon as the draenei,arrakoa and other races got slaughtered by the orcs,they were at each others throats,clan against the clan like in old times. So yea,it seems,that truly,the sole thing that keeps the current Horde together is some kind of delusional goal to eliminate the Alliance for sake of eliminating it - so that there would be something to do for the Horde. Without the war,the Horde would eventually fall apart,while the Alliance,which literally is an military union of different races,would co-exist.

In BfA, yes, Horde is leaning towards bluntly evil and Alliance towards bluntly good.

However, the rest of what you say here has little to do with what I'm bringing up in my post, I'm not giving moral judgment to Sylvanas but pointing out at her similarities to certain Horde figures of Warcraft 1-2 era, therefore her fitting the Horde as it shifts towards Old Horde concept at many points.

Just making it clear, IMO the whole "New Horde has nothing to do with Old Horde" (concept-wise) is pretty much outdated, it was a huge selling point in War3 and partially in Vanilla, with orcs reimagined as noble savages and Thrall being the Warchief. But Blizz constantly makes references to Warcraft 2 era with orcs as brutal conquerors, starting with whole Garrosh's expansion war in Cata and early MoP when he was still 'ours', then WoD being essentially a huge throwback to War2 with all old clans and their leaders in play, orcish ironclads and foundries, naval war, oil etc. Now BfA not only borrows Warcraft 2's tagline ("The Battle for Azeroth continues over land, sea and air"), it prertty much brings back the faction conflict to War2 era level, which is all but written in neon glowing letter all over the product. Heck, even the cover art is a remix of classic Orcs and Humans box.
And that's where Sylvanas works very well, precisely as Gul'dan, Teron and Ner'zhul worked 14 years ago.

[Skirdus]

Old Horde ≠ New Horde

[roboscorcher]

The annoying thing about Sylvannas is that she is Garrosh 2.0. No real motivations were given for her aggression, and her being an elf instead of an orc makes it even less believable.

Also, I feel like MoP was all about healing the divide between the factions. Since Anduin died, it's like no one remembers what happened in Pandaria.

[Deleted]

OP, you would have a point if Garrosh was still Warchief and was being a warmonger and Sylvanas was a trusted lieutenant carrying out the burning of Teldrassil. Then it would make sense.

It does NOT make sense to just overthrow a supposed 'madman' and villain, only for an even bigger villain to take over and to brush her behaviour off as normal.

Sylvanas should've been the one overthrown while Garrosh should be the morally grey one that gets away with it. Blizzard f*cked up.

[SleepsAtDay]

The problem are just the forsaken. Why are they still part of the Horde? Why is the rest of the Horde ignoring what they are doing?

Long-time undead players that you can’t just write out of the faction without losing massive subs.

[Trassk]

Oh boy... Another in-depth Sylvanas analysis. Thrilling...

I wouldn't mind them so much, if people were realistic with how evil she actually is rather then trying to justify her evil shit.

[Kithelle]

SoO happened because Gary pissed off half the Horde, the Alliance and the pandas.

Sylvi is on her way to pissing off anything not undead. And half the undead as well to boot. This will be another SoO. There is no other way to end her. Blizzard could try to write a redemption story but it will be the most forced writing ever.

Nah...never gonna happen.

Sylvanas has to many white knights defending her brea....honor. They're going to give her some stupid unbelievable redemption story that is even less acceptable than AU Grom.

- - - Updated - - -

I wouldn't mind them so much, if people were realistic with how evil she actually is rather then trying to justify her evil shit.

You mean blame anything that isn't her? Like old gods, loa, or even Anduin?

That try to portray her as a innocent little flower just trying to survive in a dark world?

[Super Dickmann]

The problem is that Blizzard writes WarCraft 1+2 Horde and then has the guts to tell everyone that it's the misunderstood dindu WarCraft 3/Vanilla Horde.

This is the heart of the issue. Drop the morally grey meme term and just admit what you're doing, I'm into it. Just say it's the WC2 Horde and that's how it'll stick and I'll have more fun with it knowing I won't be beaten over the head with noblesavagery.

[shaunika123]

The problem is that Blizzard writes WarCraft 1+2 Horde and then has the guts to tell everyone that it's the misunderstood dindu WarCraft 3/Vanilla Horde.

could it be that the horde is not one homogenous entity and has different characters in it with varying degrees between those two extremes?

should I call the entire alliance petty bloodthirsty suicidal psycopaths because you guys have genn?

Sure sylvanas is being unreasonable (understatement of the century) but you would be too if a sniveling dog robbed you and your people's chance at immortality.

[Deleted]

could it be that the horde is not one homogenous entity and has different characters in it with varying degrees between those two extremes?

No it's not. So my followup question would be, what the actual fuck are the Tauren doing in the Horde?

[SleepsAtDay]

No it's not. So my followup question would be, what the actual fuck are the Tauren doing in the Horde?

Karma tanking.

[Deleted]

No, SoO happened cause a lot of Alliance and some Horde started wailing about being too nasty. In never actually understood why the Horde is supposed to feel bad for killing Alliance. In fact the Horde has to feel bad for just about everything, starting from honorable orcs who are in fact ravenous murderers up to undead multiplying by turning dumbass Alliance soldiers who attack them. What's whit the constant guilt tripping? Why the outrage? Why are you using femonazy tactics? "WHY AREN'T YOU OUTRAGED?" "HOW CAN YOU ALLOW THIS?".

My personal opinion is that conflict between the factions is good, no faction should be heavily favored and factions should be separated, their only interaction being conflict and not moronic fraternity. Quit trying to turn the Horde against their leader again, quit trying to guilt-trip Blizzard into complying with your immature demands, allow the fucking story to flow without trying to flood it with your tears.

My problems with Garrosh started right after he was appointed Warchief, because of a quite important dialogue between him and Saurfang right at the beginning of WotLK in the Borean Tundra, where Saurfang was lecturing Garrosh about war and logistics, and Garrosh was only "muh testosterone!". This did not change in Cataclysm (like Trump, Garrosh was just not able to step up to the game), Garrosh was still the one who wants to be in the middle of the action, instead of working strategically. The opening of the Twilight Highlands, where Garrosh sacrifices his entire fleet because he was eager to kill the Alliance, not thinking that there might be some unknown danger in this area. Pathetic. Someone with that mindset should be there leading the charge, but not more. Saurfang should have been made Warchief instead, while Garrosh would have excelled being the Orc Champion.

And in MoP, I was a bit tired about the whole Horde vs. Alliance, because there was a different threat. And it was heartbreaking to see how the fight destroyed the Jade Serpent statue. Honestly, at that point I wished that some other force would show up, destroying both Horde and Alliance and forcing the remaining survivors to band together with the Pandaren to combat it. Unfortunately, we got a different story and SoO as culmination of it. And now, after the Class Orders have been in charge after the Factions failed at the Broken Shore (mainly due to the incompetence of the Alliance intelligence), we get a repetition. :/

[shaunika123]

No it's not. So my followup question would be, what the actual fuck are the Tauren doing in the Horde?

I mean... should they just secede and get buttfucked by both the alliance and the horde at the same time?

sylvanas runs a pretty good PR campaign on why this war is just, and baine is a huge pussy.
so it's not surprising they're still in the horde.

[Aydinx2]

Except WoD basically confirmed that orcs were always genocidal, they just lacked the means to do it. If you give them demon blood/goblin technology, they start killing everything around them.

Alternate timeline, alternate behaviour.
The Naaru in WoD are much more aggressive than the ones we have, and the Garrosh we got was the worst version of all Garroshes.
If anything the fact that the WoD horde is genocidal just proves the one we had wasn't.

[Super Dickmann]

Alternate timeline, alternate behaviour.
The Naaru in WoD are much more aggressive than the ones we have, and the Garrosh we got was the worst version of all Garroshes.
If anything the fact that the WoD horde is genocidal just proves the one we had wasn't.

How? The orcs hadn't drunk the demon blood when they first attacked the draenei in the MU either, they were just tricked. Orcs are naturally warlike and the only differentiation between the WoD timeline and ours was stuff like Grom not having a son and Ner'zhul's wife being alive, not culture-wide differences.

[Deleted]

The Horde in Warcraft doesn't even have a class fantasy. It's a mixed bag of way too many different races.

Just Orcs, Trolls and Goblins are the races that should make up a Horde-type faction (just like in Warhammer).
There are so many incompatible races added over the years that it's more like a Horde circus now.